Witnesses tell FBI that George Zimmerman is no racist

[seekerz]

Exactly. We don’t have Trayvon to tell us what happened. To say that “something definitely cause it,” is true, but it wasn’t necessarily Zimmerman that caused it. It is possible that Martin was pissed off and followed Zimmerman back to his vehicle and attacked him. It is possible Zimmerman threatened him, and Martin responded. It is also possible Martin was actually out for nefarious reasons. Who knows?

Zimmerman’s past character does make it difficult to know for certain what happened. But, his past actions do not necessarily mean that he is to be convicted of second degree murder without evidence.

Anything is possible. What is not in dispute is that Zimmerman shot a kid. Cases are settled all the time based on consideration of motive, credibility, circumstantial evidence etc. We don’t need Trayvon’s testimony in order to dispense justice.

 

[kelvinf]

Exactly. We don’t have Trayvon to tell us what happened. To say that “something definitely cause it,” is true, but it wasn’t necessarily Zimmerman that caused it. It is possible that Martin was pissed off and followed Zimmerman back to his vehicle and attacked him. It is possible Zimmerman threatened him, and Martin responded. It is also possible Martin was actually out for nefarious reasons. Who knows?

Zimmerman’s past character does make it difficult to know for certain what happened. But, his past actions do not necessarily mean that he is to be convicted of second degree murder without evidence.

Sure, that’s why I said the prosecutor has a tough job to prove that he murdered Travyon.

We are troubled by the ordeal. We know how it started–Travyon walking home and committing no crime–and we know how it ended–an armed Zimmerman killed the unarmed teenager, Travyon. This will go down in history.

 

[seekerz]

I wanted to give Trayvon a little more credit for intelligence then that.

So you would rather assume that his level of intelligence allowed for him to abruptly stop RUNNING AWAY from a strange man big enough to make match his strength, and decide to attack him with iced tea and Skittles?!

 

[estesbob]

That’s the thing. This single action is what led to the death of Travyon. Again, we know that he bought candies and was simply going back home before Zimmerman stepped in.

But he didn’t go home and regardlessof how he got there he ended up on the ground being beaten. At that point he is allowed to use deadly force to defend himself. Thecfact that Zimmerman was a wannabe cop following a man we shouldn’t have does not negate his righ to defend himsself

 

[vz71]

You seem to have information that has been withheld from the rest of us. Zimmerman has admitted to following Trayvon, so I’m not sure how you dispute that he was being chased.

Tell me, how does Zimmerman’s account become ‘evidence’? Or does evidence have a different definition for you as well?

You obviously have not been reading my posts.
Otherwise you would have a full understanding of my dispute.

Zimmerman claims he was on his way back to the car.
That would preclude any sort of ‘chase’ immudietely preceding the attack.

 

[vz71]

Anything is possible. What is not in dispute is that Zimmerman shot a kid. Cases are settled all the time based on consideration of motive, credibility, circumstantial evidence etc. We don’t need Trayvon’s testimony in order to dispense justice.

Quite true.
And based upon what we know, there is insufficient evidence to convict Zimmerman of any wrongdoing in the shooting.

 

[vz71]

Sure, that’s why I said the prosecutor has a tough job to prove that he murdered Travyon.

We are troubled by the ordeal. We know how it started–Travyon walking home and committing no crime–and we know how it ended–an armed Zimmerman killed the unarmed teenager, Travyon. This will go down in history.

Let us not forget the attack.
We have witness testimony to the beating, and we have physical evidence to show Zimmerman was injured in a physical struggle.

 

[vz71]

So you would rather assume that his level of intelligence allowed for him to abruptly stop RUNNING AWAY from a strange man big enough to make match his strength, and decide to attack him with iced tea and Skittles?!

No, I wanted to assume he had more sense then to attack an armed man with nothing more then his fists.

 

[estesbob]

That’s the thing. This single action is what led to the death of Travyon. Again, we know that he bought candies and was simply going back home before Zimmerman stepped in.

But he didn’t go home and regardlessof how he got there he ended up on the ground being beaten. At that point he is allowed to use deadly force to defend himself. Thecfact that Zimmerman was a wannabe cop following a man we shouldn’t have does not negate his righ to defend himsself

 

[seekerz]

But he didn’t go home and regardlessof how he got there he ended up on the ground being beaten. At that point he is allowed to use deadly force to defend himself. Thecfact that Zimmerman was a wannabe cop following a man we shouldn’t have does not negate his righ to defend himsself

He didn’t go home because…?

The right to self defense does not exist in a vacuum - it depends on the circumstances. If a person is responsible for getting in a fight for example, getting his butt kicked does not grant him the right to kill the other person and claim self defense - even if he was really afraid for his life. You don’t want to fear for your life, don’t place your life or that of anyone else in harm’s way. If harm comes to meet you, you are fully justified in defending yourself.

 

[seekerz]

No, I wanted to assume he had more sense then to attack an armed man with nothing more then his fists.

What makes you assume that he was the attacker? The only scenario in this whole mess that makes sense to me, is not that Trayvon attacked an armed man unprovoked or that he suddenly decided to stop running and instead beat up a strange man who was following him, but that he defended himself when confronted. This is only speculation on my part, but it does involve the use of commonsense, which the former two scenarios seems to stretch to breaking point. In the real world, flight usually indicates a disinclination to fight and we have it from Zimmerman himself that Trayvon was running away.

