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grandiosa
Guest
Can’t give you exact section numbers right now… don’t have it in front of me, but look up the section on Marriage in the Catechism. It speaks alot about the equality of dignity between men and women.
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rayne89
Guest
Ummm…go re-read post 19. Its from the papal encyclical Casti Canubii. I’ll quote the part that most addresses you question.
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Lil_Cat
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Thanks 
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yellowbicycle
Guest
Actually, no, there was no specific situation I was thinking of when I made the original post. I was just looking for general guidance, which people here have definitely provided. Everyone’s replies have been very useful!
But I would like to add a few things in light of some new posts
Grandiosa - you’re right. Discernment is, obviously, crucial, in choosing a spouse. But, people change. Sometimes, for the worse. I have seen, as I’m sure you have, fine young christian men turn into absolute monsters. :shrug
eople change and that is not always in our control.So, though discernment is of course the first step in a process, I can understand why it does not guarantee a holy marriage.
On nagging - what is the difference between nagging and, well, not nagging? I recall being about ten and my mom nagged me to take the garbage out. Nag, nag, nag. And finally I said ‘Would you quit nagging me?’ and she said, simply, ‘If you take out the garbage, I’ll have nothing to complain about’
:newidea:
So, when is a woman (or anyone for that matter) simply asking someone for a help and when is she nagging?
I nag my husband.
I can’t help it. I can’t do everything in this house on my own, and, if I say nothing, then he will do nothing. That internal sensor that says ‘Hey, the dishes are dirty, maybe I should wash them’ just doesn’t go off with him. So I have to point out to him that the dish fairy does not come along at night and tidy things up. He counters with ‘Oh yeah, then how come if I don’t do them, they’ll still be clean in the morning?’ 
Smarty pants.I would LOVE to never again ask my husband to do something, over and over again.
But I just don’t see that happening.He’s a good man, though. Well, a great man actually. Great men still need to wash the dishes.
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ac_claire
Guest
Speaking of household chores, and since you mentioned books earlier in the thread…
I’ve found that most books out there that deal with submission in marrigae are written by evangelical or fundamentalist protestants and have a tendency to be very unbalanced, often taking otherwise good points to unhealthy extremes.
For example, I read a book a few months ago called “Created to Be His Helpmeet”… There were a few insights in the book that are IMO priceless and really helped me to understand the whole submission thing and husband/wife relationships in general. However, there are other aspects of the book that are just bad advice in my opinion, so bad in fact that it almost negates the good parts. The writer is not Catholic-- which might explain some of the weird imbalance of advice, since fundamentalists don’t really have a strong anchor when it comes to interpreting biblical doctrine.
Anyhow…my point is the book addresses things like, what do you do if you have to nag your husband to do chores? What if you “have no choice” because otherwise the work won’t get done…? The author’s advice to wives is to just give up, basically. Do the dishes yourself; take the trash out yourself. Accept your man for who he is and the great ways he supports his family and if you find him lacking in certain areas…well, just lower your expectations. That’s the gist of it.
So, yeah…as I was saying I’m interested in learning more about this myself from a Catholic viewpoint. Especially how to gracefully handle the nagging/housework thing…
I’ve found that most books out there that deal with submission in marrigae are written by evangelical or fundamentalist protestants and have a tendency to be very unbalanced, often taking otherwise good points to unhealthy extremes.
For example, I read a book a few months ago called “Created to Be His Helpmeet”… There were a few insights in the book that are IMO priceless and really helped me to understand the whole submission thing and husband/wife relationships in general. However, there are other aspects of the book that are just bad advice in my opinion, so bad in fact that it almost negates the good parts. The writer is not Catholic-- which might explain some of the weird imbalance of advice, since fundamentalists don’t really have a strong anchor when it comes to interpreting biblical doctrine.
