With Border Crossings at a Trickle, Why Build a Mexico Wall?

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

However it is a mistake to decide hugely expensive public policy questions without considering cost-effectiveness. No reasonable person would consider building a wall costing at least $15 billion with an annual maintenance cost of $700 million just to stop one illegal Mexican day-laborer.

I support building the wall.

What is the cost of not building the wall?

(1) Social services for people here illegally;

(2) Lower wages for Americans from illegals working “under the table”;

(3) Other issues that are hard to quantify (e.g., the effect of crime).

Estimates I’ve seen are that we save money by building the wall.

At least we agree that estimating the return on investment is the proper way to decide the question. The only point of disagreement then is the estimate of how much will actually be saved. If we believe the estimate of the OP that border crossing is already at a trickle, then the total cost of the things you listed would also be small. So do you have a contrary estimate of the number of illegal border crossings?

 

[Imdaman]

Sometimes breaking the law is the moral thing to do, right?

Sometimes but not this time.

 

[OneSheep]

Sometimes but not this time.

Not which time? Let’s take the example of Jose. Jose was working in the fields with illegal papers. He sends money home every week to his family in Mexico to help them survive. Jose had to go home to Mexico on a family emergency, but now needs to get back to his job to support his family.

Is this the time that it is immoral?

 

[Imdaman]

Was Jose in the US illegally?

Millions of people live and feed their families every year while living in Mexico. Why does JOse have such a hard time with it.

I’m not sure why but it seems you think that mexico is some kind of 3rd world country where there are no jobs and no food and nowhere to live. This is just untrue.

 

[OneSheep]

Was Jose in the US illegally?

Yes.

Millions of people live and feed their families every year while living in Mexico. Why does JOse have such a hard time with it.

Jobs down there pay very little. It is very difficult to support a family for many people, and they often have large families.

I’m not sure why but it seems you think that mexico is some kind of 3rd world country where there are no jobs and no food and nowhere to live. This is just untrue.

Yes, what you were saying in terms of what I think is untrue.

Is it immoral for Jose to come to America to support his family? Can you really be the judge of that?

 

[JoshuaIsLord]

Is it immoral for Jose to come to America to support his family? Can you really be the judge of that?

In light of

Proverbs 6:30 Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry;

and

MARK 2:25-27

*He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. *

No.

Jose is doing something less than stealing.

 

[Imdaman]

Is it immoral for Jose to come to America to support his family? Can you really be the judge of that?
[/quote]

It is immoral fr Jose to come and stay in the US illegally. He went back home and now can’t get back in. That is not immoral on the part of the US. It is the rule as it is in any other country.

Pretty self explanatory if you ask me!

 

[OneSheep]

It is immoral fr Jose to come and stay in the US illegally.

Well, it sounds like you have judged his attempt to get back to the U.S. as immoral.

I pray that you are never in his situation, and I pray that you come to understand what it means to be very poor.

He went back home and now can’t get back in. That is not immoral on the part of the US.

From the CCC:

2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

Stopping him from coming back in is not “welcoming”.

 

[JoshuaIsLord]

It is immoral fr Jose to come and stay in the US illegally. He went back home and now can’t get back in. That is not immoral on the part of the US. It is the rule as it is in any other country.

And are some laws and rules immoral?

You would say yes to certain laws? Yes?

 

[signit]

At least we agree that estimating the return on investment is the proper way to decide the question. The only point of disagreement then is the estimate of how much will actually be saved. If we believe the estimate of the OP that border crossing is already at a trickle, then the total cost of the things you listed would also be small. So do you have a contrary estimate of the number of illegal border crossings?

Massachusetts alone: $1.8 billion per year ($1.9 billion in costs offset by less than $1 billion in taxes paid by illegals):

https://fairus.org/sites/default/files/2017-08/Massachusetts2014.pdf

The U.S.: $100 billion ($113 billion less $13 billion in taxes paid by illegals, not taking account higher government revenues if jobs held by illegals were held by legals):

https://fairus.org/press-releases/illegal-immigration-113-billion-year-drain-us-taxpayers

Again, these are only estimates.

