"Works" Salvation? Part 2

[ALLFORHIM]

How so?

If Sandusky is right, then we have no free will; God is saving us whether we want to or not. We become mere automatons.

Why would you think ?? Christ set us free from the bondage of sin and gave us eternal life if we choose to believe. See we think we have free will because that is what we know it to be here on earth. Who knows what that really means in the spiritual realm. Your getting into predestination which is a big controversial theology.

After we are saved we do have free will to listen to the HS or grieve the HS. Sometimes I choose the wrong thing to do even though I know I am not pleasing God and I do suffer consequences from my sin and possible discipline from God but I still get to go to heaven because of my faith in Christ.

I realize it doesnt make sense to us humans that we cant do a thing for God to earn our salvation or help in any way. We just need to remember that God is so far above us and we cant see the whole picture like He does. God commands faith to be saved(heaven bound)whether you want to see it or not it is all over the OT and NT.

 

[Truthstalker]

This is one place to continue the discussion:

Predestination and free will:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2075264#post2075264

 

[RNRobert]

Why would you think ?? Christ set us free from the bondage of sin and gave us eternal life if we choose to believe. See we think we have free will because that is what we know it to be here on earth. Who knows what that really means in the spiritual realm. Your getting into predestination which is a big controversial theology.

After we are saved we do have free will to listen to the HS or grieve the HS. Sometimes I choose the wrong thing to do even though I know I am not pleasing God and I do suffer consequences from my sin and possible discipline from God but I still get to go to heaven because of my faith in Christ.

I realize it doesnt make sense to us humans that we cant do a thing for God to earn our salvation or help in any way. We just need to remember that God is so far above us and we cant see the whole picture like He does. God commands faith to be saved(heaven bound)whether you want to see it or not it is all over the OT and NT.

I didn’t intend to get into predestination theology, but sandusky implied it in his post.

I agree that salvation is a gift from God, not something we can earn on our own (it is what the Catholic Church teaches, despite what some claim to the contrary :banghead: ). But the problem with the view held by many non-Catholics (and in all fairness, to some Catholics as well) is that faith in Christ is mere “fire insurance.” I’ve heard many Protestant ministers bemoaning this attitude, and heard one on the radio saying that being a Christian was “more than putting a fish symbol on your car.” We have to choose to follow him every day, to love God and our neighbor and do right by both. Will we stumble and fall at times? Yes, but we must always get back up, dust ourselves off and keep trying. Some of our works may be gold, silver and precious stones, and some may be wood and stubble (1 Cor 3:12). We should never put our faith on autopilot.

 

[RNRobert]

With regard to ‘works’ salvation, a few days ago I started a thread explaining why I had come to abandon Sola Fide:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=141420

 

[sandusky]

RNRobert:

How so?

If Sandusky is right, then we have no free will; God is saving us whether we want to or not. We become mere automatons.

That is because you are trying logically understand a biblical truth. Logic falls short of biblical truth. Christ interfered with Paul’s will when He met Paul on the Damascus road; didn’t he? Paul was intent on remaining a Jew, and persecuting the church; Jesus had other ideas for Paul.

geezerbob:

This statement is in direct opposition to what Jesus said in the last verses of Matthew, Chapter 25. Are you above Him? I’ll say it yet again. Read first the words of Christ and keep His teachings in mind when you read the rest of the Bible, especially Paul. Maybe you’ll come to the proper understanding of salvation.

My understanding of salvation is biblical, and therefore, correct. Read Mt 25 completely, paying special attention to the sheep and goats in v33 (cf Jn 10 with respect to His Sheep). Mt 25 is all about sheep and goats.

There is a constant Catholic complaint that non-Catholics pay little attention to Christ’s words in favor of Paul’s.

AgainJohn 5:24

24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.What is your complaint against His words there?

 

[geezerbob]

Yes, Matthew 25 is all about the sheep and the goats, and on the day of judgment, I much prefer to be counted among the sheep.

I also think that my idea of salvation is biblical and correct. Regardless, I believe, so that base is covered. I’m also trying, however insufficiently, to cover the “works” base as commanded by Christ. If the Catholic church is right and you are wrong, where will that leave you on the final day?

 

[RNRobert]

My understanding of salvation is biblical, and therefore, correct. Read Mt 25 completely, paying special attention to the sheep and goats in v33 (cf Jn 10 with respect to His Sheep). Mt 25 is all about sheep and goats.

Yes, and salvation or condemnation was based on what **they did. **What makes you so sure your understanding is any more Biblical or correct than the Catholic understanding?

sandusky:

There is a constant Catholic complaint that non-Catholics pay little attention to Christ’s words in favor of Paul’s.

AgainJohn 5:24

24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.What is your complaint against His words there?