Anyhow…my point is the book addresses things like, what do you do if you have to nag your husband to do chores? What if you “have no choice” because otherwise the work won’t get done…? The author’s advice to wives is to just give up, basically. Do the dishes yourself; take the trash out yourself. Accept your man for who he is and the great ways he supports his family and if you find him lacking in certain areas…well, just lower your expectations. That’s the gist of it.
So, yeah…as I was saying I’m interested in learning more about this myself from a Catholic viewpoint. Especially how to gracefully handle the nagging/housework thing…
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kage_ar
Guest
At the risk of getting way off track, nagging one’s husband (or wife) is never the way to a peaceful home. Been there, done that, do not want the T-shirt.
My rule, ask 2X, nicely. If it is not done, then I do it, I hire someone or it does not really need to be done.
You mentioned dishes. Yep, dishes need to be done.
The time to talk about it is NOT when there is a sink full of dishes and everyone just wants to veg on the couch.
Set aside some time. Sit down and talk about what needs to be done in the house, what schedules are like. Who will do what when. Decide as a couple. If he is tired after a hard day at work, maybe he takes dishes duty on Saturday and Sunday. Go to paper plates if you have to!! Don’t let dishes be something that leads you to nagging. Nagging is poision to a marriage.
Don’t forget to put kids chores in there.
My rule, ask 2X, nicely. If it is not done, then I do it, I hire someone or it does not really need to be done.
You mentioned dishes. Yep, dishes need to be done.
The time to talk about it is NOT when there is a sink full of dishes and everyone just wants to veg on the couch.
Set aside some time. Sit down and talk about what needs to be done in the house, what schedules are like. Who will do what when. Decide as a couple. If he is tired after a hard day at work, maybe he takes dishes duty on Saturday and Sunday. Go to paper plates if you have to!! Don’t let dishes be something that leads you to nagging. Nagging is poision to a marriage.
Don’t forget to put kids chores in there.
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GraceDK
Guest
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Rayne. I underlined the part most useful to me
I am not married, but I will take that constructive critizism to heart anyway. Actually I often dont think men capable of this and that… I treat them a bit like babies… maybe because my mother always did everything around the house and dad couldnt even iron his own shirt, do his own dishes or change a diper, let alone buy a shirt… I call mom MIRACLE MOM, because she took care of everything. I can only hope that the men on these fora are not like a third or fifth child to their busy wife.
I think I actually need to set my expectations for men much much higher than I have done thus far both when it comes to their mind and actions.
Peace
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deb1
Guest
I think that it is important for women to not think that everything has to be done the wives way.
Once, as a young mother, I had a friend really making fun of her husband’s care of their child. She talked about how her husband couldn’t even match the baby’s socks to his outfit.
After she left, my grandmother told me that the woman was almost guarenteeing that her husband would stop helping her with childcare. She said that if the husband wasn’t doing anything harmful to his child then his wife should just be quiet and let him have his own manner of being a parent.
I thought she was correct.
I’ve seen women shoot their selves in the foot. Maybe their husband’s fold towels or pack a dishwasher different then they do. Instead of just letting it go and saying this is his way of doing something, they get mad and mock their hubby’s. Later they wonder why their husbands don’t help around the house unless they are nagged.
Once, as a young mother, I had a friend really making fun of her husband’s care of their child. She talked about how her husband couldn’t even match the baby’s socks to his outfit.
After she left, my grandmother told me that the woman was almost guarenteeing that her husband would stop helping her with childcare. She said that if the husband wasn’t doing anything harmful to his child then his wife should just be quiet and let him have his own manner of being a parent.
I thought she was correct.
I’ve seen women shoot their selves in the foot. Maybe their husband’s fold towels or pack a dishwasher different then they do. Instead of just letting it go and saying this is his way of doing something, they get mad and mock their hubby’s. Later they wonder why their husbands don’t help around the house unless they are nagged.
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PJM
Guest
Dear friend in Christ,
Allow me to began with a personal confession. I did’t know exactly what it meant and it darn near cost us our marriage. We’ve made it 41 years and counting so far
Certainly there are some that take these words with complete literacy. If that is the case BY MUTUAL discussion and agreement, then so be it.
