Women Priests

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Javl

Thank you for your courteous response.
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I confess to growing doubts about Catholicism, and returning to the Tridentine mass - in my view - would only make it worse. I have liked the liturgical changes since Vatican II. I especially liked the end of restrictions re attending other churches. How many Catholics had to miss important baptisms, confirmations, weddings and funerals years ago because of being told it was a sin to attend a Protestant church!

 My increasing problem with Catholicism is the issue of authority. By nature I am curious, interested in all manner of spiritual concerns, increasingly moving toward the view that we live in such a mammoth, magnificent, miraculous and mysterious world that for any church to claim a monopoly on essential truths is questionable in my mind. With maybe a million or a billion solar systems - hm! I am in awe and find much religion seemingly naive and pompous. 

No need to go deeper into this, especially on this thread. One of the many issues that trouble me is the role of women in the church. It seemed so outrageous for the Vatican to issue a statement recently in which predatory priests were condemned along with those who want the ordination of women. One group are criminals; the others are dissenters who are working to change the church. A major difference!
 
Roy5 said:
Javl

Thank you for your courteous response.
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I confess to growing doubts about Catholicism, and returning to the Tridentine mass - in my view - would only make it worse. I have liked the liturgical changes since Vatican II. I especially liked the end of restrictions re attending other churches. How many Catholics had to miss important baptisms, confirmations, weddings and funerals years ago because of being told it was a sin to attend a Protestant church!
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That was mostly to prevent “Cafateria”, or nominal Catholics from moving to Protestantism or going to the cults. It really was no sin.
My increasing problem with Catholicism is the issue of authority. By nature I am curious, interested in all manner of spiritual concerns, increasingly moving toward the view that we live in such a mammoth, magnificent, miraculous and mysterious world that for any church to claim a monopoly on essential truths is questionable in my mind. With maybe a million or a billion solar systems - hm! I am in awe and find much religion seemingly naive and pompous.
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There must be some central authority otherwise everyone would go every which way. The 30,000+ number of Protestant denominations vivdly demonstrates this. Jesus prayed for unity, and believe it or not, the Church’s authority ( given it by Jesus ) does result in unity ( one billion Catholics total in both the Eastern and Western Churches ). The Church does not repress curiosity, and it fact welcomes it so that the investigator can see where the truth lies.
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No need to go deeper into this, especially on this thread. One of the many issues that trouble me is the role of women in the church. It seemed so outrageous for the Vatican to issue a statement recently in which predatory priests were condemned along with those who want the ordination of women. One group are criminals; the others are dissenters who are working to change the church. A major difference!
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Other than the matter of Holy Orders ( priesthood ), nothing is withheld or denied women in the Church. And yes, the disobedience of the women is tantamount to a mortal sin and is placed in the same category as predatory priests, Satanism within the Church, the Black Mass, and so on. They have violated Eclesiastical law and Canon Law. The reason why a woman cannot receive Holy Orders was given by Jesus and the Apostles. Therefore, unless God says otherwise, the matter remains settled.

God Bless.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom haMeshiach
 
These women think the Catholic Church is a democracy but its not, it is the TRUTH!!! These women need to humble themselves and follow the Catholic church. But please some of these women say they are catholics. They are not Catholics, they took themselves out by participating in this sort of thing. Whats next a lesbian Bishop? …Oh wait there already is
 
I do not find sola scriptura Protestantism attractive. But in all honesty I have become better acquainted with ‘mainline Protestantism’ - Episcopal, Methodist, Presbyterian - and am aware that they have no dogmatic authority.
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 For example, I find that one Episcopalian may believe in the Virgin Birth and another may not, one Methodist believes that God drowned eveyone except for Noah and his family while another thinks it's a myth/legend, etc. Frankly, I find that latitude attractive. I like the freedom to explore different theologies and choose what I can believe and what I can't. 

 The notion that we must believe everything literally in the creeds and all the distinctive Catholic beliefs - for example, the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary, neither in scriptures - troubles me. Why can't we have some freedom of belief on such issues or maybe confess that we simply  don't know for sure. I have no problem leaving large areas in the category of 'not sure, but that's okay!" We don't need to know all such things to have a deep faith. It's this "have to believe each and every dogma that bothers me.
 
