women priests

[TheDoctor]

Doctrine (as in teachings of the Church) does include dogmas and disciplines. Dogmas will never change; however disciplines can.

I do not believe that is quite right. dogma, doctrine and discipline are three distinct concepts:
Dogma’s are truth’s that have been affirmed by the Councils of the Church and the Holy See in Rome. It is the further explanation, development or definition of concepts found within the deposit (of faith). Once dogma is declared, it can be further developed but never contradicted by future doctrine or dogma.

Doctrines are the development of truth on the basis of the deposit and dogma. Doctrine can develop and even contradict itself over time because it is largely the thoughts of people. It has not been officially declared true or false by the Church.

Disciplines are those rules that govern the everyday life of faithful Catholics.
So, discipline (i.e. married priests) and doctrine (i.e. limbo) can be changed. I believe though, that the current thought is that John Paul’s Ordinatio Sacerdotalis confirms that this is dogma, not doctrine (i.e. end of discussion, case closed).

 

[Miles_Mariae]

Please note that I preface this response in no way disagreeing with your post with regard to the specific question of women priests.

The very act of inquiry is considered disobedience? It is my understanding that this is untrue. Asking for or seeking more information or clarification so one can gain a deeper understanding of a subject can not be considered a disobedient act. Further, it is important for one to differentiate between “dissent” and “withholding assent.” It is perfectly reasonable for one to withhold assent to a particular teaching while trying to bring one’s self to a deeper understanding of the teaching. It is entirely another to actively dissent from a teaching (this would be considered disobedience).

As I understand it, religious assent is owed to doctrines even if they are not de fide, much more so if they are.

Inquiry is okay, as far as asking whether something is a dogma and why. When a Catholic learns that something is indeed de fide, then it is no longer permissible to withhold assent.

Someone correct me if this is not so.

 

[THurifer2]

Women can’t become priests. I think that is a outdated rule and it should be changed. With all of the equal rights, women rights etc; you would think by now a women would be able to become a priest. It is only a matter of time till it is changed.

-Scott

Its obvious that you have little understanding of the sacramental priesthood. To equate the church with the modern secular world shows that some people don’t have a grasp of the divine institution.

It is impossible for a woman to become a priest the same way it is impossible for a man to bear a child. For understanding of this statement I suggest you read theology of the body…it covers the role of the male and the priesthood.

To say the church is wrong about ordaining women is to claim to be more Catholic than the pope.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Speaking as a woman,I sincerely hope Never to see women priests in my time.

But then again,I believe that…

Boy Scouts are for BOYS only

Girl Scouts are for GIRLS only

so on and so on.

Jesus had many faithful women at His side through-out His ministry, He loved women and respected them enough to allow a Woman to be the first to see His risen glory, but He never appointed them to be Shepard’s of His flock. Why?, only He knows the answer to that, but it is enough that we follow His example.

Well there are female Boy Scouts. But Female priests is more like an Apple wanting to become a Banana, it’s just not possible.

 

[Cristiano]

Untrue. Doctrine does NOT include disciplines. Neither Doctrine nor Dogma can change. Disciplines can.

I do not believe that is quite right. dogma, doctrine and discipline are three distinct concepts:
Dogma’s are truth’s that have been affirmed by the Councils of the Church and the Holy See in Rome. It is the further explanation, development or definition of concepts found within the deposit (of faith). Once dogma is declared, it can be further developed but never contradicted by future doctrine or dogma.

Doctrines are the development of truth on the basis of the deposit and dogma. Doctrine can develop and even contradict itself over time because it is largely the thoughts of people. It has not been officially declared true or false by the Church.

Disciplines are those rules that govern the everyday life of faithful Catholics.
So, discipline (i.e. married priests) and doctrine (i.e. limbo) can be changed. I believe though, that the current thought is that John Paul’s Ordinatio Sacerdotalis confirms that this is dogma, not doctrine (i.e. end of discussion, case closed).

People I do not see where you found your definition of doctrine. Its etymology comes from the Latin 'docere" to teach. The term Doctrine is synonymous with CATECHESIS and CATECHISM. The teachings of the Church (Cathechism) cover both dogmas and disciplines.