Keep in mind the time-period that these were written, and to whom and by whom.
The Chrurch teaches today, in prudence born of experience, that (are you ready for this?) marriage take two people! WOW!
OK, lets get serious again.
Marriage does take two people in many ways. It is with God’s help, giving life, in raising children, in managing the household, and in earned income.
What is best, is what is best for each and BOTH of you, with equal consideration. And this is matter for discussion AND AGREEMENT B4 you get married!
God didn’t stop at making us male and female, with different way’s of thinking. No, our physiology, our intuitive, our emotional differences are different because God intends them to be used in tandem.
Ideally we have the courage and honesty to recogonize each other strengths and weaknesses, admit them, and then figure out how to use each others God given gifts to utilize them for mutual benefit.
Allow one to “be in charge” so to speak of the things that person is best suited for. Kids need both moms and dads for different reasons, in order to become “normitive” and functional in the real world. Marriage is a “team sport!”
For example my wife has been in Banking for a great many years. She’s better with money than I am. So she does the budgeting. This NOT mean. we don’t discuss big issues in advance. we do. She is also more mechanically inclined than I am. So she fixes things (my job it seems is to break them).
I on the other hand an far more artistic, so I decorate the house. hang pictures, pick paint colors ect. Also, I’m (she says) a far better communicator, so except for phone calls… (a speciallity of hers) I handle communications and contracts and the like. I am alos better at school and studying, so I work these areas.
Before I retired we shared housework. Now she still works so I do it all and also the cooking, which I really like to do.
But everyone knows, that sometimes there has to be “a final decission made.” There should always be open discussion on major matters, but in the end, the man is the “head” of the household, and if push comes to shove… heaven forbid! Then the man, “has to do what a man has to do.” Just as God is our Father, the head of our (His) Church, God does intend for the man to assume his proper leadership role, BUT ONLY when absolutely necessary.
A family is a unit with two equal partners MOST OF THE TIME:thumbsup:
Hope this is of some help?
Love and prayers,
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GraceDK
Guest
my dad tried to tell my mom how to fill the dishwasher saying his way was much smarter. mom sighed, because dad never takes the dishes, but still had an oppinion about how they should be done.
men and women nag equally i guess… i dont think its a woman thing but a patience thing. also, dad might want the car to look spotless and makes a fuss about that while mom wants my clothes to look tidy and matching. i see nothing wrong in either interest.
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PJM
Guest
By Golly I think you get it:clapping:I think one must use common sense in their marriage.
Love and prayers,
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deb1
Guest
I hang around more with women, so I this is probably why I see this type of nagging with women more then men.
I have given up trying to dress my oldest son who, for some odd reason, would rather wear the same three holey shirts every day.
Nagging him is not worth the pain.
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BiologyBrain
Guest
I think nagging is generally when its repetitive and w/ a ‘tone’. For instance, you telling your husband (if you did so literally) “The dish fairy isn’t going to wash the dishes.” Could be interpreted as nagging b/c I’m guessing it was said sarcastically. Simply asking for help would be asking in the same manner you’d like to be asked.
When I have to tell my husband (he doesn’t like dirty dishes or dirty clothes either) to help me around the house b/c I can’t do it myself there are 2 ways I can do it…
- It must be nice to have clean dishes & clothes while you sit & watch TV again.
- I’m really busy w/ our son & work, do you think you could help me w/ the dishes & laundry?
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Inquisitivus
Guest
I believe that whatevergirl got it exactly right. Men need the opportunity to be men and to be leaders. I believe most of us rise to the occasion when given a chance. I’ve been married for 21 very good years, but I see a lot of wives who want everything to be 50/50 or who mother their husbands, and I just don’t see that working. Men need to be providers and need the support of a good wife to reach their potential. Challenging a husband on every decision or choice, pushing for 50/50 equity in each area of life, does not lead to a successful marriage from what I’ve seen. 100/100, accepting God’s roles for each of us, and total commitment is what makes a marriage work. The couples that I see this in all seem to have very strong, loving, and fulfilling marriages.
