Women, how should catholic men treat you?

[KathleenT]

Ahhh, that makes much more sense.

 

[Lea101]

First of all, I have avoided the use of the word chivalry. I really don’t like that word. So I will answer your question, reworded a bit. Do I think being a gentleman leads towards outdated views on women?

Why not? Chivalry is exactly what we’re talking about, and rephrasing that to immediately sound like a positive (gentleman) is dishonest since it would imply that guys, who are not doing those things, are not gentlemen.

Again, I do not see how having a mindset that women should be treated with respect and dignity can lead to treating women poorly or having the view that women are inferior. If anything, it should lead to the opposite.

Again, you’re twisting it to suit you. Lack of chivalry doesn’t mean that women aren’t being treated with respect and dignity.

Without fail, if a woman is in a lead role (eg as a detective), she is always dressed in a overly sexy fashion, tintilating even. The men in the same position are always dressed rather conservatively or normal.

I agree that women are more sexualised than men, although unfortunately men are becoming more sexualised as well.

So I would hope, in a small way, that learning to act as gentlemen towards women will lead back to an outdated view of women: Women being respected for their femininity.

Again, you’re conflating ‘being a gentleman’ and ‘chivalrous’ together. You would make a good politician

So answer this, how does opening a door (I decided to distill this down) show respect for femininity, and why?

 

[Lea101]

I did not hear such stuff from radical feminists but from men themselves. I also heard it from my parents who told me to pay my own way when out on a date to prevent this expectation from taking place.

A male friend of mine once complained how he had paid movie tickets and his date wouldn’t even give him a kiss. When I told him that paying for the date doesn’t make him entitled to anything, he got annoyed and said that he would just not bother going out of his way then.

I may be young, but I know many of my friends had a similar experience. He wasn’t even a jerk too, just an average 22 year old who has his good and bad moments.

 

[Lea101]

Women, you are different. Y’all are in no ways less valuable than men, in several ways more valuable (forgive the imprecision of language; you know the sentiment In getting at) and worthy of respect. By men, you ought to be held as more sacred and worthy of protection.

That’s the thing though. Men are just as important and valuable. They should not be treated as less worthy at all.

I grew up wrestling and fighting with my brothers. I have experienced swift kicks to my stomach (and have given it back to them, lol). They don’t have to treat me differently for me to feel like I’m equally respected. The fact that they treated me the same taught me from a young age that I was just as respected and it taught me to be less entitled as well. Chivalry for them is basically a part of romance (I.e. They open doors etc for a girl they’re interested in) rather than a way to treat all women.

I don’t necessarily care enough to fight back against chivalry, but I do think the reasoning behind it is outdated.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Holding a door is too trivial to matter.

 

[ShrodingersCat]

I agree with you. That attitude served as an excuse to put women down and not let them have certain careers or even have their opinion valued. And it’s well established that exercise during pregnancy is very good for you, as long as your doctor says what you want to do is OK.

 

[Elf01]

Alice von Hildebrand wrote and spoke regularly on the special dignity of women. She wrote of a book called “The Privilege of Being a Woman.” It addresses the sacred reality of a being a potential life-giver, and the womb being a holy place where God creates life. I believe her point is that this is where the special efforts to show a higher level of care and respect for women comes from .

Dressed up in nice language but that essentially implies that a womans value is her womb. I think women want to be seen as more than wombs.

I understand giving a pregnant woman extra consideration for her health and that of the child.

Women used to be treated carefully as it was believed that they were more physically and emotionally sensitive. It was thought they could seriously injure themselves or their babies if they worked or exercised like men. It was also a thought that women’s emotions were more finely tuned than men’s and that they could be damaged with too much stress in their lives.

And that one goes back to the seeing women as delicate argument.

 

[Sarcelle]

This heart of the family definitely applies to wives and mothers.

How about single women, consecrated religious or childless married women?

Not all women are wives and mothers.

 

[Sarcelle]

You are in Asia, Singapore to be specific right?

I am American and of Asian descent. This chivalry is alien to me. I am aware of basic courtesy but chivalry is a European concept, which apples mainly to the nobility, and not necessarily a Catholic one.

Now don’t get me wrong, if a man wants to practice chivalry and treat me accordingly, I shall behave like a lady and thank him sincerely for being gallant.

 

[Sarcelle]

The women are delicate flowers is a Victorian concept I think and applies mainly to the emerging Victorian middle classes. I detect a certain type of maudlin sentimentality present in the Victorian mindset. Women who have had to toil in the factories or farms or in the homes of the upper classes were certainly not considered as delicate flowers.