Is CCC 2425 “Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended” either a dogma or discipline? NO

Is CCC 1686 “The Order of Christian Funerals (Ordo exsequiarum) of the Roman liturgy gives three types of funeral celebrations, corresponding to the three places in which they are conducted (the home, the church, and the cemetery), and according to the importance attached to them by the family, local customs, the culture, and popular piety. This order of celebration is common to all the liturgical traditions and comprises four principal elements” a discipline? YES

Is CCC 199 “I believe in God”: this first affirmation of the Apostles’ Creed is also the most fundamental. the whole Creed speaks of God, and when it also speaks of man and of the world it does so in relation to God. the other articles of the Creed all depend on the first, just as the remaining Commandments make the first explicit. the other articles help us to know God better as he revealed himself progressively to men. “The faithful first profess their belief in God.”** a dogma? YES**

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

I dont understand why there are no women priests. Can women even become priets?

No, because women cannot become daddies, or abbas, or fathers.

 

[jkarp]

As I understand it, religious assent is owed to doctrines even if they are not de fide, much more so if they are.

Inquiry is okay, as far as asking whether something is a dogma and why. When a Catholic learns that something is indeed de fide, then it is no longer permissible to withhold assent.

Someone correct me if this is not so.

I think you are confusing withholding assent and dissenting. Withholding assent is not a disobedient act. For example, one can say, "I don’t necessarily agree with what the Church says on this particular subject but I will still try to live by it until I can come to a deeper understanding of the church’s teaching.

 

[Spiller]

Also, and this is merely my personal opinion, women by nature could not handle the loneliness that the priesthood entails. Women in general, need other people, a spouse or other women, to share their emotional feelings and thoughts with. The priesthood does not provide this dimension.

Jim

It certainly does in many cases. There are many religious priests who belong to orders or societies and live in community.

 

[Ilroy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristiano
Doctrine (as in teachings of the Church) does include dogmas and disciplines. Dogmas will never change; however disciplines can.

I do not believe that is quite right. dogma, doctrine and discipline are three distinct concepts:
Dogma’s are truth’s that have been affirmed by the Councils of the Church and the Holy See in Rome. It is the further explanation, development or definition of concepts found within the deposit (of faith). Once dogma is declared, it can be further developed but never contradicted by future doctrine or dogma.

Doctrines are the development of truth on the basis of the deposit and dogma. Doctrine can develop and even contradict itself over time because it is largely the thoughts of people. It has not been officially declared true or false by the Church.

Disciplines are those rules that govern the everyday life of faithful Catholics.
So, discipline (i.e. married priests) and doctrine (i.e. limbo) can be changed. I believe though, that the current thought is that John Paul’s Ordinatio Sacerdotalis confirms that this is dogma, not doctrine (i.e. end of discussion, case closed).

You both have it wrong as did Spiller previously.

Discipline - the laws and directions laid down and formulated by church authority for the guidance of the faithful.
(Celebate Priesthood)

Doctrine - The deposit of faith, or the sum-total of truths supernaturally revealed to man. This CANNOT change although, it can develop into further understanding.
(Trinity)

Dogma - An already held Doctrine that has come under some dispute or misunderstanding that the Magisterium has defined specifically so as to have no confusion as to what the meaning is.
(Immaculate Conception)

Your example of limbo being doctrine is wrong. Limbo was and is nothing more than a theological theory which has never been held as a fact.

 

[love4mary]

Yes Brother Rich, I sadly know there are female Boy Scouts.

I just thank God that there will be no female priests, and that is coming from a woman.

 

[Spiller]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristiano
Doctrine (as in teachings of the Church) does include dogmas and disciplines. Dogmas will never change; however disciplines can.

You both have it wrong as did Spiller previously.

Discipline - the laws and directions laid down and formulated by church authority for the guidance of the faithful.
(Celebate Priesthood)

Doctrine - The deposit of faith, or the sum-total of truths supernaturally revealed to man. This CANNOT change although, it can develop into further understanding.
(Trinity)

Dogma - An already held Doctrine that has come under some dispute or misunderstanding that the Magisterium has defined specifically so as to have no confusion as to what the meaning is.
(Immaculate Conception)

Your example of limbo being doctrine is wrong. Limbo was and is nothing more than a theological theory which has never been held as a fact.

