Wives, Submit to your own husbands as to the Lord

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ac_claire said:
It is a Catholic forum though, severus. The impression I’m getting is that what you truly don’t care for is anyone pointing out that your personal opinions are not worthy of consideration when they contradict the Church’s own teachings. My tone is nothing; it’s the words that offend you…If I was instead, with the same tone, praising your personal opinions and stating that they “really aren’t so different from the Church’s after all!” would my tone still offend you? But that would be dishonest, and therefore uncharitable.

True Christ-like love is not all about warm fuzzies and group hugs. I’d never, ever want to be guilty of confirming anyone in their sin, ignorance or pride. I’d hate for someone to do the same thing to me, and I pray none of yall ever do.
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I do understand what forum this, thank you. Your impression is your impression. It is based on your close mindedness and your inability to even think about what anyone who differs fin any way from your view, says. I am not here for praise.I am not insisting or even asking you to agree with me.
 
severus68 said:
I do understand what forum this, thank you. Your impression is your impression. It is based on your close mindedness and your inability to even think about what anyone who differs fin any way from your view, says. I am not here for praise.I am not insisting or even asking you to agree with me.
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Once again, this illustrates our main problem here. I wish you could understand. This will be the last time I try to explain it to you; after this I’ll have to conlcude that you’re being obtuse on purpose.

I am NOT arguing for my own personal view as you keep insisting. This isn’t a matter of one opinion against another opinion. It’s your opinion vs. the teaching of the Church which is God’s Truth. You keep positioning it as though the Church’s teaching is just one more opinion out there and even though your opinion contradicts it, all opinions are equally valid, etc., etc. and frankly that’s just nonsense.
 
It’s like saying because this is an open forum, which apparently means without any basis or objective groundlines (like the teachings of the Church as under discussion here), I could state the perfectly acceptable opinion that women should be demeaningly subservient, trampled upon, and used because they are inferior, stupid, and useless without a man. It’s absolutely bullsquat, but because this is a forum, I’m entitled to my opinion even though it’s not opinions that are on the table, but established teachings of the Church.

Since quabbling over whether one’s opinion and hurt feelings are enough to override valid Church teachings isn’t what this thread is about, does anyone have anything to say that is on topic?
 
ac_claire said:
Once again, this illustrates our main problem here. I wish you could understand. This will be the last time I try to explain it to you; after this I’ll have to conlcude that you’re being obtuse on purpose.

I am NOT arguing for my own personal view as you keep insisting. This isn’t a matter of one opinion against another opinion. It’s your opinion vs. the teaching of the Church which is God’s Truth. You keep positioning it as though the Church’s teaching is just one more opinion out there and even though your opinion contradicts it, all opinions are equally valid, etc., etc. and frankly that’s just nonsense.
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It looks like you are being deliberately purpose or are you just…whatever. You do not have to explain anything to me, I at least listen to what you say.

You know very well that I am not arguing against any teachings of Christ or the Church, just your view of what they are.
 
adopted_heir said:
It’s like saying because this is an open forum, which apparently means without any basis or objective groundlines (like the teachings of the Church as under discussion here), I could state the perfectly acceptable opinion that women should be demeaningly subservient, trampled upon, and used because they are inferior, stupid, and useless without a man. It’s absolutely bullsquat, but because this is a forum, I’m entitled to my opinion even though it’s not opinions that are on the table, but established teachings of the Church.

Since quabbling over whether one’s opinion and hurt feelings are enough to override valid Church teachings isn’t what this thread is about, does anyone have anything to say that is on topic?
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Please do not misinterpret and misquothe. Who is squabbling here I wonder. I can only be hurt by people I care about and those I respect. S, definitely no hurt feelings on my side.
 
adopted_heir said:
It’s like saying because this is an open forum, which apparently means without any basis or objective groundlines (like the teachings of the Church as under discussion here), I could state the perfectly acceptable opinion that women should be demeaningly subservient, trampled upon, and used because they are inferior, stupid, and useless without a man. It’s absolutely bullsquat, but because this is a forum, I’m entitled to my opinion even though it’s not opinions that are on the table, but established teachings of the Church.

Since quabbling over whether one’s opinion and hurt feelings are enough to override valid Church teachings isn’t what this thread is about, does anyone have anything to say that is on topic?
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Actually though this is a Catholic forum, meant to guide Catholics and inform non-catholics like myself, it is still open enough in that it is open to even non-Christians to come and share their views on things and participate in debate. So I think you have to accept sometimes coming across views that are not Christian teaching (according to you).

Yes if you wanted to argue that women should be trampled upon, you are allowed to. Of course all those with common sense are not going to be converted to such a view. If we are confident in what we believe in, we should not take such offence to other people expressing their opinions/views. I understand that on this forum one Catholic is not supposed to encourage another to sin, fair enough, but I dont think anyone is trying to do that here. I know that all of you were not addressing me, but using myself as an example-I am not catholic, so some of the way I see things might not be in line with Christian teachings(i come from a christian family however and retain many of the values) however as long as as not misleading anyone no one can tell me that my words have no place on this forum.
 
severus68 said:
It looks like you are being deliberately purpose or are you just…whatever. You do not have to explain anything to me, I at least listen to what you say.

