Will there be a Eastern-rite Pope this century?

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Mhm. But both are true in West and East. If you specify calendar…

One can not say Pope is infallible and Latins have to believe in it, bur Greeks don’t. One can not say that for someone Catholic Church is Church from the Scripture and for someone it is Orthodox Church.

Why is Truth not relative? Because Truth is a person. Jesus Christ is not relative for us… He is same for everyone.

 

[AlNg]

The date of Easter is not a dogma.

If something is true, it is true in the West and in the East all the same.

Some Eastern Orthodox say the calendar is related to dogma. But in any case the truth varies and is not the same in the East and in the West.
In the West it is true that Easter was April 12, 2020.
In the East (EO Church) it is true that Easter is April 19, 2020.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Some Eastern Orthodox say the calendar is related to dogma

How do they support that claim?

But in any case the truth varies and is not the same in the East and in the West.

So would you say Christianity is False Religion in China but true Religion in Europe? If Truth is relative, then there’s no point in finding it… in finding Him, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who said “I am the Truth, Way and Life”. You took that out of context. It is true in the West that Easter is going to be April 19, 2020 as much as in the East. It is true that East is going to celebrate that Easter, but even Eastern Orthodox in the West will have it.

 

[AlNg]

So would you say Christianity is False Religion in China but true Religion in Europe?

I did not say this. I claim the following:

In the West it is true that Easter was April 12, 2020.
In the East (EO Church) it is true that Easter is April 19, 2020

 

[AlNg]

How do they support that claim?

It is the calendar issue in the Orthodox Church with the Old Calendar people holding out.
https://www.goarch.org/-/the-calendar-of-the-orthodox-church
" The main reason for its [Gregorian calendar] rejection was that the celebration of Easter would be altered: contrary to the injunctions of canon 7 of the Holy Apostles, the decree of the First Ecumenical Synod, and canon 1 of Ancyra, Easter would sometimes coincide with the Jewish Passover in the Gregorian calendar."

 

[Wandile]

OrbisNonSufficit:

So would you say Christianity is False Religion in China but true Religion in Europe?

I did not say this. I claim the following:

In the West it is true that Easter was April 12, 2020.
In the East (EO Church) it is true that Easter is April 19, 2020

Simply put truth is not relative. What’s true in the west is true in the east, north and south too

• God is a trinity. That’s true no matter where
• The Son of God died for our sins is true everywhere
• The Mother of God was immaculately conceived is true everywhere.

Truth is not relative. The date of Easter is not dogma but simply a nicene recommendation. The church has the authority to change that if she wants but has sought not to. It’s a feast day like any other.

Dogmas are universal truths.

 

[Wandile]

OrbisNonSufficit:

How do they support that claim?

It is the calendar issue in the Orthodox Church with the Old Calendar people holding out.
The Calendar of the Orthodox Church - Liturgy & Worship - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
" The main reason for its [Gregorian calendar] rejection was that the celebration of Easter would be altered: contrary to the injunctions of canon 7 of the Holy Apostles, the decree of the First Ecumenical Synod, and canon 1 of Ancyra, Easter would sometimes coincide with the Jewish Passover in the Gregorian calendar."

It’s still just a feast day and the church has authority to Overturn her previous ruling on dating a feast day. It’s disciplinary. The old calendarists are nothing more than Eastern Orthodox sedevacantists in the sense that just because they claim something doesn’t make it true. The dating of Easter is church guideline not dogma.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

In the West it is true that Easter was April 12, 2020.
In the East (EO Church) it is true that Easter is April 19, 2020

Both are true in the West but also in the East.

 

[AlNg]

It’s disciplinary.

That is the Catholic POV. There are those who disagree saying the date of Easter is more than that.

Dogmas are universal truths.

Yes. But not all truths are dogmas.

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

Some Eastern Orthodox say the calendar is related to dogma. But in any case the truth varies and is not the same in the East and in the West.
In the West it is true that Easter was April 12, 2020.
In the East (EO Church) it is true that Easter is April 19, 2020.

Yes. But mystically we are both celebrating the Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, albeit in different earthly days, but since the Liturgy is outside of time we are both celebrating in Eternity together.

AlNg:

Some Eastern Orthodox say the calendar is related to dogma

How do they support that claim?

The “Eastern Orthodox” who say the calendar is related to dogma are the Old Calendarists, and they are mostly extremely traditional schismatics who also claim other extreme positions. Similar to what @Wandile said, they are essentially the Sedavecantists of the Orthosphere. Their main group, HOCNA also revived the Name-Worshipping heresy recently and has taught erroneously that Hell is not a physical place. It is best to stay clear of them.

 

[Wandile]

Wandile:

It’s disciplinary.

That is the Catholic POV. There are those who disagree saying the date of Easter is more than that.

Those guys aren’t even legitimate voices in the east.

Wandile:

Dogmas are universal truths.

Yes. But not all truths are dogmas.

Yes but all truths are universal. 1+1=2 is not a dogma of faith but nonetheless is true whenever you go because truth is objective not relative. A shirt cannot he black in the east but blue in the west.