 

[Lea101]

Yup. Chivalry isn’t really a thing, although stuff like paying for dates tend to be quite prevalent. It’s more ‘dating etiquette’/being ‘romantic’ than a statement of women.

This is not to say that Asians are egalitarian (I’m sure you know as well), but it’s just that chivalry isn’t there. I guess respecting elders is our version of it. Serving elders first etc.

My experience with the Indian culture and from my friends who are more traditional, men are served/looked after first.

My family don’t really bother with all of that. As mentioned earlier, my brothers and I would kick the heck out of each other. Even now, as adults, they don’t treat me differently because I’m a woman.

My very few experiences of chivalry have been pretty awkward (an ex colleague would rush to the door and open it, even if he’s not walking in that way), but yeah, I basically say thank you and move on.

I don’t view them more positively/negatively, since chivalry isn’t a good indicator of character.

 

[Sarcelle]

Yes, in my Muslim culture, men are served and looked after first.

Women do not wear burkas though since it seen as a more as an Arab thing than a Malay thing.

By the way, I am not Muslim although friends and family are.

 

[Lea101]

Yeah. A lot of things were ‘thought’ but science shows that there were a lot of misconceptions. Pregnant women can exercise (as long as a doctor approves), and women can withstand a lot of turmoil.

Women are all different, due to different hardships. Some may be weak, but others may be tough

 

[Lea101]

I didn’t know you are Malay, that’s cool. I’ve never come across a Malay Christian/Catholic before, although I suspect it’s because the culture frowns on converts.

 

[Mi_Rose]

Are we allowed to link to personal blogs?

 

[Sarcelle]

Luckily I live in the US.

My father calls himself an atheist but he will say he is Muslim if questioned by others.

 

[Sarcelle]

Yes

You lose your Malay identity once you convert.

 

[tafan2]

Why not? Chivalry is exactly what we’re talking about, and rephrasing that to immediately sound like a positive (gentleman) is dishonest since it would imply that guys, who are not doing those things, are not gentlemen.

Why don’t I like the term chivalry? Because, of its obvious medieval origins, it implies it is archaic, or as others have said European, applies to nobility. In other words, it implies it is no longer applicable. There is absolutely nothing dishonest about how I reworded the question. Let me be clear, all else being equal, a man who does these things for women (open doors, pull back their chairs, pay for dinner, etc) is more gentlemanly than a man who does not. Nothing dishonest about that. And even if I used the term chivalry, a man who does them is more chivalrous than a man who does not. Again, nothing dishonest at all, just an opinion. You are ok with the second opinion because of the word chivalry, as opposed to gentlemanly, precisely because it implies something archaic that does not apply any longer. But to make you happy, and to avoid accusations of dishonesty, I will use the terms interchangeably from here on.

Again, you’re twisting it to suit you. Lack of chivalry doesn’t mean that women aren’t being treated with respect and dignity.

I have twisted nothing. I never said that lack of chivalry (happy? I used your term) implies one does not treat women with respect or dignity. What I said was that with respect to the question you asked, ie does it lead to outdated views on women? And my answer was no (qualifying the outdated views on women). In other words, treating women with respect does not lead to treating women with no respect. You twisted my words, not the other way around. A implies B is not equivalent the B implies A.

Again, you’re conflating ‘being a gentleman’ and ‘chivalrous’ together. You would make a good politicia

From the dictionary : gentleman: a chivalrous, courteous, or honorable man.
From the dictionary chivalry: 1) the combination of qualities expected of an ideal knight, especially courage, honor, courtesy, justice, and a readiness to help the weak. 2) courteous behavior, especially that of a man toward women.

You can see that they are close enough to be used interchangeably, but I do not like the word chivalry for the purpose that I stated above: it implies a archaic quality that is no longer applicable.

So answer this, how does opening a door (I decided to distill this down) show respect for femininity, and why?

It shoes a deference to women that they deserve, due to their femininity. Just so I do not get accused of dishonesty for now using a new word. Deference: humble submission and respect.

 

[MarthaSo]

For every one of those guys, there are others that don’t have those expectations.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

Dressed up in nice language but that essentially implies that a womans value is her womb. I think women want to be seen as more than wombs.

That is a good point. I realize the intent is to honor women as “lifegivers” or something like that, but I can tell you that hearing these types of sentiments is painful to women suffering from infertility, and no doubt to many childless single women as well.