L
Linkowski
Guest
What you need to realize is that repentance is a gift which I clearly showed you from scripture…we has human beings cannot transform our hearts. It is God that works…see my last posting and read it more carefully.
- Status
L
lak611
Guest
So we are automatons or puppets who are forced to repent by God? :whacky: I don’t see that in the Bible.
A
Angainor
Guest
You have a point. Jesus did not spend much time explicitly saying that.
And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says…
Matthew 13:11-15
Jesus spent as much time illustrating the futility of the wrong way. The people did not need someone to simply tell them the gospel, prophets like Habakkuk* have been telling the people that in words, but they did not listen. The people needed something else.And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
John 3:14-15
*the righteous shall live by his faith. Habakkuk 2:4b
L
Linkowski
Guest
I will not take credit for my repentance - all glory to Him. You can have all the glory you wish to take. You can have your free autonomy and free will to do whatever you like as well…the truth is, we do not have the free will that you want to have.
John 1:12-13 KJV 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Romans 9:15-17 KJV 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
1 Peter 1:3 NAS95 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Jeremiah 32:40 NAS95 40 "I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.
Ezekiel 36:27 NAS95 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
Romans 9 is clear…God chooses according to His gracious choice…the rest He passes over.
Born not of the flesh and not of the will of man - but of God…How much free will did you have in being born???
Here is the description of one before salvation…
Ephesians 2:1-3 NAS95 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Colossians 2:13 NAS95 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
All are depraved prior to salvation…
Romans 3:9-12 NAS95 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
Romans 3:19 NAS95 19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
Therefore we must be justified by faith and faith alone - apart from the works of the law (including the 10 commandments).
M
Milliardo
Guest
M
Milliardo
Guest
Of course you cannot take credit of your repentance–it is the Spirit working in you that leads you to it. However, one must cooperate with that Spirit to go into repentance, and to continue onwards to obedience to Him. See, it is still free will which comes in. We are free to obey Him, or not. He gave us a mind to make decisions. We are not robots or chess pieces. We are humans, given with the capacity to judge and act according to our will.
Nothing there that says we don’t have free will; what is shown there though is that when we choose God, we freely make His will our own. Note, freely. We are free to make it our own, or not. It is not forced on us. We chose it.
Doesn’t say that those who choose God don’t have free will; it only shows us here that, man freely choosing his own path, is also free to choose God’s ways. Again, nothing there which would contradict free will.
Paul talks about here that His salvation is caused not by anything we’ve done, but because of His mercy and love. This is in line with other verses that speaks of His mercy and love. Nothing we do–not our faith, not our works–has caused God to save us, but it is out of sheer love for us that caused Him to do so.
I’m sorry–how did you come by this amazing conclusion again?
L
Linkowski
Guest
I think you will find that as we go into Romans 4, 5, 6, and 7 where Paul begins to speak of justification by faith, you will find he is speaking of the entire law including the moral law and the 10 commandments.
Romans 3:20 KJV 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
We know, through the commandments what sin, in fact is…Paul includes this statement in Romans 7…
Romans 7:7 KJV 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
You cannot say that we are justified by faith AND part of the law, namely the 10 commandments. We are justified by faith alone.
Secondly, to include the passage from James 2 is also a problem. This would draw a major contradiction to what Paul is saying. Paul says we are justified by faith - apart from even the 10 commandments which is basically love God, etc…and love your neighbor…since James is speaking of works of love which, we know, love whether it be of God or of fellow man hangs on the 10 commandments, James cannot be saying that we are justified by keeping the 10 commandments because Paul said that we are justified by faith apart from the law. It is easy to see from the context in James Chapter 2 and based on this problem, that the word “justified” in James 2 is something different from “justified” in Romans.
1344 δικαιόω [dikaioo /dik·ah·yo·o/] v. From 1342; TDNT 2:211; TDNTA 168; GK 1467; 40 occurrences; AV translates as “justify” 37 times, “be freed” once, “be righteous” once, and “justifier” once. 1 to render righteous or such he ought to be. 2 to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered. 3 to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be.
Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Test of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurence of Each Word in Regular Order. electronic ed. Ontario : Woodside Bible Fellowship., 1996, S. G1344
You can see that, in the book of Romans, and specifically speaking in the areas of Romans that we have been looking at, definition number 3 of dikaioo is what is in view - since we are speaking in Romans of justification versus condemnation…
Romans 8:33-34 KJV 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
However from the text of James 2, we see that the definition number 2 of justified is in view…
James 2:17-24 KJV 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: **shew me thy faith **without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
We are speaking here of what true living faith is and that he was SHOWN to be righteous. It certainly is not spekaing of justified in the court setting (Before God)…
Romans 4:2-3 KJV 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
But in James 2 he is speaking of justification as seen by men as the context reads. We are justified by faith alone as you can see.