You know very well that I am not arguing against any teachings of Christ or the Church, just your view of what they are.
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No, the thing that is troubling to me is that I know you are arguing against teachings of the Church. You haven’t been vague and mysterious here, severus. Your words are clear. Otherwise I wouldn’t be wasting my time going back and forth with you. Show me where I posted anything that is my opinion that contradicts what the Church teaches. My opinion IS the Church teaching. I found out what the Bible says and what the Church teaches and I’ve prayed for faith and made a decision to accept and believe it and make it my own opinion. I *by no means *do this perfectly, sometimes my own pride still gets in the way, but my goal is to conform my own will to that of God’s. Which is revealed to us through the Church.

You are pre-occupied with “your views”…“your opinion”…"*your *interpretation"…You bring it up in the majority of your posts. Instead of talking about your view, or my view, we could talk about what the Bible actually says, and what the Church teaches.

I’ll go back and link to the relevant posts and documents again if you’d like…?
 
ac_claire said:
No, the thing that is troubling to me is that I know you are arguing against teachings of the Church. You haven’t been vague and mysterious here, severus. Your words are clear. Otherwise I wouldn’t be wasting my time going back and forth with you. Show me where I posted anything that is my opinion that contradicts what the Church teaches. My opinion IS the Church teaching. I found out what the Bible says and what the Church teaches and I’ve prayed for faith and made a decision to accept and believe it and make it my own opinion. I *by no means *do this perfectly, sometimes my own pride still gets in the way, but my goal is to conform my own will to that of God’s. Which is revealed to us through the Church.

You are pre-occupied with “your views”…“your opinion”…"*your *interpretation"…You bring it up in the majority of your posts. Instead of talking about your view, or my view, we could talk about what the Bible actually says, and what the Church teaches.

I’ll go back and link to the relevant posts and documents again if you’d like…?
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You know what you think you know.

Thank you for sharing about your faith and I am not being sarcastic.

The problem here is that when you say it is the teachings of the Church, to me, it is your opinion. I know you think the same way about my posts and that’s alright with me. Further it is not (to me of course) an issue to be dogmatic about. Each one should have a marriage that is the kind he/ she wants. If a Christian follows Christ in his/her marriage, that is more than sufficient and it is not for anyone to interfere in a marriage unless there is clear abuse, spousal or child. No one knows the hearts of men but God and marriage is personal.
 
JaneGrey said:
Yes if you wanted to argue that women should be trampled upon, you are allowed to. Of course all those with common sense are not going to be converted to such a view.
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Nobody has made such an argument on this thread, Jane. Not even close. This claim is what’s known as a straw man. 😉
severus68 said:
You know what you think you know.

Thank you for sharing about your faith and I am not being sarcastic.

The problem here is that when you say it is the teachings of the Church, to me, it is your opinion. I know you think the same way about my posts and that’s alright with me. Further it is not (to me of course) an issue to be dogmatic about. Each one should have a marriage that is the kind he/ she wants. If a Christian follows Christ in his/her marriage, that is more than sufficient and it is not for anyone to interfere in a marriage unless there is clear abuse, spousal or child. No one knows the hearts of men but God and marriage is personal.
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The personal things at the end of your post are irrelevent. Nobody has told you how you are to conduct your own marriage. We’ve been discussing the Church’s teaching on the nature of marriage and of man and woman. You say “The problem here is that when you say it is the teachings of the Church, to me, it is your opinion.” There’s no reason why this should be something to argue about. If I or anyone else presents something as being a teaching of the Church, it either is or it isn’t. Especially when it’s a documented quote from the CCC or the saints or magisterial teaching or the Scriptures. There shouldn’t have to be any “to me, it’s you’re opinion” about it. You see what I’m saying? These things are so easily verifiable. The information is there, if you choose to verify it. If not, and you are content to just tell me that it’s “my opinion” then your heart is hardened and there’s nothing more I or anyone else can do.

And I didn’t think you’re being sarcastic, severus. God bless you. 🙂
 
ac_claire said:
Nobody has made such an argument on this thread, Jane. Not even close. This claim is what’s known as a straw man. 😉

The personal things at the end of your post are irrelevent. Nobody has told you how you are to conduct your own marriage. We’ve been discussing the Church’s teaching on the nature of marriage and of man and woman. You say “The problem here is that when you say it is the teachings of the Church, to me, it is your opinion.” There’s no reason why this should be something to argue about. If I or anyone else presents something as being a teaching of the Church, it either is or it isn’t. Especially when it’s a documented quote from the CCC or the saints or magisterial teaching or the Scriptures. There shouldn’t have to be any “to me, it’s you’re opinion” about it. You see what I’m saying? These things are so easily verifiable. The information is there, if you choose to verify it. If not, and you are content to just tell me that it’s “my opinion” then your heart is hardened and there’s nothing more I or anyone else can do.