Roy5 said:
I do not find sola scriptura Protestantism attractive. But in all honesty I have become better acquainted with ‘mainline Protestantism’ - Episcopal, Methodist, Presbyterian - and am aware that they have no dogmatic authority.
Code: 
 For example, I find that one Episcopalian may believe in the Virgin Birth and another may not, one Methodist believes that God drowned eveyone except for Noah and his family while another thinks it's a myth/legend, etc. Frankly, I find that latitude attractive. I like the freedom to explore different theologies and choose what I can believe and what I can't. 

 The notion that we must believe everything literally in the creeds and all the distinctive Catholic beliefs - for example, the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary, neither in scriptures - troubles me. Why can't we have some freedom of belief on such issues or maybe confess that we simply  don't know for sure. I have no problem leaving large areas in the category of 'not sure, but that's okay!" We don't need to know all such things to have a deep faith. It's this "have to believe each and every dogma that bothers me.
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Dear Brother in christ,

You are seeking what is pleasing to you and not the TRUTH. This is not a philosophy class, you join the church to be guided to the TRUTH. Jesus left a church to guide us. Without a church would lead to just pure heresy.
 
There is no such thing as a woman priest. There are sad, deluded women who think that they are priests. There is a difference. No Pope, Cardinal, or Bishop could ever change that. (Even if they wanted to!) Jesus didn’t ordain women, and neither will we. And Jesus was a social radical! People don’t seem to get that! He broke so many social taboos of His time, and would have had no problem ordaining women…but He didn’t!!! Clearly He didn’t want female apostles!!!

I wish these feminists would stop putting themselves above Christ. 😦
 
I guess a good Catholic has to believe that the church is infallible. Hm! I wonder. I have read considerable history of Christianity, including the Church Fathers, even heretics like Origen and *Sic et Non *by Abelard, etc. It strikes me that there was a wide range of beliefs among the earliest Christians, and one group won out at the ecclesiastical councils. But I find a certain attractiveness in Nestorianism, for example, even monophysitism or adoptianism, etc. I think what I have trouble with is believing so many defined and refined positions when I may be too curious to turn over my mind to any church.
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 Take just one of many areas of doubt. St. Paul wrote many letters to the early Christians but never once refers to Mary. So, should Mary receive the veneration and adulation that she receives? Blessed among women - fine. But I wonder if the church has gone overboard with relics of her wardrobe, for example. And all sorts of stories concerning St. Anne and St Joachim, though neither are mentoned in the Bible.

  I'm not afraid of heresy because God certainly must respect those who worship him faithfully but also are honest seekers after truth. I'm sure heaven is full of millions of non-Catholics, including Christian heretics who believed honestly in a somewhat different interpretation of scripture. 

 When I read that God commanded Saul to annihilate every last Amalekite - another example - I don't have trouble believing that Saul tried to do that. But did God order him to do that, in light of the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, and our belief that God is love, merciful, and just?  Hard to believe. And I crave the freedom to have a choice whether or not to take it literally.

  God bless all of his children..
 
Roy5 said:
I guess a good Catholic has to believe that the church is infallible. Hm! I wonder. I have read considerable history of Christianity, including the Church Fathers, even heretics like Origen and *Sic et Non *by Abelard, etc. It strikes me that there was a wide range of beliefs among the earliest Christians, and one group won out at the ecclesiastical councils. But I find a certain attractiveness in Nestorianism, for example, even monophysitism or adoptianism, etc. I think what I have trouble with is believing so many defined and refined positions when I may be too curious to turn over my mind to any church.
Code: 
 Take just one of many areas of doubt. St. Paul wrote many letters to the early Christians but never once refers to Mary. So, should Mary receive the veneration and adulation that she receives? Blessed among women - fine. But I wonder if the church has gone overboard with relics of her wardrobe, for example. And all sorts of stories concerning St. Anne and St Joachim, though neither are mentoned in the Bible.

  I'm not afraid of heresy because God certainly must respect those who worship him faithfully but also are honest seekers after truth. I'm sure heaven is full of millions of non-Catholics, including Christian heretics who believed honestly in a somewhat different interpretation of scripture. 

 When I read that God commanded Saul to annihilate every last Amalekite - another example - I don't have trouble believing that Saul tried to do that. But did God order him to do that, in light of the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, and our belief that God is love, merciful, and just?  Hard to believe. And I crave the freedom to have a choice whether or not to take it literally.

