"Works" Salvation? Part 2

[Church_Militant]

… 20 The young man *said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking

?"

It is God that justifies - he sought to justify himself…
…

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.You just refuted your own position Craig.
21 Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me. 22 And when the young man had heard this word, he went away sad: for he had great possessions. 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

It was an action… a work that Our Lord asked of him and which decided the issue.

 

[Odell]

That is exactly the problem…I was in a situation where I was being taught contrary to scripture. Plain, clear, scripture…and instead of twisting the scriptures to meet exactly what I wanted them to say, I left and went to a different church. Since then, I have almost gone back to the Catholic Church (where I grew up since birth) on 2 occasions…BUT…when I studied scripture out for what it said, I found the Catholic teaching to be incorrect.

when I study scripture I have found not one denomination to have the right interpritation. Except one the Catholic Church. See every protestant denomination claims to have the right interpritation contrary to one another.

So how do you know you have it right this time? Could you not have something wrong? Are you infallible in your interpritation of scripture?

must rely solely on the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. It is then and only then that we can truly live for God the way He intended.

Catholics do, I do. But you could rely on his death burial and resurection of Christ and not truly live the way God intended. That is why if you do not bear good fruit well you know.

Loves the brethren…
1 John 3:14…14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

therefore if you do something that is not out of love then what are you still saved?

Believes on Christ…
1 John 5:1…1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.

Even the demons believe

Keeps commandments…
1 John 2:3…3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

what happens if we dont keep the commandments? You said we dont have to even keep them. But the bibel says you know God if you do.

1 John 5:13…13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

What does this mean?

Philippians 1:6 NAS95 6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Im glad you understand it is God doing the good work us catholics like to do. No wonder we like doing them so much.

 

[Linkowski]

So you just blow off His words?

Don’t you believe He can give someone the power to live a perfectly sinless life? After all, He did it on earth. We are to follow His example and not just make excuses like we can’t cut it. We can’t cut it. But we are to use the means (grace) He has given us and

(Phil. 4)
Catholics seem to be focusing on verses 12 and 13; Protestants on verse 9, but stopping there. The Catholics are saying all the verses are valid. Paul did not consider that he had “made it” - if he didn’t, how could you? Are you better than Paul? Is your theology better than his? I don’t think you will make those claims.

I guess what you need to see here is the context…he is speaking from the standpoint of the resurrection…the time when those who have been justified will be glorified…

Romans 8:30 KJV 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

He tells us in Romans 7…

Romans 7:22-25 KJV 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! ***who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. ***So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

He has not become perfected in that sense yet…

Be careful.

 

[Linkowski]

when I study scripture I have found not one denomination to have the right interpritation. Except one the Catholic Church. See every protestant denomination claims to have the right interpritation contrary to one another.

So how do you know you have it right this time? Could you not have something wrong? Are you infallible in your interpritation of scripture?

Catholics do, I do. But you could rely on his death burial and resurection of Christ and not truly live the way God intended. That is why if you do not bear good fruit well you know.

therefore if you do something that is not out of love then what are you still saved?

Even the demons believe

what happens if we dont keep the commandments? You said we dont have to even keep them. But the bibel says you know God if you do.

What does this mean?

Im glad you understand it is God doing the good work us catholics like to do. No wonder we like doing them so much.

Read all my postings over the last couple of days - read them prayerfully and with a heart seeking truth. If you believe that you have already arrived…you will never see anything else. I would appreciate if you would do that. If you do, you will recant many things that you have said in this post.

 

[Linkowski]

You just refuted your own position Craig.
21 Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me. 22 And when the young man had heard this word, he went away sad: for he had great possessions. 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

It was an action… a work that Our Lord asked of him and which decided the issue.

You are in error…we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law…your interpretation contradicts his truth. The interpretation that I laid out for you is coherent with scripture.

 

[Odell]

Read all my postings over the last couple of days - read them prayerfully and with a heart seeking truth. If you believe that you have already arrived…you will never see anything else. I would appreciate if you would do that. If you do, you will recant many things that you have said in this post.

Dido

 

[Angainor]

You just refuted your own position Craig.
21 Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me. 22 And when the young man had heard this word, he went away sad: for he had great possessions. 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

It was an action… a work that Our Lord asked of him and which decided the issue.

Decided the issue? I’ll say! It decided the issue in the negative! Works always decide the issue in the negative.

This is what astonished the disciples. “Who then can be saved?”

 

[Church_Militant]

You are in error…we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law…your interpretation contradicts his truth. The interpretation that I laid out for you is coherent with scripture.

According to you Craig. But the passage is clear…you seem to have a problem accepting that what you want to believe is in fact contrary to the Word of God.

The interpretation that you have laid out is not coherent with anything but the biased interpretation of those who concocted it in their carnal understanding. The context of the New Testament is clear, and interpretations that attempt to ignore that context are in fact the unscriptural teachings of men.

Every time you reiterate your interpretation and attempt to defend it it just displays a more desperate attempt on your part. Why bother?

 

[Church_Militant]

Decided the issue? I’ll say! It decided the issue in the negative! Works always decide the issue in the negative.

