Will there be EC in America in 40 years?

[PennyinCanada]

What I’ve seen is that a Ukrainian girl will marry someone who is not Eastern Rite so they end up at the RC church because it’s ‘just easier’. The Mass is shorter, more times are offered including Sat and Sunday evenings. There tends to be a lot more families with younger children, especially when associated with a school, all draws. Not many people come to the Eastern churches with an appreciation of icons and actually don’t like them.

None of the above is a criticism of the Eastern churches, it’s just what I’ve seen happening over the years. On the other hand, I’ve seen RC families come to the Eastern rite because the RC parishes here have just gotten over the top silly.

We can only trust in God to keep bringing people, regardless of our shortcomings and failings.

 

[Aramis]

I don’t think that people outside the Ruthenian church have a problem with an American church…where the problem comes in is this…the Ruthenians created this “American” church on their own…no consultation with anyone else…why didn’t they work to create an American Byzantine Church with the rest of the American Byzantines (Melkites, Ukrainians & Romanians)? The Ruthenians bishops of the past were not known for “playing well with others”. It was going to be their way or no way, even to the extent that the last bishop of Phoenix demanded that the Italo-Greek parish in Las Vegas sing Ruthenian music. The idea of an American Church that was inclusive of Ukrainians and ARABS was just to much!!

Several of the American Ruthenian Bishops weren’t even known for wanting to be vostochnik… so what’s your point?

As a church sui iuris, WE DON’T NEED approval from other churches sui iuris to keep our liturgies relevant to ourselves.

Nor do the UGCC, the Romanian GCC, the Melkite CC, nor the Chaldean CC, nor even the Maronite CC.

Self Ruling is just that. Our primates answer to the Pope, not to the other churches sui iuris. There is some oversite via the SC of the Eastern Churches… but not much.

The American Ruthenian Church is Ruthenian only in its history, music and general liturgical praxis… it’s become quite multi-ethnic. In my home parish, we’ve got Ethnic Poles, Ukrainians, Filipinos, Mexicanos, Eskimo, Amerind, and Scandinavians… forging a common identity as American Byzantine Catholics. Good preachers, and a liturgy the whole congregation sings. (And the number of silent participants has dropped as we’ve incorporated more of the new music! Which, BTW, most of it is resets of Bokshoi’s transcriptions from the turn of the 20th C. Many are direct, with only minor subdivision to fit the English. The 1956 recordings are more novel than the So-perjoratively-called “Teal Terror.”)

I expect a few wording changes to be made to counter a few bits of political correctness… but in general, the new book is still a good and solid liturgy.

 

[Formosus]

On the issue of ruthenians cooperating with other Greek Catholics, in nc the ugcc parishes there all have a working relationship with sts. Cyril and methodios in raleigh. The ruthenian deacon would drive several hours to help at the mission in charlotte, for example.

 

[malphono]

Well, time for this non-Byzantine to make a second comment. (Yeah, I know, “three jeers” … I can hears the groans already … but anyway …)

As I watch the process continue, I can’t help but ask myself what is “Americanization” if not an aspect of neo-latinization?

I also can’t help but notice the changes in the congregation. The “natives” are shrinking, slowly but surely and no, it’s not due to a lack of “natives” to fill the church (and I’m not necessarily referring to the “foreign-born”). For a classic example, one fellow told me recently that his eldest son refuses to come at all. Now, the son is about 20, US born and raised, was an altar boy for some 10 years, and was very active in the various youth groups until the past 2 years. He is now history. According to his dad, he said something to the effect of “Dad, what’s the difference? I can just go to the Latin church down the street. It’s the same thing now.”

His dad was sad but couldn’t argue. Indeed, the young man is pretty much on target: it IS getting to be more and more the same thing these days. And if we don’t make a concerted effort to stop it, things will only get worse.

 

[Young_Thinker]

Our vocation as Eastern Catholics is to disappear. We should be working towards being reabsorbed into our mother churches (Orthodox). So hopefully within the next 40 years or so we will have disappeared.

Why would you hope for such a thing? What would be so bad about staying in communion with Rome as a Latin Rite Catholic if you no longer have the option of attending an Eastern Rite parish? Is not that the “correct” thing to do? Sure the liturgy may be a bit different (while the Orthodox liturgy is almost identical to the Eastern Rite’s), but is not doctrine that which is really important?