  God bless all of his children..
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yes, we all have the freedom to believe what we want. the problem is with this freedom, we also have the opportunity to make a wrong choice and believe in the wrong thing.

it seems to me that you’re more interested in the freedom of choice rather than the knowledge of truth. thats the problem most people have. they don’t want to be told what to believe but rather revel in the freedom they have to choose. but choosing the wrong path is easy, Jesus himself taught that
 
SuscipeMeDomine said:
And what makes you think your “attitude” makes any difference whatsoever to them?

I’ve always liked the prayer:
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Some people will do things I approve of, others will do things I don’t approve of, and I can’t control them either way.
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Evangelization is not the same as control. The Serenity Prayer means you accept “for yourself”, rather than tying yourself in knots trying to control a situation, that you may not be able to bring about visible change, but change may happen if one does not continue to “tolerate” that which is obviously wrong. No, we cannot control anything but ourselves, but the belief in objectivism can cause much miseducation. Having said all that, the Serenity Prayer, has saved me from countless sleepless nights.🙂
 
Those interested in the ‘Serenity Prayer’ may be interested in the book by the daughter of Reinhold Niebuhr, who generally is credited with writing that prayer. I believe the book is named “The Serenity Prayer” though my memory of a bit clouded. It came out 4-5 years ago. Niebuhr, of course, was a prominent Protestant theologian, first a pastor, then a professor and widely-read author at Union Theological Seminary across from Columbia (with some ties to Columbia) in Manhattan.
Mrs. Niebuhr taught at Barnard College. Reinhold's brother, Richard, was a prominent professor at Yale Divinity School. It also seems to me that they had a sister in the field of theology, but her name slips my mind. Interesting and brilliant family.
 
rben20 said:
In light of the punishable actions that can be taken for those in the Church that decide to ordain women, I found this website.

romancatholicwomenpriests.org/index.php

Not sure if you all are familiar with it, but wow, what rot and filth. I don’t understand why people who don’t agree with the Church do their own thing, but still use the Catholic name when clearly there isn’t anything Catholic about them. Last time people disagreed with the Church the reformation happened. Now it seems they are staying in the Church and instead distorting the One True Faith. :mad:

I wrote to one of the contacts telling them to not use the Catholic name and gave them some attitude about it. I’d recommend you all also give them a piece of your mind as well.
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That is one really nice thing about being with TLM supporters. I have not met one yet who supports women’s ordination. I have, however, met many NO attendees who do support it.
I love the TLM, and I enjoy keeping company with TLM supporters.
 
Javl said:
Priestly celibacy in the western Church is a discipline and it also is voluntary. If a priest wants to marry then he should consider the priesthood in one of the Eastern Catholic Churches.
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Not a valid option. Transfer of rite solely to pursue ordination is in fact forbidden.
 
Gregorianman said:
That is one really nice thing about being with TLM supporters. I have not met one yet who supports women’s ordination. I have, however, met many NO attendees who do support it.
I love the TLM, and I enjoy keeping company with TLM supporters.
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I have never once met an NO attendee that has supported it. I am a NO attendee myself, and I clearly don’t support it…maybe you just have the misfortune to only have “liberal” parishes in your area?
 