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moon1234
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Not true. My wife promised to love, honor and obey during our vows. Were were married at a Traditional Latin Mass. The words were there in the vows we read. My wife chose to keep them as they were.
Obeying does not mean the husband becomes some dictator. Ephesians teachs us the following:
God setup man to be the head of his family just as Christ is head of the church. Wives are to be submissve to their husbands as the Church is to Christ. This means the husband must always act in the same manner as Christ would for the church. The husband can not violate any of God’s laws in leading his family. It is his duty to provide for, love, protect and if need be, die for his wife and family.
In the same manner the wife is to love, honor and obey he husband as the head of the family. In the holy family both Jesus and Mary submitted to St. Joseph even though St. Joseph was a mere mortal neither devine nor both free from sin. In so doing Jesus re-affirms the husband as the head of the family.
There may be times when both Spouses disagree on something. In these situations, the wife should submit to her husband as long as her husbands decision does not violate God’s law.
In real life these situations are VERY rare. Both spouses discuss all major issues. There is rarely discontent as the husband usually listens take his wifes counsel to heart when making decisions.
The 20th century women’s lib movement has so distorted this order that we now have high divorce rates and wimpy men who can’t order their families. The kids are brats, they talk back, etc. They emulate the relationship their parents demonstrate to them.
You would do your husband great honor in pledging to love, honor and obey him. It will be a constant reminder that he must be a Chirst like example is his love for you and his family.
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moon1234
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I am a man. Great I qualified.
For all you ladies out there. The hardest part in my marraige is when my wife NAGS me. She does it less often now, but in the not too distant past I would hear the following:
"Why can’t you help with housework more. I am here all day and tired." Valid, but there was no acknowledgement that I had worked all day too.
**“Let me cook that, you have no clue what you are doing” ** Ok I tried to cook. I admitted I was not a good cook, but was being nagged because I never cooked. I now make homemade bread. It is the one thing I do in the kitchen that my wife has no desire to do.
My nagging is usually “Are you interested tonight?” to which I usually get the following reply “If you were home with kids all day, THAT would be the LAST thing on your mind”. Usually leaves me really bummed. I understand she is tried and just smile, but I feel lonely on many days when I hear this.
It is rare that I hear a thank you. Even more rare to hear “I love you, your a great a husband.” I think the last line I have heard a total of two or three times. I am sure it is not intentional, but I look for this approval.
I want my wife to affirm to me that I am doin a good job. When she wants help I need specifics on what she wants me to do. Too many times I feel I am left to devine what she wants.
I am good at commonsense things. Dishwasher dies. We pick buy new one and I install it. Motor dies on clothes washer, I rebuild it. Kids destroy garage door with football stuck in door while opener kills door (grrrrrrr), I replace the door. I did all those things just because, but I never got a thank you or a “Hey great job.” I look for those things, but rarely get them.
Never underestimate the power of stroking a mans ego. We LIKE to hear we are doing a good job. If something bothers you tell us CLEARLY what you want. I prefer “I need help in the kitchen sweeping and mopping. It is hard to do that and make meals every day with the kids.” I now know that she wants me to do this from time to time and I just do it.
If she makes one off requests over and over then I start to consider it nagging.
Sorry for my long rant. Just something to chew on.
For all you ladies out there. The hardest part in my marraige is when my wife NAGS me. She does it less often now, but in the not too distant past I would hear the following:
"Why can’t you help with housework more. I am here all day and tired." Valid, but there was no acknowledgement that I had worked all day too.
**“Let me cook that, you have no clue what you are doing” ** Ok I tried to cook. I admitted I was not a good cook, but was being nagged because I never cooked. I now make homemade bread. It is the one thing I do in the kitchen that my wife has no desire to do.