This also doesn’t count, for example, the noneconomic cost to the family of the person killed by an illegal who was driving drunk.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Nothing the federal government does is cost effective. Why hold this one thing to that standard?

You are trying to debate a specific issue (building the wall) by making a much broader claim (“Nothing the federal government does is cost effective.”) which, needless to say, most people do not accept. And even if you could make that argument stick, it still would not support your point. Why build a wall to ensure the integrity of the borders of a country that cannot do anything cost-effectively? Might as well dismantle the whole federal government if you manage to prove your broad point.

 

[exnihilo]

Might as well dismantle the whole federal government if you manage to prove your broad point.

One can dream.

 

[Stephen_C]

The rule of law thing. That is how they justified the Jim Crow laws back in the day during the Civil rights movement in the the late 50’s and 60’s Which was immoral? As well the brutal enforcement of said laws.

 

[Stephen_C]

Using the same logic those folk who refused to sit in the back of the bus were immoral?

 

[Imdaman]

Imdaman:

It is immoral fr Jose to come and stay in the US illegally.

Well, it sounds like you have judged his attempt to get back to the U.S. as immoral. No, what I said is that it is not immoral for the US to keep him out. I completely understand why he would want to live in the US

I pray that you are never in his situation, and I pray that you come to understand what it means to be very poor. Thank you for this prayer I also pray that I am able to look after my family. I pray for this often.

He went back home and now can’t get back in. That is not immoral on the part of the US.

From the CCC:

2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him. There is no western country that I know of that is guilty of going against what is written here certainly not the US as they welcome hundreds of thousands of legal immigrants yearly

Stopping him from coming back in is not “welcoming”. Since I don’t know how Jose got into the states the first time this can be answered in several different ways.

If Jose entered illegally the first time he came to the US is well within their rights to klck him out or refuse to let him back in.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

At least we agree that estimating the return on investment is the proper way to decide the question. The only point of disagreement then is the estimate of how much will actually be saved. If we believe the estimate of the OP that border crossing is already at a trickle, then the total cost of the things you listed would also be small. So do you have a contrary estimate of the number of illegal border crossings?

Massachusetts alone: $1.8 billion per year ($1.9 billion in costs offset by less than $1 billion in taxes paid by illegals):

https://fairus.org/sites/default/files/2017-08/Massachusetts2014.pdf

The U.S.: $100 billion ($113 billion less $13 billion in taxes paid by illegals, not taking account higher government revenues if jobs held by illegals were held by legals):

https://fairus.org/press-releases/illegal-immigration-113-billion-year-drain-us-taxpayers

Again, these are only estimates.

I didn’t see any supporting data for the estimates of recent border crossings - only a claim of total costs. The Newsweek article cites official government data.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

Might as well dismantle the whole federal government if you manage to prove your broad point.

One can dream.

If you dream about dismantling the federal government, why do you also want to defend it by enforcing national borders? I would think you would like individual states to set their own border policies and enforce them.

 

[Imdaman]

Imdaman:

It is immoral fr Jose to come and stay in the US illegally. He went back home and now can’t get back in. That is not immoral on the part of the US. It is the rule as it is in any other country.

And are some laws and rules immoral?

You would say yes to certain laws? Yes?

I certainly would yes. What law with regards to illegal immigration do you think I should think is immoral?

 

[exnihilo]

If you dream about dismantling the federal government, why do you also want to defend it by enforcing national borders? I would think you would like individual states to set their own border policies and enforce them.

One of the few arguments for the federal government is that it controls and protects the borders. It fails miserably at this task. The federal government isn’t going away anytime soon. So until then we ought to have decent border control. We won’t get it, because the federal government can’t do anything right. But I’ll support it.

 

[Imdaman]

The rule of law thing. That is how they justified the Jim Crow laws back in the day during the Civil rights movement in the the late 50’s and 60’s Which was immoral? As well the brutal enforcement of said laws.

Jim Crow laws were indeed immoral. A country protecting it’s borfers is not IMmoral. Please explain what Immigration law you find immoral?