 

[ciero]

Several of the American Ruthenian Bishops weren’t even known for wanting to be vostochnik… so what’s your point?

As a church sui iuris, WE DON’T NEED approval from other churches sui iuris to keep our liturgies relevant to ourselves.

Nor do the UGCC, the Romanian GCC, the Melkite CC, nor the Chaldean CC, nor even the Maronite CC.

Self Ruling is just that. Our primates answer to the Pope, not to the other churches sui iuris. There is some oversite via the SC of the Eastern Churches… but not much.

The American Ruthenian Church is Ruthenian only in its history, music and general liturgical praxis… it’s become quite multi-ethnic. In my home parish, we’ve got Ethnic Poles, Ukrainians, Filipinos, Mexicanos, Eskimo, Amerind, and Scandinavians… forging a common identity as American Byzantine Catholics. Good preachers, and a liturgy the whole congregation sings. (And the number of silent participants has dropped as we’ve incorporated more of the new music! Which, BTW, most of it is resets of Bokshoi’s transcriptions from the turn of the 20th C. Many are direct, with only minor subdivision to fit the English. The 1956 recordings are more novel than the So-perjoratively-called “Teal Terror.”)

I expect a few wording changes to be made to counter a few bits of political correctness… but in general, the new book is still a good and solid liturgy.

Well Aramis you can’t have it both ways…either you are promoting an American church for ALL Byzantines or your not which one is it?

As a church sui iuris, WE DON’T NEED approval from other churches sui iuris to keep our liturgies relevant to ourselves. Is it just for you or for all? Don’t you think it is something for all Byzantines to work towards together?

Several of the American Ruthenian Bishops weren’t even known for wanting to be vostochnik… so what’s your point? Nowhere do I question how Eastern these bishops were, so I don’t get your question.

As someone who has been part of the Ruthenian church for over 40 years and personally have known all of the Ruthenian bishops concerned, I can say with full knowledge that ALL of the Ruthenian bishops with the exception of +George Kuzma and +Met Judson, were extremely insular and had no desire for the church to expand outside of “our own people”, if you weren’t nosh you were nobody. ( I do not know the present bishops well enough to comment on their attitudes).

 

[dzheremi]

Well, time for this non-Byzantine to make a second comment. (Yeah, I know, “three jeers” … I can hears the groans already … but anyway …)

That is heartbreaking. Really…it hurts to read. I believe you wrote once that a massive “Syriacization” is the only hope (if I don’t have you confused with someone else), but that is so remote…what can be done? That is one of the many, many problems with this idea of abandoning absolutely everything to the culture of the wider society (whether you are native to it or not) – once you have subscribed to the idea that it is essentially all the same, you lose the perspective that helps you see why a particular tradition is unique and irreplaceable. It becomes in a sense a self-fulfilling prophecy, because if it WASN’T all the same to begin with, eventually it will be, because no one will be around to remember the old ways. The Latinized (or Americanized, or whatever) way of doing things will be all you have, and all that anyone can remember or practice.

So as much as I’d like to phrase this in a way that does not sound like I’m picking on particular posters, I must vehemently disagree with the idea that Eastern or Oriental Christianity can be lived completely while divorced from the cultures in which it was forged. Certainly an Anglo-American person or a Hispanic person can be a part of those churches as much as anyone else (St. Maroun has a HUGE following in Mexico, for instance), but nativizing a church should not mean “make it more like/identical to the dominant rite and culture of the country in which it resides.” Syriac (Coptic/Ge’ez/Armenian/Arabic/whatever) should be taught and kept as a recognized treasure of the church and its history, and the continuation of its unique spirituality in its hymns and the roots of its practices. I realize that I am of an extreme minority position in this regard (as I have recently gotten into a bit of an argument with some Orientals over this; oops!), but I am not saying that any convert must learn these languages fluently in order to participate in these churches. I am saying that just as I, a white person, cannot reasonably insist that the Hispanic Mass be divested of its character because I might show up to it one day and find brown people alienating, I cannot likewise expect, insist, or otherwise pressure the Syrians, Indians, Georgians, Ukrainians, etc. to do anything to their practices for my comfort. It shocks and scandalizes me on a personal level that anyone, no matter what their church affiliation, can possibly think that it should or could work this way. When I attended a Ruthenian church in Oregon, I was given a small printed booklet meant for visitors, with the prayers and hymns in Slavonic, with phonetic transliteration and translation in English included. The prayers and hymns themselves were still said in Slavonic, even as a sizable portion of the congregation seemed to be English-speaking monolinguals. So be it. It is better that we all keep whatever traditions are native to us, rather than change for anyone.