My nagging is usually “Are you interested tonight?” to which I usually get the following reply “If you were home with kids all day, THAT would be the LAST thing on your mind”. Usually leaves me really bummed. I understand she is tried and just smile, but I feel lonely on many days when I hear this.
It is rare that I hear a thank you. Even more rare to hear “I love you, your a great a husband.” I think the last line I have heard a total of two or three times. I am sure it is not intentional, but I look for this approval.
I want my wife to affirm to me that I am doin a good job. When she wants help I need specifics on what she wants me to do. Too many times I feel I am left to devine what she wants.
I am good at commonsense things. Dishwasher dies. We pick buy new one and I install it. Motor dies on clothes washer, I rebuild it. Kids destroy garage door with football stuck in door while opener kills door (grrrrrrr), I replace the door. I did all those things just because, but I never got a thank you or a “Hey great job.” I look for those things, but rarely get them.
Never underestimate the power of stroking a mans ego. We LIKE to hear we are doing a good job. If something bothers you tell us CLEARLY what you want. I prefer “I need help in the kitchen sweeping and mopping. It is hard to do that and make meals every day with the kids.” I now know that she wants me to do this from time to time and I just do it.
If she makes one off requests over and over then I start to consider it nagging.
Sorry for my long rant. Just something to chew on.
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Sillara
Guest
I am thrilled when my husband comes home wanting . . . me.
I love that. It makes me feel beautiful. I try not to nag my husband about anything. I think I’ve got it down fairly well. I also have no quarrel with obeying my husband, either. He is the head of our household, and he is the one who is responsible for us. Therefore, the decisions fall on his shoulders. I do my best to explain what I think is good and why I think so, and usually we agree. If we disagree, his way goes. Of course, I do feel like he listens to me and respects my opinion. However, he is also safe with me. He knows I am not going to tear him down in any way. Why would I? He’s my Knight-in-Shining-Armor!
I just realized that this might seem sappy, unrealistic, and the sort of answer given by a “dippy” woman who has no genuine thoughts of her own. That is quite untrue. I am educated (MA in Shakespeare) and well able to hold a job (I used to teach at a Catholic junior high). I have something of a bright and forward personality, but I never talk down to my husband. And he is always kind and respectful to me. It works well.
We’ve been married for nearly twelve years now.
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GraceDK
Guest
Hey brother.
Sorry you feel like that.
For us who would like to be loved and wanted in a marriage these things sometimes sound odd.
At any rate… I think that men and women are alike when it comes to wanting affirmation. I have only had two boyfriends but I got lavished with compliments … and I mean genuine, creative and unique compliments, both when it came to the tone and the content. I believe I gave as many back and made the man feel like “he da man!” and it was all genuine and heartfel.
I think if you charm her she will respond. Nothing gives a woman so much renewed energy as when the man she loves treats her like a princess. Surprise her…
Also. If she really feels burdened and your communication is not so good, she might feel a bit humiliated if you come asking for sex… I am not saying I get the whole picture, only that it would hurt my own feelings if my love overlooked my needs in some ways but was always ready when it came to this aspect of married life.
You get what I mean…
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happymommy
Guest
I’m sorry your wife doesn’t appreciate all that you do! I adore my husband. He is such a gift from God and I tell him that everyday. I make sure I say it in front of the kids too, so they know how hard he works so I can be at home. Does he do everything perfect? No, but neither do I. But I look at it this way, if the worse thing I have to complain about him is that he puts his clothes on top of the hamper, instead of in it…I really don’t have a lot to complain about! He’s not real quick to finish projects he starts, but he comes home to me every night, treats me like I’m a princess, tells me I’m beautiful, treasures our children and leads this family in our faith…so the garage is a mess with his “projects”, who cares. I don’t sweat the small stuff!
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whatevergirl
Guest
aw, moon…
Well…does she know you feel this way?
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