 

[seekerz]

Let us not forget the attack.
We have witness testimony to the beating, and we have physical evidence to show Zimmerman was injured in a physical struggle.

We have physical evidence of injuries, period. I am unaware of any evidence of how or when those injuries were acquired.

 

[seekerz]

Quite true.
And based upon what we know, there is insufficient evidence to convict Zimmerman of any wrongdoing in the shooting.

And you got to this conclusion how again?

 

[seekerz]

You obviously have not been reading my posts.
Otherwise you would have a full understanding of my dispute.

Zimmerman claims he was on his way back to the car.
That would preclude any sort of ‘chase’ immudietely preceding the attack.

He claims…I rest my case. All we know for certain from the 911 call, is that there was a chase. We don’t know when and how it ended, unless you call Zimmerman’s story credible - which I don’t at this point.

 

[rlg94086]

Anything is possible. What is not in dispute is that Zimmerman shot a kid. Cases are settled all the time based on consideration of motive, credibility, circumstantial evidence etc. We don’t need Trayvon’s testimony in order to dispense justice.

To be found guilty of murder “beyond a reasonable doubt” will certainly be very difficult. I can’t see a jury being convinced of Zimmerman’s intent to murder after making a 911 call.

His credibility may be weak, but he has no motive, and the circumstantial evidence is weak. How are you thinking it will be done?

 

[Dawnia]

He didn’t go home because…?

The right to self defense does not exist in a vacuum - it depends on the circumstances. If a person is responsible for getting in a fight for example, getting his butt kicked does not grant him the right to kill the other person and claim self defense - even if he was really afraid for his life. You don’t want to fear for your life, don’t place your life or that of anyone else in harm’s way. If harm comes to meet you, you are fully justified in defending yourself.

Loosing a fight you started isn’t justification, but fearing that the other person is going to kill you is, even if you started the fight. For example…if you hit someone and they pull a knife on you. You are not required to let them kill you.

Who threw the first punch is anyone’s guess. Other than Zimmerman’s testimony there is no evidence to say one way or the other. For sake of argument, if Zimmerman threw the first punch, that does not give Martin the right to knock him to the ground and continue beating on him. At the point that Zimmerman went down, Martin has the duty to leave the scene. Because at that point, the fight is over. Instead, if Zimmerman’s account is accurate, Martin attacked Zimmerman, which then puts the fault of the fight on Martin’s shoulders not Zimmermans.

If I was a juror, based on the evidence that has been released, I would have to vote not guilty, because there is so much reasonable doubt as to what happened you could float a fleet of cruise ships through.

 

[seekerz]

To be found guilty of murder “beyond a reasonable doubt” will certainly be very difficult. I can’t see a jury being convinced of Zimmerman’s intent to murder after making a 911 call.

His credibility may be weak, but he has no motive, and the circumstantial evidence is weak. How are you thinking it will be done?

I’d say there’s plenty of motive if you consider some of what his surrogates were saying in the early days when this first made the headlines. There had been a rash of burglaries by “young black males”; it’s not difficult to add this scenario to the facts as we know them:

*Zimmerman was vague as to what exactly Trayvon was doing that qualified as “suspicious”
*Zimmerman had been known to call police on several occasions to report what he considered “suspicious” activity;at least one of those incidents involved a young black male
*Zimmerman expressed frustration that these ____ always got away

Without access to all the evidence in the matter, these facts point me in the direction of racial profiling gone horribly wrong because of Z’s determination that on that particular night, his target of interest was NOT going to get away. As I have explained in previous discussions, one DOES NOT have to be racist to engage in racial profiling.

Z’s “always get away statement” indicates his motive for pursuing - a decision which set in train the whole tragic chain of events.

 

[vz71]

What makes you assume that he was the attacker?

Zimmerman knew the police were on the way.
It would make no sense for this man, having already called the police, to attack anyone.
And I also believe his testimony. There is no reason to doubt it, and the physical evidence and injuries match his telling of the events.

The only scenario in this whole mess that makes sense to me, is not that Trayvon attacked an armed man unprovoked or that he suddenly decided to stop running and instead beat up a strange man who was following him, but that he defended himself when confronted.

If you assume Zimmerman to be lying, then that could be a valid interpretation of events. However, we have a lot of correllation between the story Zimmerman has told and the evidence at hand.

This is only speculation on my part, but it does involve the use of commonsense, which the former two scenarios seems to stretch to breaking point. In the real world, flight usually indicates a disinclination to fight and we have it from Zimmerman himself that Trayvon was running away.

No, we have that he lost track of where Trayvon was and that he was going back to his car.
This case is complicated enough, we should stick with the facts on hand.

 

[vz71]

We have physical evidence of injuries, period. I am unaware of any evidence of how or when those injuries were acquired.

The injuries were fresh when the police arrived. This indicates that they were acquirred that night.
And we still have the witness.

 

[vz71]

And you got to this conclusion how again?

Witness testimony, known facts, known injuries on Zimmerman as well as the body of Trayvon.