It is not for converts to change the church by the force of their complaining. And, honestly, in my experience (which I recognize is probably not normative, but nevertheless is the only experience I have), such things seem more often to be the concern of a particular segment of people who are already in the church under consideration, rather than the people who are coming in from outside of it. Nobody ever asked me if I would like to go to a “Latin” Mass that is ad populum, full of irreverence, with awful music that is indistinguishable from contemporary Protestant Christian radio pop, weak theology, etc. These are all things that are present to various degrees in various churches with various explanations that generally revolve around some middle-aged man’s idea of what will attract and keep the youth. Well, I can’t think of a nice way to say this, but to hell with that idea. If I got to a Latin Mass, I want it to reflect authentic Latin spirituality, and you can be damned sure that if I go to a Maronite liturgy, I want to hear Syriac hymns, not the same type of “hymn” I would hear at the debased Latin Mass that I don’t even think reflects ancient Latin tradition!

[/rant]

 

[malphono]

That is heartbreaking. Really…it hurts to read. I believe you wrote once that a massive “Syriacization” is the only hope (if I don’t have you confused with someone else)

Yeah … that was me … who else around here?

but that is so remote…what can be done?

Saying it’s “remote” is an understatement. And that’s why I’ve essentially given up. That’s not to say I don’t care: obviously I do. It breaks my heart on a daily basis.

If I got to a Latin Mass, I want it to reflect authentic Latin spirituality, and you can be damned sure that if I go to a Maronite liturgy, I want to hear Syriac hymns, not the same type of “hymn” I would hear at the debased Latin Mass that I don’t even think reflects ancient Latin tradition!

Funny thing about the music: Some of it (actually a good portion) purports to be “of Syriac origin” (whether sung in Arabic or English – G-d forbid in Syriac, and G-d forbid it be in the right place, but I digress), but those of us who know are more than well aware that (a) the text is not a real translation of the original (at best it uses ICEL-style “dynamic equivalence”) and (b) even the music itself has been adapted (perhaps “modernized” would be more apropos). The rest of the music usually heard is either straight out of the Anglophone Novus Ordo “feel-good music” playbook, or else it’s from the neo-Maronite Lebanese school of same which is no better. (The ratio of the former to the latter depends on the individual parish.) All told, a total disaster.

 

[Augustus24]

I heard that some Eastern Catholic Churches are growing as the Roman Rite is encouraging folks to go back to their Church of origin.

I am thinking of going back to the Ruthenian Church of my Ukrainian ancestors, when they came over to the States in the late 1800’s, the American Bishops discriminated against them and basically wanted everyone to become Roman, and they did because they wanted to Americanize.

Anyway, I will say what I say to my baptist friends who want me to go back to the baptist church. No amount of potlucks, bible studies, festivals, carnivals, glad handers, fire and brimstone preachers, coffee shops, bucket seats, movie theater screens, rock concert like atmosphere, child care facilities, vacation bible schools, and contemporary emotional praise songs will replace the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, and the blessed Sacrament.

 

[dvdjs]

On the issue of ruthenians cooperating with other Greek Catholics, in nc the ugcc parishes there all have a working relationship with sts. Cyril and methodios in raleigh. The ruthenian deacon would drive several hours to help at the mission in charlotte, for example.

This is great to hear; I was wondering how things were going in Charlotte. IIRC you were anticipating good news some time ago.

 

[dzheremi]

Yeah … that was me … who else around here?

Yeah, that was silly of me…point taken…

Saying it’s “remote” is an understatement. And that’s why I’ve essentially given up. That’s not to say I don’t care: obviously I do. It breaks my heart on a daily basis.