And I didn’t think you’re being sarcastic, severus. God bless you. 🙂
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It has looked as if you are telling people how their marriages should be when you insist heir roles should be a certain way. Since you say it is what the Church says it means then it is incumbant on you to verify. I have tried to show how I have verified my view but obviously that’s not enough for you… Since my heart is “hardened”, maybe you should accept that I won’t change what I believe.

God bless you too.
 
LOL Just when I think I’m out…
severus68 said:
It has looked as if you are telling people how their marriages should be when you insist heir roles should be a certain way. Since you say it is what the Church says it means then it is incumbant on you to verify.
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For the last time, let’s boil all this down: you are obstinately refusing to accept that the husband has any authority in a marriage as the head of the wife/family.

If showing you-- repeatedly– exactly where it’s written in the Scriptures, and linking to/quoting *directly *from the documents themselves isn’t enough verification for you that this is, indeed, what the Church teaches…then there is absolutely nothing more that anyone can do. You don’t have ears to hear or eyes to see at this point because you’re denying what’s plainly right in front of you and everyone else. It’s like insisting that the sky isn’t blue.
I have tried to show how I have verified my view but obviously that’s not enough for you.
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That your views are your views needs no verification. But as I’ve said I don’t care for personal views that contradict what the Church teaches. You shouldn’t either.
severus68 said:
I read it when you first posted the link. It is nothing more than an opinion given in an article.
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Wow…really? Magisterial teaching is just another opinion. Ok then.

God bless.
 
ac_claire said:
LOL Just when I think I’m out…

For the last time, let’s boil all this down: you are obstinately refusing to accept that the husband has any authority in a marriage as the head of the wife/family.

If showing you-- repeatedly– exactly where it’s written in the Scriptures, and linking to/quoting *directly *from the documents themselves isn’t enough verification for you that this is, indeed, what the Church teaches…then there is absolutely nothing more that anyone can do. You don’t have ears to hear or eyes to see at this point because you’re denying what’s plainly right in front of you and everyone else. It’s like insisting that the sky isn’t blue.

That your views are your views needs no verification. But as I’ve said I don’t care for personal views that contradict what the Church teaches. You shouldn’t either.

Wow…really? Magisterial teaching is just another opinion. Ok then.

God bless.
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That’s very clever. Tell us who wrote that aricle and where, and it is an article. If I don’t want to hear, as you say, you are not being forced to say anything to me.
 
severus68 said:
That’s very clever. Tell us who wrote that aricle and where, and it is an article. If I don’t want to hear, as you say, you are not being forced to say anything to me.
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It’s an exhaustive list of quotes and references from the Magisterium of the Church and the saints. As far as who compiled it, I don’t know and that’s not really the point. I suppose anyone who reads it can go through and verify the bibliography for themselves.
If you’ve already decided that you reject a fundamental teaching of the Church, then obviously writings *from the Church *will mean nothing to you.
 
ac_claire said:
It’s an exhaustive list of quotes and references from the Magisterium of the Church and the saints. As far as who compiled it, I don’t know and that’s not really the point. I suppose anyone who reads it can go through and verify the bibliography for themselves.
If you’ve already decided that you reject a fundamental teaching of the Church, then obviously writings *from the Church *will mean nothing to you.
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You were specific and gave a link, I read it. You gave 2 links on that post, I went to both.
 
[Edit to above post: The Magisterial teaching documents and quoted writings of the saints in buffalo’s link were compiled by the Family Life Center International.]

Severus, help me understand where you’re coming from. It’s been shown to you over and over and over that the Church teaches men and women are equal in dignity but have different roles, and that the husband has authority in the family and is the head of the wife. If you are* truly sincere *in insisting that you don’t believe the Church teaches this…then what exactly do you think the Church does teach instead, on this topic?
 
ac_claire said:
[Edit to above post: The Magisterial teaching documents and quoted writings of the saints in buffalo’s link were compiled by the Family Life Center International.]

Severus, help me understand where you’re coming from. It’s been shown to you over and over and over that the Church teaches men and women are equal in dignity but have different roles, and that the husband has authority in the family and is the head of the wife. If you are* truly sincere *in insisting that you don’t believe the Church teaches this…then what exactly do you think the Church does teach instead, on this topic?
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I have given the links and extacts before but will compile some. I will need some time please as I am not terribly IT savvy and a terrible typist.
 
ac_claire said:
[Edit to above post: The Magisterial teaching documents and quoted writings of the saints in buffalo’s link were compiled by the Family Life Center International.]

Severus, help me understand where you’re coming from. It’s been shown to you over and over and over that the Church teaches men and women are equal in dignity but have different roles, and that the husband has authority in the family and is the head of the wife. If you are* truly sincere *in insisting that you don’t believe the Church teaches this…then what exactly do you think the Church does teach instead, on this topic?
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Here is a link Catholic Perspective on: Women in Society and in the Church.
 
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