Also, you may want to try to look into what you are trying to say “free will” is.
Romans 3:20 KJV 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
We know, through the commandments what sin, in fact is…Paul includes this statement in Romans 7…
Romans 7:7 KJV 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
You cannot say that we are justified by faith AND part of the law, namely the 10 commandments. We are justified by faith alone.
Secondly, to include the passage from James 2 is also a problem. This would draw a major contradiction to what Paul is saying. Paul says we are justified by faith - apart from even the 10 commandments which is basically love God, etc…and love your neighbor…since James is speaking of works of love which, we know, love whether it be of God or of fellow man hangs on the 10 commandments, James cannot be saying that we are justified by keeping the 10 commandments because Paul said that we are justified by faith apart from the law. It is easy to see from the context in James Chapter 2 and based on this problem, that the word “justified” in James 2 is something different from “justified” in Romans.
1344 δικαιόω [dikaioo /dik·ah·yo·o/] v. From 1342; TDNT 2:211; TDNTA 168; GK 1467; 40 occurrences; AV translates as “justify” 37 times, “be freed” once, “be righteous” once, and “justifier” once. 1 to render righteous or such he ought to be. 2 to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered. 3 to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be.
Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Test of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurence of Each Word in Regular Order. electronic ed. Ontario : Woodside Bible Fellowship., 1996, S. G1344
You can see that, in the book of Romans, and specifically speaking in the areas of Romans that we have been looking at, definition number 3 of dikaioo is what is in view - since we are speaking in Romans of justification versus condemnation…
Romans 8:33-34 KJV 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
However from the text of James 2, we see that the definition number 2 of justified is in view…
James 2:17-24 KJV 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: **shew me thy faith **without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
We are speaking here of what true living faith is and that he was SHOWN to be righteous. It certainly is not spekaing of justified in the court setting (Before God)…
Romans 4:2-3 KJV 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
But in James 2 he is speaking of justification as seen by men as the context reads. We are justified by faith alone as you can see.
Also, you may want to try to look into what you are trying to say “free will” is.
L
Linkowski
Guest
Will you dare say that Paul says we are justified by faith apart from works (including the 10 commandments) and James says we are justified by faith + keep the commandments. You bring about a contradition in this case.
G
guanophore
Guest
The westminster confession does not promote faith alone.
Furthermore, the problem with someone thinking that they will be saved by their good works (in addition to being contrary to the teaching of Christ) is that the only “works” that bring any merit to a person at the judgement are those done in faith. "…for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. Rom 14:23
A person trying to “be good” to avoid eternal punishment out of fear cannot be said to be acting by faith. Additionally, the most important work of God IS faith, and failure to put that first gets everything else out of kilter.(John 6:28).
It would behoove most Catholics to have a better understanding of justification by faith.
M
Milliardo
Guest
Must be a wrong reply; I never mentioned it anywhere nor do I care about non-Catholic confessions.
Nothing there that contradicts Catholic position; indeed, the Church has been saying all along that it is those works done in obedience to Christ which will have merit with Him in Judgment. So, far from being in disagreement, Catholic teaching is very much in agreement with Scripture.
No Catholic has a problem with this; the problem comes when anti-Catholics insist on salvation by faith alone. The Catholic believes that God saves us by His grace through our faith and works. The two go together–what we’ve done shows what faith we have, if we are in obedience to Christ or not. It’s not hard to grasp it really.
S
sandusky
Guest
The saints are exempt from that judgment (see vv4-6; cf Dan 7:9-14, 27; with which Rev 5:9-14; and 19:7 agree).
The saints works are judged by Christ prior to that judgment (2 Cor 5:10; Rev 3:5). The one’s whose names are not written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire (cf 13:8).