If I were you I would rather be remembered as the last man who gave up fighting inevitable decline or marginalization than just give up, but that’s me. Of course, I learned that attitude from Lebanese friends who are more into political religion than liturgy, but they nevertheless do claim that should it come to this, the last church bell to be rung in the Middle East will be rung by a Maronite, by God…if only that determination could be applied elsewhere, eh?!

Funny thing about the music: Some of it (actually a good portion) purports to be “of Syriac origin” (whether sung in Arabic or English – G-d forbid in Syriac, and G-d forbid it be in the right place, but I digress), but those of us who know are more than well aware that (a) the text is not a real translation of the original (at best it uses ICEL-style “dynamic equivalence”) and (b) even the music itself has been adapted (perhaps “modernized” would be more apropos). The rest of the music usually heard is either straight out of the Anglophone Novus Ordo “feel-good music” playbook, or else it’s from the neo-Maronite Lebanese school of same which is no better. (The ratio of the former to the latter depends on the individual parish.) All told, a total disaster.

Yes, I just last week completed my search for the last of the three volumes of the “Chants Liturgiques Des Eglises Orientales” series of LPs that deal with music of the Maronite church, released in Paris in the late 1970s-early 1980s. That is far too late a time period to expect anything too traditional, I realize, but I still had high hopes because as I remember Fr. Louis Hage (who organized the chorus that sings on the albums) was involved in the recording of the “Chants of the Maronitic Liturgy” album on Christophorus Records (a German CD reissue of an earlier recording), and that is far and away my favorite of the commercially-available recordings of Maronite liturgical chant. Precisely because it IS actual chant, and mostly (or perhaps entirely; it’s been a while since I listened to it) in Syriac to boot.

The final total for the “Chants Liturgiques” LPs adds up to one LP of Maronite vaguely Arabish music (entirely in Syriac, but with modern arrangements that only evoke the orient because of their lack of keyboard, replaced by nay and qanun…oh, yippie), and two LPs with organ and nearly operatic singing, with a total of 5 pieces actually in Syriac between the two of them. (I would not be shocked to find that they are translations from the Arabic, or English, or nothing at all.)

The whole thing makes me very sad indeed…and that is but one aspect of the lost heritage, and for what gain? Is the Maronite church stronger now than it was before it gave all of this up? I’d find that hard to believe, even if Patriarch Bishara Raei (may God bless him) told me himself.

 

[dvdjs]

Well Aramis you can’t have it both ways…either you are promoting an American church for ALL Byzantines or your not which one is it?

Of course you can. Each church can make this decision for itself. Those that want to go in a certain direction will do it. Others who don’t will be able to go there own way, but will not have veto power over the direction taken by others. Eventually, those that are walking parallel paths will find it natural to work together more and more.

As a church sui iuris, WE DON’T NEED approval from other churches sui iuris to keep our liturgies relevant to ourselves. Is it just for you or for all? Don’t you think it is something for all Byzantines to work towards together?

Ideally sure. But such collaboration is not a necessity. Several churches have put forth new editions of their English liturgy in recent years. Collaboration was not the rule. Only one church is regularly criticized for working unilaterally.

As someone who has been part of the Ruthenian church for over 40 years and personally have known all of the Ruthenian bishops concerned, I can say with full knowledge that ALL of the Ruthenian bishops with the exception of +George Kuzma and +Met Judson, were extremely insular and had no desire for the church to expand outside of “our own people”, if you weren’t nosh you were nobody. ( I do not know the present bishops well enough to comment on their attitudes).

Whatever your personal knowledge is, I think your perception or your summary of it misses the mark. I think that the bishops certainly had a different perspective on the mission of our church than you do. I believe that they saw it as advancing the salvation of its members. And that meant not only “nash” but also those who chose to join us - all of us. Given our resources, there is no doubt that the service would be prioritized for those linked over generations to this church. However, as we moved West and South, this focus increasingly shifted those who joined us rather than just ethnic “nash”. That shift remains a bit controversial.

Overall, I am not what substantive point you are trying to make, but this seems to be a very natural way that inclusiveness grows; and the BCC has probably done this as well as anyone.

 

[malphono]

If I were you I would rather be remembered as the last man who gave up fighting inevitable decline or marginalization than just give up, but that’s me.

In the end, it will probably come to that. While I realize there is little hope, I just cannot keep my mouth shut (much to the bishop’s chagrin). You seem to know me all too well.

