"Works" Salvation? Part 2

[Linkowski]

You say it yourself… It is a work.

Nowhere in Catholic teaching will one ever find a statement that would give one the impression that salvation is simple fire insurance. Since that is not a Catholic teaching…you are arguing against a straw man.

So you get to heaven by fleshly works - you can elevate yourself to heavenly glory by repenting?? I think, again, it shows that it is a gift given by God…

1 Peter 1:3 NAS95 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy ***has caused us to be born again ***to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

I also am not sure what you are talking about…I said that salvation is NOT fire insurance.

 

[Linkowski]

Romans 11:6 NAS95 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Romans 9:11-23 NAS95 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.” 14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

Ephesians 1:4 NAS95 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Acts 13:48 NAS95 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 16:14 NAS95 14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; ***and the Lord opened her heart to respond ***to the things spoken by Paul.

 

[Linkowski]

Lazarus had nothing to do with his getting up!!

 

[Linkowski]

We are saved for works - not because of works.

 

[Church_Militant]

(cont’d)The person was not willing to make Christ Lord and you cannot have Christ as Savior unless you first repent and turn from your idols, your dreams, your relationships, your things, your sin and rebellion to Christ as Lord. This goes along with two other parables…

Matthew 13:44-46

Repentance is turning from your gods and your sin to Christ as Lord…you are in a sense, selling out. This is the first commandment…

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Once a person has made Christ Lord…once they have a repentant heart…once the soil is right, the seed can penetrate and take root…

15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

He says a couple of verses later…

Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have. Notice - they SEEM to have and they have not…only that last person in the parable.

Discipleship is the result of repentance which precedes salvation…and that person bears fruit with perseverance…they are born again…they are saved…

Romans 10:9 and :13-17

One must realize the cost of following Christ…one must receive Him as Lord…as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords if the gospel will penetrate into the heart properly.

Repentance as a gift…

Acts 11:18

2 Timothy 2:25-26

James 1:17
*The faith of the Lordship of Christ or the faith the Saviorship of Christ is all faith. It is His gift to us who were once dead in trespasses and in sins.*A Full long treatise on the actions that are part and parcel of salvation.

Repentance is an action…the Greek word meaning a complete reversal of paradigm, no where in the Word of God does it say or even imply that such a change is not carried out by one’s own volition.

The Catholic Church nowhere teaches that faith is not a gift of God, nor that that it is given as a grace from God.

Repentance, which is absolutely necessary for salvation is the response of the human spirit (made in the image and likeness of God) to that grace and gift of faith.

Psalm 95:8: Harden not your hearts, as at Mer’ibah, as on the day at Massah in the wilderness,
9: when your fathers tested me, and put me to the proof, though they had seen my work.
10: For forty years I loathed that generation and said, “They are a people who err in heart, and they do not regard my ways.”
11: Therefore I swore in my anger that they should not enter my rest.

1st Samuel 6:6: Why should you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? After he had made sport of them, did not they let the people go, and they departed?

2nd Chronicles 30: 7-9 7: Do not be like your fathers and your brethren, who were faithless to the LORD God of their fathers, so that he made them a desolation, as you see.
8: Do not now be stiff-necked as your fathers were, but yield yourselves to the LORD, and come to his sanctuary, which he has sanctified for ever, and serve the LORD your God, that his fierce anger may turn away from you.
9: For if you return to the LORD, your brethren and your children will find compassion with their captors, and return to this land. For the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if you return to him."

(New Testament references Hebrews 3:8 & 15, and 4:7)

As I have pointed out before, in the full context of the New Testament, Sola Fide is not scriptural.

 

[Church_Militant]

So you get to heaven by fleshly works - you can elevate yourself to heavenly glory by repenting?? I think, again, it shows that it is a gift given by God…

1 Peter 1:3 NAS95 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy ***has caused us to be born again ***

to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

I also am not sure what you are talking about…I said that salvation is NOT fire insurance.Substantiate from Catholic teaching anywhere that we are taught that we are saved by our works.

You cannot do so because such teaching does not exist. You however have chosen to ignore the plain teaching of the Word of God.

I suggest that you let go of your teachings of men and embrace the truth which is different from what you believe and well as what you seem to think that we believe.

 

[guanophore]

So you get to heaven by fleshly works - you can elevate yourself to heavenly glory by repenting?? I think, again, it shows that it is a gift given by God…

1 Peter 1:3 NAS95 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy ***has caused us to be born again ***to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

I also am not sure what you are talking about…I said that salvation is NOT fire insurance.