Actually it’s you that is wrong when it comes to doctrine and dogma. While dogmas can be more fully revealed to man, their meaning cannot be reversed

Dogmatic elements of the deposit of faith need not be defined if they are clearly evident. That’s precisely the case with Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. There was no new dogmas defined, but the document made it clear that the male-only priesthood is a part of the deposit of faith that has always existed in the Church. The clearest most concrete dogma I can think of the the Holy Trinity – it’s not merely a doctrine.

Doctrines (whose principal role is to support dogmas) can and do change to an extent greater than simply being more fully revealed.

As far as limbo goes, it was never anything more than a theological construct.

 

[Andruschak]

I dont understand why there are no women priests. Can women even become priets?

Maybe not in the Roman Catholic Church, but there are other, smaller, splinter Catholic Churches that do. Plus the Episopalians

 

[maryj]

Here’s a great article about the priesthood and women at the altar.lumengentleman.com/content.asp?id=147

 

[THurifer2]

Maybe not in the Roman Catholic Church, but there are other, smaller, splinter Catholic Churches that do. Plus the Episopalians

I think the Original Poster was talking about REAL priests.

 

[Layp3rs0n]

I’ve heard it said (and I agree): Women cannot become priests anymore than a man can give birth.

 

[Andruschak]

I think the Original Poster was talking about REAL priests.

Oh, of course:tiphat:

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It certainly does in many cases. There are many religious priests who belong to orders or societies and live in community.

Those are the exceptions, not the rule, as far as diocesan parishes go. Most parishes are served by diocesan priest, who live in a rectory. Even religious orders who serve parishes, will often house their priest in the rectory and many are alone.

Either way, the priesthood has a loneliness aspect that is not conducive for women.

Also consider having male priests, living in the rectory with a female priests.

I don’t think we want to go down that road.

Jim

 

[Spiller]

Those are the exceptions, not the rule, as far as diocesan parishes go. Most parishes are served by diocesan priest, who live in a rectory. Even religious orders who serve parishes, will often house their priest in the rectory and many are alone…

Now you are softening your original posting. Let’s look at it:

Also, and this is merely my personal opinion, women by nature could not handle the loneliness that the priesthood entails. Women in general, need other people, a spouse or other women, to share their emotional feelings and thoughts with. The priesthood does not provide this dimension.

The priesthood MOST CERTAINLY does provide this dimension albeit not in the majority of situations.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Now you are softening your original posting. Let’s look at it:

The priesthood MOST CERTAINLY does provide this dimension albeit not in the majority of situations.

No, I’m not softening my position.

The priesthood doesn’t provide the emotional provisions women require, even in a monastery. There could be exceptions, but in general, the priesthood entails a lonely existence. Its also a thankless job.

But the bottom line to it all is, it isn’t up to you or me, but to God.

If God wants women to be ordained, they will be. However, I have never heard people calling for prayers on the issue, and I doubt that those who are calling for the ordination of women, would accept God’s will unless it went their way.

So I’m doubtful to it will ever happen.

Jim

 

[rpp]

Actually it’s you that is wrong when it comes to doctrine and dogma. While dogmas can be more fully revealed to man, their meaning cannot be reversed

Dogmatic elements of the deposit of faith need not be defined if they are clearly evident. That’s precisely the case with Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. There was no new dogmas defined, but the document made it clear that the male-only priesthood is a part of the deposit of faith that has always existed in the Church. The clearest most concrete dogma I can think of the the Holy Trinity – it’s not merely a doctrine.

** Doctrines (whose principal role is to support dogmas) can and do change to an extent greater than simply being more fully revealed.
**
As far as limbo goes, it was never anything more than a theological construct.

Are you able to provide examples to support the assertions that doctrines of the Church have changed rather than simply more revealed? “No Salvation outside of the Church” is an example of what you call a doctrine that has become more revealed over time, but it has not changed.

And to the others who are posing in the “doctrine/dogma/discipline” sub-topic, where are you getting your definitions from?

Perhaps we out to take this to a separate thread.