Of course, I learned that attitude from Lebanese friends who are more into political religion than liturgy, but they nevertheless do claim that should it come to this, the last church bell to be rung in the Middle East will be rung by a Maronite, by God…if only that determination could be applied elsewhere, eh?!

If there is a Maronite Church left.

Yes, I just last week completed my search for the last of the three volumes of the “Chants Liturgiques Des Eglises Orientales” series of LPs that deal with music of the Maronite church, released in Paris in the late 1970s-early 1980s. That is far too late a time period to expect anything too traditional, I realize, but I still had high hopes because as I remember Fr. Louis Hage (who organized the chorus that sings on the albums) was involved in the recording of the “Chants of the Maronitic Liturgy” album on Christophorus Records (a German CD reissue of an earlier recording), and that is far and away my favorite of the commercially-available recordings of Maronite liturgical chant. Precisely because it IS actual chant, and mostly (or perhaps entirely; it’s been a while since I listened to it) in Syriac to boot.

The final total for the “Chants Liturgiques” LPs adds up to one LP of Maronite vaguely Arabish music (entirely in Syriac, but with modern arrangements that only evoke the orient because of their lack of keyboard, replaced by nay and qanun…oh, yippie), and two LPs with organ and nearly operatic singing, with a total of 5 pieces actually in Syriac between the two of them. (I would not be shocked to find that they are translations from the Arabic, or English, or nothing at all.)

Ah, I should have known you’d be familiar with the “Louis Hage school” of music. So you have an idea of what I mean. (FYI, that stuff has been made the “official version” in the past few years. ) And there are things that are even worse.

As an aside, my preference was always Ab Albert Chérfane (who was abducted some years ago and put in the Tadmour torture chamber by Dr B’s agents), although I’ve only encountered two recordings in the past 35+ years. Anyway, at least the tradition of Baabda & the OAM continues under a protégé.

The whole thing makes me very sad indeed…and that is but one aspect of the lost heritage, and for what gain? Is the Maronite church stronger now than it was before it gave all of this up? I’d find that hard to believe, even if Patriarch Bishara Raei (may God bless him) told me himself.

I doubt Mar Beshara would be one to say such a thing (at least not with a straight face ). The decline began in 1972, and really got going in 1975. It’s been downhill ever since.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The Ruthenian GCC essentially has done so… and everyone outside it seems to take umbrage that it’s done so…

Well, at least in the US. Not in Canada, their presence is sparse here. Canada is more of Ukrainian territory as far as the ECCs are concerned.

 

[dzheremi]

In the end, it will probably come to that. While I realize there is little hope, I just cannot keep my mouth shut (much to the bishop’s chagrin). You seem to know me all too well.

Well, I was talking about me, but yes. It seems we have similar dispositions on such matters.

If there is a Maronite Church left.

Eugh…this is the proverbial “elephant in the room”, and, I might add, the flipside of every single struggle to hold on to tradition that has been lost.

Ah, I should have known you’d be familiar with the “Louis Hage school” of music. So you have an idea of what I mean. (FYI, that stuff has been made the “official version” in the past few years. ) And there are things that are even worse.

Yes, I am quite aware of it, though I was unaware that he was personally responsible for it. As I said, the “Chants of the Maronitic Liturgy” CD is quite an improvement over the other things I have found by him (I’m not sure why that is, as the other things are mostly earlier recordings), so I am quite disappointed and in a way shocked. The earlier recordings I have found by others (such as the “Messe Solennelle Maronite” with Wadih El Safi and al-Ab Yusuf Saade) are just dreadful, and the later? Forget about it! Even Fr. Miled Tarabay and his “Sawt al-Atiqa” group are in a similar style, albeit slightly more refined. If I could find more Syriac recordings like the OAM one we talked about a few months ago, I might not be so down on the whole thing…but no, I still would, because I would still know that those are the exception, not the rule. So it is with everything, I suppose.

As an aside, my preference was always Ab Albert Chérfane (who was abducted some years ago and put in the Tadmour torture chamber by Dr B’s agents), although I’ve only encountered two recordings in the past 35+ years. Anyway, at least the tradition of Baabda & the OAM continues under a protégé.

I (barely) know the case, but not the man. He is connected to the OAM, I take it?