Are you saying that you believe that the individual has no say or part in becoming born again, or repentance from sin? All God, no action of the person?!

 

[Linkowski]

A Full long treatise on the actions that are part and parcel of salvation.

Repentance is an action…the Greek word meaning a complete reversal of paradigm, no where in the Word of God does it say or even imply that such a change is not carried out by one’s own volition.

The Catholic Church nowhere teaches that faith is not a gift of God, nor that that it is given as a grace from God.

Repentance, which is absolutely necessary for salvation is the response of the human spirit (made in the image and likeness of God) to that grace and gift of faith.

Psalm 95:8: Harden not your hearts, as at Mer’ibah, as on the day at Massah in the wilderness,
9: when your fathers tested me, and put me to the proof, though they had seen my work.
10: For forty years I loathed that generation and said, “They are a people who err in heart, and they do not regard my ways.”
11: Therefore I swore in my anger that they should not enter my rest.

1st Samuel 6:6: Why should you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? After he had made sport of them, did not they let the people go, and they departed?

2nd Chronicles 30: 7-9 7: Do not be like your fathers and your brethren, who were faithless to the LORD God of their fathers, so that he made them a desolation, as you see.
8: Do not now be stiff-necked as your fathers were, but yield yourselves to the LORD, and come to his sanctuary, which he has sanctified for ever, and serve the LORD your God, that his fierce anger may turn away from you.
9: For if you return to the LORD, your brethren and your children will find compassion with their captors, and return to this land. For the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if you return to him."

(New Testament references Hebrews 3:8 & 15, and 4:7)

As I have pointed out before, in the full context of the New Testament, Sola Fide is not scriptural.

Hebrews 3:17-19 KJV 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:1-3 KJV 1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

[Angainor]

All God, no action of the person?!

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Ephesians 2:8
All God.:getholy:

 

[sandusky]

guanophore:

Are you saying that you believe that the individual has no say or part in becoming born again, or repentance from sin? All God, no action of the person?!

All God…:bowdown: 1 Corinthians 1:30

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption

 

[guanophore]

Hebrews 4:1-3 KJV 1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

This is a good example, Link, of what I was saying about the mixture of grace (from God) and faith (from people). It is a process that requires something from each. God does not save us against our will.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Before you folks spend too many more man hours beating each other up, may I suggest that ALL of you read my OP in the thread entitled, “Bridging the ‘Faith Alone’ Divide”?

I welcome your thoughts on the concepts presented there.

Thanks.

 

[Linkowski]

The elect must persevere, we must walk worthy of this calling, yes…but this does not mean that one can lose their salvation. We must persevere and we will because God has soverignly decreed it from the foundation of the world…I love using this passage here…

Look in Acts 27

A group of people including Paul are on a ship and in trouble…Here is what Paul says has been God’s decree…

Acts 27:21-25 KJV 21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss. 22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man’s life among you, but of the ship. 23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, 24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee. 25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

God is sovereign and has predestined this to occur. So, does that mean everyone just sits back and lets God do everything?? No, look what then happens…

Acts 27:30-31 KJV 30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

If God’s decree is to come to fulfillment, the means by which it comes to pass must also take place…He said - DON"T GET OUT OF THE BOAT!! We are told this many times throughout scripture. YOU MUST PERSEVERE!!..and those who are truly saved will. If not, then they, in fact and indeed, were not chosen by God from the foundation of the world.

Romans 8:30 NAS95 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

But, in this passage in Acts 27, we see God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility working together - and God ordains both…predestines both. At this point you could also consider the prophecies of God…look how all of the circumstances worked together for Mary and Joseph to return to Bethlehem.

Ephesians 2:10 NAS95 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, ***which God prepared beforehand ***so that we would walk in them.

 

[Angainor]

Before you folks spend too many more man hours beating each other up, may I suggest that ALL of you read my OP in the thread entitled, “Bridging the ‘Faith Alone’ Divide”?

I welcome your thoughts on the concepts presented there.

Thanks.

[sign][thread=144849]Click here[/thread].[/sign]

 

[guanophore]

The elect must persevere, we must walk worthy of this calling, yes…but this does not mean that one can lose their salvation. We must persevere and we will because God has soverignly decreed it from the foundation of the world…I love using this passage here…

Look in Acts 27

A group of people including Paul are on a ship and in trouble…Here is what Paul says has been God’s decree…

Acts 27:21-25 KJV 21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss. 22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man’s life among you, but of the ship. 23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, 24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee. 25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

God is sovereign and has predestined this to occur. So, does that mean everyone just sits back and lets God do everything?? No, look what then happens…

Acts 27:30-31 KJV 30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

If God’s decree is to come to fulfillment, the means by which it comes to pass must also take place…He said - DON"T GET OUT OF THE BOAT!! We are told this many times throughout scripture. YOU MUST PERSEVERE!!..and those who are truly saved will. If not, then they, in fact and indeed, were not chosen by God from the foundation of the world.