Roy5 said:
I guess a good Catholic has to believe that the church is infallible. Hm! I wonder. I have read considerable history of Christianity, including the Church Fathers, even heretics like Origen and *Sic et Non *by Abelard, etc. It strikes me that there was a wide range of beliefs among the earliest Christians, and one group won out at the ecclesiastical councils. But I find a certain attractiveness in Nestorianism, for example, even monophysitism or adoptianism, etc. I think what I have trouble with is believing so many defined and refined positions when I may be too curious to turn over my mind to any church.
Click to expand...
The Catholic Church has to be, and must be, infallible. Christ is the head of the Church and the Church is His body. Christ IS the Church. If Christ is not infallible then we all worship in vain and will never have the truth, no matter what.
Take just one of many areas of doubt. St. Paul wrote many letters to the early Christians but never once refers to Mary. So, should Mary receive the veneration and adulation that she receives? Blessed among women - fine. But I wonder if the church has gone overboard with relics of her wardrobe, for example. And all sorts of stories concerning St. Anne and St Joachim, though neither are mentoned in the Bible.
Click to expand...
Paul had no need to write about Mary. Everyone knew who she was. We know all about her and her parents through the Apostles and tradition. Not everything has been written in the Bible.
I’m not afraid of heresy because God certainly must respect those who worship him faithfully but also are honest seekers after truth. I’m sure heaven is full of millions of non-Catholics, including Christian heretics who believed honestly in a somewhat different interpretation of scripture.
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You should be afraid of all heresy. Heresy is the denial, wilfull distortion, misrepresentation, etc. of the truth as given by Christ and the Apostles. Remember that God is no respecter of men so how can He respect anyone who wilfully distorts or mis represents His truth(s). As an example; Arianism and/or Gnosis.
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 When I read that God commanded Saul to annihilate every last Amalekite - another example - I don't have trouble believing that Saul tried to do that. But did God order him to do that, in light of the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, and our belief that God is love, merciful, and just?  Hard to believe. And I crave the freedom to have a choice whether or not to take it literally.
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  God bless all of his children..
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Who are we to question the motives and actions of God? Again, remember that the scriptures are the word of God. Therefore, what ever appears in them is truth. If you refuse to believe them, then that is your perogative, but you, and you alone, will have to answer for yourself.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
Lutheranteach said:
Maybe someday…hopefully
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You would not hope for this if you truly understood that the Church has no authority to ordain women.

For in ‘hoping’ for this to occur, you either think the Church deluded and thus having no authority to pronounce on this or any topic. . .

or you think the Church is just like any other Christian denomination and has bits and pieces right, and bits and pieces wrong, and can ‘change’ what it wishes.

Both of those are incorrect.

If the Church is what She claims She is, the one holy Catholic and apostolic Church, then if She says She has no authority to ordain women, then She has no authority to ordain women.

So the only way she would ever get the authority would be if Christ Himself demanded it.

And that would involve Christ changing His mind.

And that’s not going to happen as God is eternal and His truth is eternal. It isn’t something that is true for one year, decade, century, millennium etc. and then something completely different afterward!

As a Lutheran I understand that you do not accept the Catholic Church as being who She says She is, because if you did accept this, you’d become Catholic.

Even so, we’d appreciate just a little more ‘understanding.’

Just as you find it awkward and indeed hurtful and unkind to read posts from people who say that “Protestants don’t believe in the Real Presence” when as a Lutheran YOU most certainly DO believe. . .

We as Catholics find it awkward and hurtful and unkind to read posts from people who act as though the whole question of ‘women priests’ was something that the Church had full ‘power’ over, and could change tomorrow if it approved but it was too busy putting down women and being all closed and hateful.

IOW. . .I personally (and I think you know this from my posts) make it very clear when I am speaking of particular Protestant teachings etc. that they don’t necessarily belong to all Protestants. I try to keep things straight.

As a Protestant, you could say that AS a Protestant YOU would feel happier seeing women priests because in your understanding they’re perfectly acceptable, BUT that Catholic teaching shows the Church has no authority to ordain women, so the only way this would happen is if somehow Christ gave the Church the authority to do so, in which case YOU would be happy.

But saying "maybe, hopefully’ makes it clear that you either don’t KNOW the Church has no authority to ordain women or you personally think that we’re deluded or lying. Either way you’re wrong, and in the first case I’d be surprised that you DIDN’T know the teaching as for pete’s sake, it’s in my own signature line and we’ve certainly talked before! So if you KNOW the teaching yet you’re still all, "well, maybe it will change’. . .well, that attitude is condescending at best and outright derogatory at worst, IMO.

It really is (though I think you didnt’ mean it to be) outright offensive.

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink. . .Yeah I know they say they can’t ordain women but hopefully ONE day they’ll get SMART and do what all we SMART people have already done because we know that they COULD if they WANTED TO. . .

Well we can’t and we won’t. . .we don’t have the authority to. I know it may be a hard concept to hear but it isn’t that hard to understand, I believe. . .
 
To my brothers and sisters in Christ,

Avoid opinions. Would you trade the truth for an opinion? Do not follow the world in their vain imaginings. Be obedient to the Teaching Authority of the Church.

God bless,
Ed
 
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