Read a few verses down:

28 Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnationApparently, we’ll be judged on what we DO as much as what we SAY.

 

[Michael_Francis]

In order to allow the discussion to continue on track, I have copied the last page or so of posts into this new thread.

May the Holy Spirit enlighten all our discussions.
MF

 

[Milliardo]

The Christian who abides in Christ, does not come into judgmentJohn 5:24

24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Ah yes, the proof-text of those who claim that believers will not be judged. However, other translations render this as “will not come into condemnation”; thus, we see here that it is untrue then that believers will not be judged, or else Jesus will contradict Himself with what He said regarding Judgment. The point of Jesus here, as we can see, is that those who believe and follow Him will not be condemned. You can see then that this actually comes into harmony with the Judgment passages, rather than contradict it.

The judgment of works for the one who abides in Christ determines his reward, or lack thereof. He is not condemned on the basis of works.

I’m sorry–as I’ve pointed above, there is no passage that supports your notion. Even John 5:24 actually supports the fact that believers will be judged.

Edit–it is noteworthy as well to see verse 29, as pointed out by another post here. It is clear then that Judgment is for all, not just for unbelievers. So, it’s a no go sandusky–there’s no support for your notion, other than wishful thinking.

 

[Truthstalker]

Mmmmmm. Millardo, not so fast.

Catechism:

679 Christ is Lord of eternal life. Full right to pass definitive judgement on the works and hearts of men belongs to him as redeemer of the world. He “acquired” this right by his cross. The Father has given “all judgement to the Son”. 586 Yet the Son did not come to judge, but to save and to give the life he has in himself. 587 By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one’s works, and can even
condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love. 588

and

John 3:18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

In John 5:24 the word translated judgement is krisis, which can mean condemnation or judgement. Since Scripture interprets Scripture, plainer passage explaining more obscure, John 3:18 explains John 5:24. John 5:24 then cannot be used as an out to say the believer is not judged. Rather, he is pre-judged. But it is noteworthy that in verse 29 the Greek differs between the good and the bad: the good is doing good, the evil is practicing foul deeds. I don’t have time right now to go into this more fully.

It is also noteworthy that in 5:24 the participles are present tense: the one hearing and believing, not the one having heard and believed. The passage lends itself to a Catholic interpretation rather than to a Protestant one.

 

[Truthstalker]

Originally Posted by Linkowski forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*

The Bible is very clear - you are thinking too far ahead to what James talks about in chapter 2 - read Romans first because those are the first priorties of business.

And who sets the priorities of business, and on what grounds? If you argue sequence in the NT, that would imply inspiration of order. If Paul trumps James, why? And if so, why doesn’t Jesus similarly trump Paul?

 

[Pax]

If the ordering of the books of the NT has significance in terms of sola fide then the book of James is clearly positioned for the express purpose of clarifying misunderstandings of Paul’s teachings. Likewise Peter’s letters do the same thing and Peter quite pointedly states that many things in Paul’s letters are difficult and hard to understand and that there are those that twist them and the other scriptures to their own destruction. Go figure!

 

[onenow1]

Hi,
If someone all there lives did not believe in Jesus; what happens when a person dies, how is he judged, there must be some criteria, like good deeds and bad deeds, or generally keeping the ten commandments. Summed up as love thy neighbor.

Genesis. 4: 6-7, The Lord said to Cain “Why are you angry, and why has your countenance fallen ? If you do well will you not be accepted ? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, you must master it.”

Matt. 5: 17, Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the Prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.

Lest we forget, Jesus is the author of the old testament also!
Jesus made our burden lighter, he did’nt remove it completely.

My 2 cents worth.

Peace,OneNow1

 

[123rock]

Not so Craig…The New Testament teaches that without works faith is dead.

You can pick verses from all over the place to try support your position, but when the issue is studied in the full context of the New Testament…the Catholic belief surfaces as the one that is the real New Testament teaching…

Let go of your insecurity blanket Craig and embrace what is there…not what you wish was there.
Pax tecum,

Contrary to what you might want to interpret as a salvation based on faith and works, James 2 explains that a faith that is true produces works.

 

[123rock]

We are never justified when/ we go against the moral law. I have experienced this first hand in my personal life. When i go against some commandment (say i sin against charity), i always pay dearly, though i may not always see the consequences of my sin right away (or at all )… Sometimes i see consequences much further down the road… But in any case, Jesus, when asked how to get into Heaven, did not say anything about accepting him as “Lord and Savior” (though i’m sure he wants us to do that .
He said to obey the commandments…

This alludes to Matthew 7:21. However, if you are to examine what Jesus is trying to say in there, you’ll see that it is the same as James 2: hypocrits won’t be saved. It’s exactly what you would expect Him to say especially with His problems with the Pharisees.