I doubt Mar Beshara would be one to say such a thing (at least not with a straight face ). The decline began in 1972, and really got going in 1975. It’s been downhill ever since.

***Let everyone read this! ***

1972…1975! Not so far back in history, are they? Are you absolutely sure you still want to modify your liturgies, for converts or for anything else? I wouldn’t, but I guess I am a fanatic…

 

[ConstantineTG]

I don’t think that people outside the Ruthenian church have a problem with an American church…where the problem comes in is this…the Ruthenians created this “American” church on their own…no consultation with anyone else…why didn’t they work to create an American Byzantine Church with the rest of the American Byzantines (Melkites, Ukrainians & Romanians)? The Ruthenians bishops of the past were not known for “playing well with others”. It was going to be their way or no way, even to the extent that the last bishop of Phoenix demanded that the Italo-Greek parish in Las Vegas sing Ruthenian music. The idea of an American Church that was inclusive of Ukrainians and ARABS was just to much!!

This is what I brought up earlier in the thread that many of the ECs are focused on their own ethnic groups rather than expanding their Church to included all ethnicities. Truly, there can only be a limited number of those in North America and elsewhere in the world. They can’t expect a lot of the likes of us who get interested in their Rite and traditions that we would switch parishes and even canonical enrollment.

 

[malphono]

Yes, I am quite aware of it, though I was unaware that he was personally responsible for it. As I said, the “Chants of the Maronitic Liturgy” CD is quite an improvement over the other things I have found by him (I’m not sure why that is, as the other things are mostly earlier recordings), so I am quite disappointed and in a way shocked.

Louis Hage was really the founder of the neo-Maronite musical movement. His style was never great, but it deteriorated after 1978, as you’ve experienced in that recording. Taraby et al aren’t much better. Neither, for that matter, is François Eid (even though he’s OMM).

The earlier recordings I have found by others (such as the “Messe Solennelle Maronite” with Wadih El Safi and al-Ab Yusuf Saade) are just dreadful, and the later? Forget about it!

Which one? There were two recording from 40+ years ago with the same title. Wadih al-Safi sang on both.

I (barely) know the case, but not the man. He is connected to the OAM, I take it?

Yes, Ab Albert is (was? – I’m not sure if he’s still alive) an Antonine.

***Let everyone read this! ***

1972…1975! Not so far back in history, are they? Are you absolutely sure you still want to modify your liturgies, for converts or for anything else? I wouldn’t, but I guess I am a fanatic…

(From one fanatic to another)

 

[dzheremi]

Which one? There were two recording from 40+ years ago with the same title. Wadih al-Safi sang on both.

I am not sure. I know that there are two, but I have only ever heard/owned one. The one I am referring to was released first on LP by Duniaphon Records (a big help, right? Hahaha. Sorry, there’s no date on it) then reissued c.1998 on CD by Digital Press Hellas. I think it was just called “El-Qiddas El-Marouni el-Ahtifaly” on the original LP (my Arabic is not great, and I don’t own the record anymore, but as I remember it just had that written on the cover, with a picture of a church bell underneath it), and carried the French title only on the CD reissue. It features Wadih al-Safi, Fr. Yusuf Saade (listed as “Elias Saade” on the CD reissue), and Madeline Khoury. I am guessing it was made sometime in the late 1960s-early 1970s. I’m not sure if it is a complete Mass or not. I doubt it, due to the short running time. Here is a short clip of it from Youtube, if that helps identify it.

The only other Maronite liturgy I own is actually with Fr. Mansour Labaky and Tony Hanna…I don’t know why…maybe you can explain why and how all these famous singing stars end up serving the Maronite liturgy? I’ve noticed that, and it is a puzzle. Anyway, this particular recording is actually much preferable to me over the Saade/Wadih/Khoury one, if only for its incredibly sparse and strange instrumentation: Fr. Labaky, Tony Hanna, and a lone violin. I have no idea what school that falls under, but I will assume that it’s probably somebody’s fault that it ended up that way…

 

[malphono]

I am not sure. I know that there are two, but I have only ever heard/owned one. The one I am referring to was released first on LP by Duniaphon Records (a big help, right? Hahaha. Sorry, there’s no date on it) then reissued c.1998 on CD by Digital Press Hellas. I think it was just called “El-Qiddas El-Marouni el-Ahtifaly” on the original LP (my Arabic is not great, and I don’t own the record anymore, but as I remember it just had that written on the cover, with a picture of a church bell underneath it), and carried the French title only on the CD reissue. It features Wadih al-Safi, Fr. Yusuf Saade (listed as “Elias Saade” on the CD reissue), and Madeline Khoury. I am guessing it was made sometime in the late 1960s-early 1970s. I’m not sure if it is a complete Mass or not. I doubt it, due to the short running time. Here is a short clip of it from Youtube, if that helps identify it.