This is what astonished the disciples. “Who then can be saved?”

:dts: Was it not an work that Our Lord asked him to undertake that he refused?

 

[Linkowski]

You just refuted your own position Craig.
21 Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me. 22 And when the young man had heard this word, he went away sad: for he had great possessions. 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

It was an action… a work that Our Lord asked of him and which decided the issue.

I would also like to remind you that repentance is turning from sin as our slavemaster to Christ as Lord…this insinuates a turning to follow Him…leaving all of our relationships behind and all of our possessions behind as well…

Luke 8:11-15 KJV 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

The good and honest heart must be the nature of the soil and is a gift granted by God…So…Jesus said - sell all that you have (possessions) and follow me (no matter what Aunt Mabel might say)…without repentance…a good and honest heart, the word will fall on the wrong soil and will not bear fruit with perseverance.

Repentance is granted by God and is a work in the heart…

Acts 11:18 KJV 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

2 Timothy 2:25 KJV 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

 

[Church_Militant]

I would also like to remind you that repentance is turning from sin as our slavemaster to Christ as Lord…this insinuates a turning to follow Him…leaving all of our relationships behind and all of our possessions behind as well…

Luke 8:11-15 KJV 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

The good and honest heart must be the nature of the soil and is a gift granted by God…So…Jesus said - sell all that you have (possessions) and follow me (no matter what Aunt Mabel might say)…without repentance…a good and honest heart, the word will fall on the wrong soil and will not bear fruit with perseverance.

Repentance is granted by God and is a work in the heart…

Acts 11:18 KJV 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

2 Timothy 2:25 KJV 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Repentance would also be a work then… The action of turning away from past sins and to follow Christ.

 

[Angainor]

Don’t you believe He can give someone the power to live a perfectly sinless life?

I suppose, but what good would that do? God wants us to stand on our own.

We are sick. Giving someone “the power” (I don’t know what that means) to live a perfectly sinless life despite the underlying sickness is only treating the symptoms of the sickness. Jesus offers to cure the underlying condition. He grants forgiveness for all of our sins. He promises total sanctification that comes at the resurrection.

St. Paul speaking:For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
Romans 7:14-25

 

[Truthstalker]

God wants us to stand on our own.

Where did you get that? Anathema to that idea!

We trust Christ for our salvation, for our entire salvation, for the power to follow Him, for the power to believe and obey, for the breath we inhale, and the power to exhale, to be able to reason, for the blood to flow through our veins, for justice and mercy at our death; we are completely and utterly dependent on Him for all things, without exception, and should be without hesitation or desire to stand on our own, to be autonomous, to cut ourselves off from God and be independent, because we cannot be.

Where God commands, He empowers. If He tells you to be perfect, He will give you the power to be perfect. Where is your faith? In His Words and His grace and power or in your interpretation? Explain to Him that He did not mean what He said. Go on, tell Him you believe Paul spoke plainly but Jesus, when speaking bluntly, was lying about the Gospel. That is what you are saying.

Linkowski told me to be careful. Why? I asked Jesus into my heart. According to him then I should be ok, even if I did everything in my power to destroy my soul, my salvation, and the work of God. My salvation is secure. Now I can go blow it. Now I can believe I can lose my salvation, because I can’t and this silly mistake won’t have any consequences. So why worry about it?

 

[Angainor]

:dts: Was it not an work that Our Lord asked him to undertake that he refused?

Yes, it was a work! And we see where that road leads. Death. The road of works always leads to death.

Jesus has been teaching the gospel* this whole time and the rich man stubbornly wanted to know “what good thing he must do to get eternal life”. Some people are just stubborn. So Jesus told him what he must do, in no uncertain terms: “If you want to be perfect, go…”

This is the astonishing part. Who keeps the law perfectly? “Who then can be saved?”

*the righteous shall live by his faith. Habakkuk 2:4b

 

[Truthstalker]

Jesus has been teaching the gospel*

Show me where He quoted “the righteous shall live by faith” in any of the Gospels. IF He had been teaching it “this whole time” then He surely must have quoted it? Or perhaps you are viewing things through a filter that will not allow you to see what He was really saying?

 

[Angainor]

Angainor:

		 				 God wants us to stand on our own.

Where did you get that? Anathema!

So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Galatians 3:24-25

For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
Galatians 5:1

God does not want puppets, only able to behave through his power. God will regenerate our sinful natures to cure the underlying condition of our sinfulness. Then we can be free to live as God intended, when we are resurrected on the New Earth.

 

[Truthstalker]

God will regenerate our sinful natures to cure the underlying condition of our sinfulness

Sort of a postponed baptismal regeneration?

 

[Truthstalker]

God does not want puppets, only able to behave through his power

And the diffference between this and free will is…

 

[Angainor]

Angainor:

		 				God does not want puppets, only able to behave through his power

And the diffference between this and free will is…

I meant “behave” as in a mother telling a child to “behave”.

 

[Angainor]

Sort of a postponed baptismal regeneration?

Our selves are regenerated through faith and baptism. Our sinful nature will be regenerated at the resurrection.

Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Romans 7:20