 

[AlNg]

Yes but all truths are universal. 1+1=2 is not a dogma of faith but nonetheless is true whenever you go

No. 1+1 does not equal 2 if you are adding velocities according to relativity. For example if c is the speed of light c+c does not equal 2c.

 

[Wandile]

Wandile:

Yes but all truths are universal. 1+1=2 is not a dogma of faith but nonetheless is true whenever you go

No. 1+1 does not equal 2 if you are adding velocities according to relativity. For example if c is the speed of light c+c does not equal 2c.

You know exactly what I meant. In an ordinary number system, 1 object and another object means there are two objects not more or less. Or else when you hold an orange in one hand and an orange in the other, you doubt there are anything else but two oranges in your possession?

Secondly in the case of velocities, that’s an instance that leads to a universal answer that in velocities it can never be another answer in the north, south, east or west than what is given when you add velocities according to relativity in the instance it relates. So again the truth is universal.

This is a simple philosophical axiom. You cannot actively be both two opposites in the same instance in same respect. That is called a contradiction.

 

[otjm]

Could it provide a means to build greater unity between the Catholic and Orthodox churches?

Most likely not, since it is my understanding that the Orthodox have a tendency to refer to the Eastern Rites as “Uniate” and in using the term, imply a slur.

I would more likely suspect we will soon see a Pope from Africa.

 

[AlNg]

Secondly in the case of velocities, that’s an instance that leads to a universal answer that in velocities it can never be another answer in the north, south, east or west than what is given when you add velocities according to relativity in the instance it relates. So again the truth is universal.

Suppose that the two velocities are in the same direction. Still v + v will not equal 2v in the case when v is near the speed of light. Yes 1 orange + 1 orange equals 2 oranges. But 1 v plus 1 v will not equal 2v.

 

[Wandile]

Wandile:

Secondly in the case of velocities, that’s an instance that leads to a universal answer that in velocities it can never be another answer in the north, south, east or west than what is given when you add velocities according to relativity in the instance it relates. So again the truth is universal.

Suppose that the two velocities are in the same direction. Still v + v will not equal 2v in the case when v is near the speed of light. Yes 1 orange + 1 orange equals 2 oranges. But 1 v plus 1 v will not equal 2v.

The closeness to speed of light are different instances. At a particular point in reference to speed of light it gives an answer that is universal. A nuance you are missing in your objections.

 

[CathBoy1]

One can not say Pope is infallible and Latins have to believe in it, bur Greeks don’t.

But in the what if? that I proposed, I was very clear that Pope X wasn’t denying papal infallibility for east or west, just declaring that it would not be exercised over the east in charity, for the sake of unity, hence keeping in tact the universal truth of papal infallibility.

has taught erroneously that Hell is not a physical place.

I was under the impression that all EO (or most?) hold that heaven or hell is not necessarily a “physical place”, rather a “state of being”, also I was unaware that teaching that hell is a “state of being” is heretical.

However I will admit to knowing next to nothing of this group (HOCNA) and it is quite possible that what they teach about hell and my understanding of it as a “state of being” are two completely different things.

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

I was under the impression that all EO (or most?) hold that heaven or hell is not necessarily a “physical place”, rather a “state of being”, also I was unaware that teaching that hell is a “state of being” is heretical.

There is currently a quietly simmering dispute within Orthodoxy about this. From what little I have gleaned, the early fathers teach that hell is a place with some sort of physicality, since we will be resurrected and given a new body that is still physical but transfigured with spiritual properties, just as Christ’s body was physical yet transfigured spiritually after the Resurrection. Then we will be assigned either a place in Heaven or Hell after the Final Judgement. The suffering which is allowed to the damned is both spiritual and physical, just as the delights of heaven are both spiritual and physical. Current teaching in “popular Orthodoxy” usually says that hell is a state of being and not a physical place, even though we have many references in the Divine Services, in Holy Scripture, in the Fathers, the visions and lives of the Saints, etc. that testify to Hell being a place. I tried to find the Old Calendarist track that lays out this doctrine which is widely accepted in most of the American Orthodox jurisdictions but cannot find the link…

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

But in the what if? that I proposed, I was very clear that Pope X wasn’t denying papal infallibility for east or west, just declaring that it would not be exercised over the east in charity, for the sake of unity, hence keeping in tact the universal truth of papal infallibility.

Well… first things first, why would that exactly be charity? “Guys, we have amazing gift to be sure we are teaching Truth… but we will not let you partake of that gift”. Second, Eastern Orthodoxy would probably have a problem with it being professed. If God gave Church gift of Papal Infallibility, who is one Pope to limit it. Next Pope could simply use Papal Infallibility again… previous Pope can’t bind him. There is no assurance for EO in this.

 

[CathBoy1]

As has been pointed out on a different thread by @JGD, even St Pope JPII states that “heaven is not a physical place”, therefore perhaps heaven, purgatory and hell are probably best described as a “state of being” even by RC’s

From John Paul II’s General Audience on 7/11/99:

In the context of Revelation, we know that the “heaven” or “happiness” in which we will find ourselves is neither an abstraction nor a physical place in the clouds, but a living, personal relationship with the Holy Trinity. It is our meeting with the Father which takes place in the risen Christ through the communion of the Holy Spirit.