Well … believe it or not, “Duniaphon” told me exactly what I needed to know.

Although, as you say, the running time is a bit short, it actually is a nearly-complete Mass. (Some of the priest’s prayers and diaconal admonitions, along with the pre-and-post communion dialogues are missing, e.g., as are some things earlier on.) Anyway, what I was going to say before is that there is one part in that Mass that is incredible: the housoyo. It’s done totally in Syriac and never fails to bring tears to my eyes.

The only other Maronite liturgy I own is actually with Fr. Mansour Labaky and Tony Hanna…I don’t know why…maybe you can explain why and how all these famous singing stars end up serving the Maronite liturgy? I’ve noticed that, and it is a puzzle. Anyway, this particular recording is actually much preferable to me over the Saade/Wadih/Khoury one, if only for its incredibly sparse and strange instrumentation: Fr. Labaky, Tony Hanna, and a lone violin. I have no idea what school that falls under, but I will assume that it’s probably somebody’s fault that it ended up that way…

That one I haven’t heard, although I know Mansour Labaky. He’s one who knows the “right way” but doesn’t always (these days, I guess, doesn’t usually) do it.

BTW, the thing with the famous singers is easy: it has to do with the fact that the cantor’s role (should be the deacon’s, but never mind that) was very prominent, and a good voice was always appreciated in Maronite circles (same as with the SOC, Chaldeans, etc).

 

[dzheremi]

Well … believe it or not, “Duniaphon” told me exactly what I needed to know.

Okay, so I am not the only anachronism here. Whew!

Anyway, what I was going to say before is that there is one part in that Mass that is incredible: the housoyo. It’s done totally in Syriac and never fails to bring tears to my eyes.

Don’t I know it! It is my favorite part too, and the one reason I didn’t get rid of the CD after I realized I already owned it…

That one I haven’t heard, although I know Mansour Labaky. He’s one who knows the “right way” but doesn’t always (these days, I guess, doesn’t usually) do it.

I can’t speak about today, but this one is quite austere and beautiful. From the early 1980s, I think.

;QUOTE]BTW, the thing with the famous singers is easy: it has to do with the fact that the cantor’s role (should be the deacon’s, but never mind that) was very prominent, and a good voice was always appreciated in Maronite circles (same as with the SOC, Chaldeans, etc).

Yes, yes, that is quite easy. Hahaha. Now I feel even more ridiculous than usual. I guess it doesn’t surprise me as much with the other singers I have heard (like Wadih, or Fairuz in the case of the Greeks) because they have done religious albums, but not so with Tony Hanna or some others I’ve heard. Of course, with a name like that I never expected him to be a Shi’ite or anything, but still…

I figured it might be something particular to the Maronites, but for all I know there could be tons of stars singing both secular and religious music among the Chaldeans or others. I know Nouri Iskandar (Syriac Orthodox) did the arrangements for some of Habib Moussa’s early singles, but…wow…I should stop…I’m really dating my tastes and dragging this way off topic. Haha. Sorry everyone!

Back to topic…

I sure hope there will be EC and OC in America in 40 years, and 100 years, and 400 years…! And I hope they’ll be full of Eastern Catholic Americans of all manner of hyphenated or single heritage. We come from different places and cultures, but what unites us is Jesus Christ, meaning that even as we have these discussions about culture and integration or assimilation, they should be framed within the proper understanding of what makes us all Christian. Christ performed His first miracle in Cana, and was hung on Golgotha, but even those of us who are far away from those places look to them in prayer and feel the power of what transpired there in our own lives, wherever we may be living them. It is right to remember and proclaim to all people, in a manner befitting to the glory of God.