Romans 8:30 NAS95 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

But, in this passage in Acts 27, we see God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility working together - and God ordains both…predestines both. At this point you could also consider the prophecies of God…look how all of the circumstances worked together for Mary and Joseph to return to Bethlehem.

Ephesians 2:10 NAS95 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, ***which God prepared beforehand ***so that we would walk in them.

How do you reconcile this with the fact that God desires all to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth?

 

[sandusky]

How do you reconcile this with the fact that God desires all to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth?

Be more specific; what is “this” that you desire to have reconciled with God’s desire?

 

[guanophore]

Be more specific; what is “this” that you desire to have reconciled with God’s desire?

That God predestines some persons to perdition.

 

[apophasis]

guanophore:

For Catholics, Apo, salvation is not seen as something that happens at one point in time like it is for OSAS. We see salvation as a process, that begins at one specific point in time, and continues throughout this life, and into the next.

Yes, I fully understand this. Yet in view of the cross Paul writes:Titus 3:4-5 "But when the kindness of God our Savior and [His] love for mankind appeared, He saved us (presented here as a fact, not a “process”), not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness (not on the basis of any deeds, even “done in righteousness,” so not a "process"), but according to His mercy (not our deeds), by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit (***IOW, no human works involved, hence, not a process ***)

In general, I would say that it is considered presumptuous to have an attitude of “eternal security”, being that it is all up to God, and we have no “claim” on His grace.

It is “presumptuous” for those who base salvation on something other than the cross of Christ. When one sees salvation in light of the cross (what was accomplished there, in full, on our behalf), then the comfort of eternal security could hardly be considered presumptuous. But when someone sees salvation as a “process,” wrought in men and not in Christ, then I fully understand that to such a mind it must seem presumptuous. However, if one would fully understands the cross, such notions would be forever expelled and all uncertainties would disappear, your faith resting only in God.

The actions of a believer are part of his salvation to the extent that they reflect and demonstrate the presence of saving grace within the soul.

But not that the soul is actually saved; salvation being a “work in process,” probationary in nature, and pending the state in which a RC dies.

We will be judged by our words and deeds: At that time, it will be evaluated how well we demonstrated deeds worthy of repentance. Some will receive merit (crowns) and others will be purged and will enter into heaven with the smell of smoke on their garments.

IOW, these two groups are judged “worthy” based on their words and deeds. The former more readily “worthy” than the latter - but, nevertheless, you claim both groups enter heaven based on the worthiness of their deeds (works).

What about the group that doesn’t enter heaven? The condemned? On what basis then are they blocked? You quoted Matt. 12:36-37: "I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."I must assume you view this verse in a broad soteriological context, since that’s the way you present it. Which would then (according to you) render ALL men either saved or damned based exclusively on the criterion of the worthiness of their words and deeds (works).

What we see is the cross being conspicuously left out of the picture. This, believe it or not, is the greatest flaw and egregious error of the proponents of salvation based on the meritorious works of men, rather than completely on the “once for all” substitutionary, sacrificial work of Christ. And for this reason the Pauline doctrines on salvation, justification, reconciliation, etc., found in his Epistles, are incomprehensible to them. Why? Because ALL his teachings, even exhortations on behavior, are delivered to the saints in light of the cross and the salvation God accomplished there - not apart from it. This, of course, goes for all teachings found in all the N.T. Epistles, as well.

Sorry “Guano,” but when the Epistles are illuminated by the light of the cross, one cannot find the Catholic doctrine of “salvation by cooperation” taught in them. Try reading the Epistles in that light next time. You just might see a divine salvation based on GRACE, through faith alone, firmly rooted in the cross of Christ, totally apart from human works of any kind.

 

[mikeledes]

You’re missing the point of the passage; it is a statement of an individual’s culpability for his own sin. This is not a passage dealing with salvation, but with the temporal difficulties Israel is experiencing, at that time, because of their sins. Here are the sins, in context:

Ezekiel 18:10-13

Edited due to shortage of space

If you believe this to be a soteriological statement, which it is not, then it is incumbent upon you to demonstrate that, and you must demonstrate that the “righteous” man spoken of here indeed possesses the righteousness of God, rather than a general righteousness among men; additionally, you must demonstrate that the death spoken of is eternal death, rather than merely physical death. You’ve done neither.