M
Milliardo
Guest
Please be reminded again that Paul would not contradict himself from Romans 2 and Romans 3. Also, be reminded that Paul plainly says, “Love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:10). This is in line with his thinking about love–that love is faith in action. Paul’s point in Romans 3-5 is faith against works of the law, not moral law or even the 10 Commandments, but those laws imposed by Jewish authorities as a burden to the people (the same point Jesus made against them, incidentally). Take the whole of Romans to heart, not just the precious Romans 3-5, as if the whole of it revolves around them (it does not, unfortunately). Paul is steeped in love–faith in action–and he contrasts this love with the law, which is legalistic action that is done to simply fulfill duties instead of a faith done in free will and obedience to Christ. Above all, he sees faith as that love which should move us. Paul echoes Christ, not contradicts Him then. We see this unity of Paul with Jesus. Protestants try to separate Paul from Christ, making his words seem antithetical to what Jesus spoke. That is an error, and Protestantism continues to wallow in that confusion, so much so that one begins to read Paul preaching another Gospel–a charge made by non-Christians, thanks in part to Protestant over-emphasis on Paul.
Exactly what I’m pointing out above–Paul shouldn’t contradict, but should be in harmony. Protestants read Paul, and then tries to wrap its understanding of Paul based on 3 chapters in Romans. You then see other passages as problematic. David Currie observed this and realized that sola fide proponents see Jesus’ words as problematic, and would either dismiss them as “not applying to present day Christians” (which is a poor cop-out) or else force interpretations that would only make the confusion even more hopeless. Catholic understanding of salvation makes a lot of sense, and unifies the New Testament so that it becomes one complete pattern, woven so that they mesh with one another, not contradict and fight each other.
L
Linkowski
Guest
It is plain to see that he is speaking of the moral law in Romans 3 and 4, etc…
Romans 3:19-20 KJV 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
In the context, he is speaking of being guilty due to the breaking of God’s law - and by that law comes the knowledge of sin…
Romans 7:7 NAS95 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
Romans 4:15 NAS95 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
Wrath against sin, which is transgression of God’s law - the 10 commandments. He is speaking of the whole law and not part of it.
Is he not speaking of trying to use the law as a means of salvation…we cannot do it…even Jesus said we would have to pluck out our eyes and cut off our limbs in order to keep the law (he was sleoking of the 10 commandments). In other words, we cannot keep the law by the flesh…He was saying that our flesh must die and we must be reborn…we must trust in the work of Christ…and when we are born again by the Spirit, we are justified in the sight of God by that faith…we are washed…
John 13:8-10 KJV 8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Hebrews 10:14-18 KJV 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
So, he is speaking of those who are trying to keep the law and justifiy themselves…keeping the law externally that is…that is why Jesus said…you may not have actually committed the act of adultery externally, but you have in your heart.
We are justified by faith apart from the works of the law which includes the moral law.
BUT - the true saving faith given as a gift from God produces fruit because it is the moment when the tree is made good…
Matthew 12:33 KJV 33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
We will still sin…BUT…
1 John 2:1 KJV 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Those who fall away were never born again…never justified…
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS95 1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
Romans 8:30 NAS95 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Romans 3:19-20 KJV 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
In the context, he is speaking of being guilty due to the breaking of God’s law - and by that law comes the knowledge of sin…
Romans 7:7 NAS95 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
Romans 4:15 NAS95 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
Wrath against sin, which is transgression of God’s law - the 10 commandments. He is speaking of the whole law and not part of it.
Is he not speaking of trying to use the law as a means of salvation…we cannot do it…even Jesus said we would have to pluck out our eyes and cut off our limbs in order to keep the law (he was sleoking of the 10 commandments). In other words, we cannot keep the law by the flesh…He was saying that our flesh must die and we must be reborn…we must trust in the work of Christ…and when we are born again by the Spirit, we are justified in the sight of God by that faith…we are washed…
John 13:8-10 KJV 8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Hebrews 10:14-18 KJV 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
So, he is speaking of those who are trying to keep the law and justifiy themselves…keeping the law externally that is…that is why Jesus said…you may not have actually committed the act of adultery externally, but you have in your heart.
We are justified by faith apart from the works of the law which includes the moral law.
BUT - the true saving faith given as a gift from God produces fruit because it is the moment when the tree is made good…
Matthew 12:33 KJV 33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
We will still sin…BUT…
1 John 2:1 KJV 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Those who fall away were never born again…never justified…
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS95 1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
Romans 8:30 NAS95 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
L
Linkowski
Guest
You never spoke of the meaning of the word “justified” in each of the cases…this is another problem for you.
M
Milliardo
Guest
I’m sorry–2 Corinthians 5:10 does not show that those who believe are judged prior to Judgment, as clearly stated: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.. Nothing there that supports your notion. Nor does Revelation 13:8 say anything about it, either.