 

[Linkowski]

I want to remind all that when a person is sinning wilfully and without any repentance at all, this is unbelief. And we know that all those that fell in the wilderness fell because of unbelief…why is this?

Hebrews 3:17-19 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

WHY DID THEY FALL??

Hebrews 4:1-2 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

At least, not the faith that God gives…it was vain…

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS95 1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

I always hear that people can lose their salvation because of sin…but the ultimate root of this wilful sin without repentance is unbelief. But we see that they did not lose their salvation…they did not have saving faith when they had the good news preached unto them. So, all of you that use this to show that you can lose your salvation, you cannot no longer.

Those that go to hell will do so because of sin/unbelief.

So we are told…

Hebrews 3:12 NAS95 12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

He is urging them to examine their hearts - that although they may be part of the group and fellowship, to be sure that they do not have an unbelieving heart.

2 Corinthians 13:5 NAS95 5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?

those that turn away completely and permanently do not have God…

2 John 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

1 John 2:19 NAS95 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

They were tares…

Matthew 13:24-30 NAS95 24 Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 "But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. 26 "But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. 27 "The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 "And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves *said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ 29 “But he *said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 ‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

“Tares” refers to a degenerate kind of wheat, or the darnel grass growing in Palestine. In its growth and form it has a strong resemblance to genuine wheat. But it either produces no grain, or that of a very inferior and hurtful kind. Probably it comes near to what we mean by chess. It was extremely difficult to separate it from the genuine wheat, on account of its similarity while growing. Thus it aptly represented hypocrites in the church. Strongly resembling Christians in their experience, and, in some respects, their lives, it is impossible to distinguish them from genuine Christians, nor can they be separated until it is done by the great Searcher of hearts at the day of judgment.: An enemy–the devil–hath done it. And nowhere has he shown profounder cunning, or done more to adulterate the purity of the gospel,

These are those that got caught up in the dragnet…

Matthew 13:47-50 NAS95 47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind; 48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away. 49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Linkowski]

I would also like to summarize a previous posting of mine into a shorter post to make a point more clear. In ROmans, we are told very explicitily thta we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law which includes the 10 commandments.

But, you are saying that we are justified by faith and keeping the 10 commandments - in doing so you are not realizing that “justified” in the context of the Romans passages is different than in James 2. That is why I believe that you are in error.

 

[Axion]

I would also like to summarize a previous posting of mine into a shorter post to make a point more clear. In ROmans, we are told very explicitily thta we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law which includes the 10 commandments.

But, you are saying that we are justified by faith and keeping the 10 commandments - in doing so you are not realizing that “justified” in the context of the Romans passages is different than in James 2. That is why I believe that you are in error.

What many protestants forget is that justification is not a lifetime “Get out of Hell Free” card.

One also has to follow Jesus and do as He says.

 

[Linkowski]

What many protestants forget is that justification is not a lifetime “Get out of Hell Free” card.

One also has to follow Jesus and do as He says.

You are not addressing the problem head on.

But, I will answer you here…you, like me, are frustrated by those who claim salvation through the “sacrament” of the sinner’s prayer - “I AM JUSTIFIED” they say, when they just made a hollow profession of faith…they live like the devil BUT they are saved!!! Not so…I have explained this two postings up.

BUT…those who are of the elect and are truly justified are saved and saved forever and cannot lose it. They become dead to the law and are released from the penalty of the law - the law, from a legal standpoint, has no jursidition over them anymore because they are “dead” to it. Now, they are released from the bondage of the law, that they might now live by it…the key word there is LIVE…

Those who have been born of God and have been justified are guaranteed salvation in the end…

Romans 8:30 NAS95 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

That’s the Golden Chain of Salvation…

They are also characterized in 1 John…

Practicing of righteousness…
1 John 2:29…29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

Therefore, whatsoever is born of God practices righteousness.

Loves the brethren…
1 John 3:14…14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

Hates sin and does not practice it…
1 John 3:9…9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Loves…
1 John 4:7…7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

Confesses…
1 John 4:15…15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

Believes on Christ…
1 John 5:1…1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.

Perseveres…
1 John 5:4…4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.

Keeps commandments…
1 John 2:3…3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

By the way, after John says all of the things he writes…

1 John 5:13…13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Not lustful…
Galatians 5:24 NAS95 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Walk in the Spirit…
Romans 8:4 NAS95 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8:9…9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Perform works…
John 14:12…12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

Those that cry out - I am justified - and show little evidence of it, as outlined above, are not justified but are tares/fakes.

 

[onenow1]

What many protestants forget is that justification is not a lifetime “Get out of Hell Free” card.

One also has to follow Jesus and do as He says.

Right on Axion. and Amen !
Philippians. 2: 12, Therefore my beloved as you have alwys obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.