The basic point of my use of the passage was to demonstrate that a righteous person can fail to persevere. If you believe in the perseverance of the saints, than that has soteriological (name removed by moderator)lications for your theology. A person who dies in sin, having turned away from God, has not persevered to the end. And yet the Bible states that only those who persevere to the end will be saved. The righteous in question possess the righteousness of God because God describes them as being righteous, hence they are righteous in His eyes. If they are righteous in His eyes, than they possess the righteousness of God. In God’s eyes, you are either ungodly or righteous. There is no in between from God’s perspective.

You are not allegory, this passage is, and it is, contextually, and specifically about the 12, with the 1, Judas, being the branch removed (v6). If one does not belong, one is removed. Again, the Lord says that some will believe, and can be said therefore, to be in Him for a while; but that does not mean that one abides there.

**The allegeory is about all of the followers of Christ, not just the Twelve. This is accepted by many Protestants as well. One is not a part of something one does not belong to. If the faith of a person is not genuine faith, they cannot be in Christ. A branch, by nature, definition, and logic, is an integral part of a plant (i.e. tree, vine, etc.), just as my hand is an integral part of my body. A branch enjoys the life giving nutrients that come from the Vine. If it is cut off, it dies. Jesus clearly states “branch in me.” He recognizes them as being incorporated into Him. If they were not genuinely in Him, he would not describe them as such. A person may appear to be in Christ to other Christians, but they cannot fool God. **

Romans 11 is an overall statement concerning God’s plan of salvation, and the Jew and gentile’s position in it; Paul is admonishing the gentiles to stop boasting about their salvation, which he says is to make Israel envious; not something about which those boasting should be boasting.

Edited due to shortage of space

This is a passage that says that Israel’s is not completely cut off from salvation; and an admonition to boasting gentiles to knock off the boasting for which there is no justification.

Yes, he tells them to knock off the boasting because they also may cease being in God’s kindness and experience the severity of God by being cut off. That part you did not address. You cannot “continue” in God’s kindness if you were never in God’s kindness to begin with. That’s just plain logic.

Paul is in the process of laying out an argument which culminates in 3:20; namely, no one is justified by law; in this portion of the argument (ch2 ), is a general statement of God’s dealing with those apart from the Gospel—their works; no one is saved apart from the gospel, as no one can do sufficient works according to the law to be saved; if that is possible, then there is no need for Christ.

Paul establishes a general principle contstantly repeated throughout the Bible, that we will be judged according to our works. It’s not a unique part of a well-crafted argument, but a universal truth upheld throughout the Bible

Again, let’s get strictly contextual; the beginning context for this passage is v6—financial support for one’s spiritual/theological teachers.

Are you sowing to the spirit by financially supporting, and sharing what you have with your teachers?

Or, are you sowing to the flesh by keeping back substantial financial support from your teachers?

That is the context of the reaping and sowing spoken of in this passage—financial support for one’s spiritual teachers.
​

Yes, and he says that if you sow to the Spirit (i.e. doing good), you will reap eternal life. That part you did not address. This verse is directly related to the verse in Romans 2. God will judge us according to our works.

God Bless,
Michael​

 

[mikeledes]

The elect must persevere, we must walk worthy of this calling, yes…but this does not mean that one can lose their salvation. We must persevere and we will because God has soverignly decreed it from the foundation of the world…I love using this passage here…

Look in Acts 27

A group of people including Paul are on a ship and in trouble…Here is what Paul says has been God’s decree…

Acts 27:21-25 KJV 21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss. 22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man’s life among you, but of the ship. 23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, 24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee. 25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

God is sovereign and has predestined this to occur. So, does that mean everyone just sits back and lets God do everything?? No, look what then happens…

Acts 27:30-31 KJV 30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

If God’s decree is to come to fulfillment, the means by which it comes to pass must also take place…He said - DON"T GET OUT OF THE BOAT!! We are told this many times throughout scripture. YOU MUST PERSEVERE!!..and those who are truly saved will. If not, then they, in fact and indeed, were not chosen by God from the foundation of the world.

Romans 8:30 NAS95 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

But, in this passage in Acts 27, we see God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility working together - and God ordains both…predestines both. At this point you could also consider the prophecies of God…look how all of the circumstances worked together for Mary and Joseph to return to Bethlehem.

Ephesians 2:10 NAS95 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, ***which God prepared beforehand ***so that we would walk in them.

Do you believe that God incorporates the free will of the elect in accomoplishing their salvation?

God Bless,
Michael