1
123rock
Guest
Christ was simply trying to get the trader to acknowledge that he had sins and that he needed salvation. The trader says he kept all of the laws since he was young, and then Jesus tells him that in this case he should go and sell all he had and give it to the poor. He didn’t want to do that, and thus Jesus pointed out to him that he was a sinner. Repentance is what comes after faith in righteousness. As you see, he had already called Jesus a “good master,” for no apparent reason, and Jesus corrected him.
Where do you find the connection that this must be seen first? On the contrary, Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount is His promise of the reward to those who are to be in the kingdom of Heaven. It’s the result, not the process or beginning.
S
sandusky
Guest
The verses cited show each instance of the use of krisis in the NT; in good translations, it will be translated judgment. Do you understand now?
You seem to be having difficulty following a train of thought; Romans 6:5ff was cited to show that the believer’s sins were judged when the believer was crucified at Calvary (cf Col 2:13ff).
Assumes that I only pay lip-service to Christ, and ignore His commands.
Again, the penalty for all of my transgressions is paid in full by the cross (cf Col 2:13ff).
I wasn’t even alive when the forgiveness of all my transgressions was granted in Christ; but it was granted; it only awaited my arrival at the time of repentance appointed for me.
In response to Eph 2:1-3, you say:
With respect to freely choosing God’s ways:Romans 3:11b
There is none who seeks for God (cf Jn 6:44; Rom 8:6-8)With respect to man freely choosing his own path:Proverbs 16:1
1 The plans of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.
Proverbs 16:4
4 The Lord has made everything for His own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Proverbs 16:9
9 The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.
Proverbs 16:33
33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.
Proverbs 19:21
21 Many plans are in a man’s heart, but the counsel of the Lord will stand.
Proverbs 20:24
24 Man’s steps are ordained by the Lord, How then can man understand his way?
Job 12:6
6 “The tents of the destroyers prosper, and those who provoke God are secure, whom God brings into their power.
Psalm 139:16-17
16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Your book were all written the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.
17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How vast is the sum of them!IMO, you have a deficient understanding of God, and men; that’s not good.
M
Milliardo
Guest
Where? This is desperate attempt on your part–the underlined points do not indicate anything of that sort. What Paul points here is that the Law shows us what should not be done–that is, sin. Nothing in there that indicates that Paul is explicitly against it.
Again, nothing about it that Paul is explicitly against. Paul is only stating a fact–the fact that the Law does bring condemnation, since it is written in the negative sense (you shall not…). Again, nothing there that would support your claim.
Nowhere does he imply this. Even a cursory reading of Romans 3-5 would not net this, I am afraid. Again, Paul is not saying we should not keep the Law, but rather that Christ’s salvation is greater than the Law, and is a more positive step. However, knowing Christ should not stop one from obeying the Law, as Paul would later say in Romans.
Again, nothing there which supports your notion. The writer only acknowledges here that those who know and obey Him, and persevere in that, He will not condemn. Note that this is in harmony with the Judgment passages, not contradict it.
I love this–you keep repeating it as if a mantra.
Where is that said in that passage? It does not say what you believe it should’ve said.
S
sandusky
Guest
Great apologetic—be polite, talk in circles, and say it ain’t so.
M
Milliardo
Guest
I know, but ironically as well they contradict your position.
Isn’t that something?Nothing there that implies it. Sorry–you seem to be forcing another interpretation on it.
Past, present and future?
Yes, but you do realize you still need to repent and amend, yes?
Indeed, God does seek us, but we also seek Him, yes?
The point here is that God inspires man to glorify Him. Doesn’t say He forces man to speak for Him.
**
4 The Lord has made everything for His own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.**
God has an overall plan for man–that is his salvation through Christ, but it does not mean we are not free either. No go.
**
9 The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.**
The Lord is guide, but it does not mean He guides with a leash, but He gently directs and prompts. Nothing there that says we are tied up as to follow or not.
[pquote]Proverbs 16:33
33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.
Same point above–the Lord is inspiration, and directs man gently. However, that still doesn’t mean that the Lord lets man blindly obey, but gives man the freedom to discern and decide.
**
21 Many plans are in a man’s heart, but the counsel of the Lord will stand.
Proverbs 20:24
24 Man’s steps are ordained by the Lord, How then can man understand his way?**
Same points as above–the promptings of the Lord should be seen as guidance, not forced obedience or slavery. God guides us, prompts us, but does not force us. Nowhere in the passages you cited show us that we are not free or do not act freely.
- Status