"Works" Salvation? Part 2

[Linkowski]

My attitude about Calvinist predestination is this. If I am one of the elect and Calvinism is correct, than I will die a Calvinist. If I do not die a Calvinist and I go to Hell, there was nothing I could do to change that fact.

I believe that there is an elect and that the elect will be infallibly saved. They can never fall away. However, the Bible indicates that there are those who genuinely experience justification (i.e. partaking of the Holy Spirit, sanctification by the blood of Christ), but will lose this grace. These were not numbered among the elect and the fact that they fell away and died in that state demonstrates that they were never of the elect. I don’t believe that God does not simply pass over the non-elect. Rather, he gives them a genuine opportunity to experience His saving grace, but allows them to remain in their sin when they chose to turn away from Him. I believe that no one can have absolute assurance that they are of the elect. A person can easily deceive him or herself.

I believe that God sanctifies the elect by the blood of Christ and gives them the gift of faith, the holy Spirit and the graces necessary to conform their lives to the free gift of righteousness by living righteously, thus fulfilling the requirements He Himself has established for their salvation. However, I believe he incorporates the elect’s free will in accomplishing His plan of salvation.

This is what I believe and this is what I believe the Bible teaches.

God Bless,
Michael

I have to say that election draws the whole of scripture together and causes one to really take a look at the passages that you are speaking of…the only reason one does not enter heaven is because of unbelief…many will say…“well you can lose it through willful and premeditated sin” - but what is the root of that sin if it is wilful, premediated, and continues on in the life of that individual?? It is unbelief.

What you say if that you can have true genuine faith in Christ (which is a gift of God) but still fall away…but we are told…

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS95 1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, **if you hold fast the word **which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

On the other hand…

Hebrews 3:14 NAS95 14 For we **have become **partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

If you use only these few controversial passages to say that there must be a group of non-elect Christians, I would ask that you look for that non-elect yet justified group elsewhere in scripture…but you will not find them. All Christians are looked upon as the elect…

Ephesians 1:3-4 NAS95 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

1 Peter 1:2 KJV 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 5:13 KJV 13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

2 Peter 1:10 KJV 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

There only those whom He has mercy on and those who are hardened…

Romans 9:13-20 KJV 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

 

[mikeledes]

I have to say that election draws the whole of scripture together and causes one to really take a look at the passages that you are speaking of…the only reason one does not enter heaven is because of unbelief…many will say…“well you can lose it through willful and premeditated sin” - but what is the root of that sin if it is wilful, premediated, and continues on in the life of that individual?? It is unbelief.

What you say if that you can have true genuine faith in Christ (which is a gift of God) but still fall away…but we are told…

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS95 1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, **if you hold fast the word **which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

On the other hand…

Hebrews 3:14 NAS95 14 For we **have become **partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

If you use only these few controversial passages to say that there must be a group of non-elect Christians, I would ask that you look for that non-elect yet justified group elsewhere in scripture…but you will not find them. All Christians are looked upon as the elect…

Ephesians 1:3-4 NAS95 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

1 Peter 1:2 KJV 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 5:13 KJV 13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

2 Peter 1:10 KJV 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

There only those whom He has mercy on and those who are hardened…

Romans 9:13-20 KJV 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 does not say “unless you have false faith.” Rather, it says “unless you have believed in vain.” In other words, when a person comes to believe in Christ, they must persevere until the end. If they failed to persevere, than that genuine act of faith was done in vain because it did not lead to the final stage of salvation, glorification. Again, it does not say “unless you do not truly believe.”

Secondly, limiting God’s justifying grace to the elect makes God into a liar.

Ezekiel 18:23

23"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? "

A God that takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and desires that he/she turns from his/her evil ways will not limit his justifying grace to a select group of people, never giving others the opportunity to repent. Christ died for all, even those who are not of the elect:

2 Peter 2:1

**1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce )destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. **

There is also the possibility of receiving the grace of God in vain:

2 Corinthians 6:1

**1And (working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain-- **

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

…many will say…“well you can lose it through willful and premeditated sin” - but what is the root of that sin if it is wilful, premediated, and continues on in the life of that individual?? It is unbelief.

What you say if that you can have true genuine faith in Christ (which is a gift of God) but still fall away…but we are told…

While I can agree that faith is a gift from God because all that we are is of Him, faith is a characteristic that dwells in humans, and is a function of their humanity. I just finished a word study on this, and Jesus overwhelmingly speaks to each about “your faith” making you whole, healing you, etc. It is like a muscle that can wither if not nutured, be blown out if not protected, and strengthened if exercised. It is evidenced by obedient action. There are also some vague passages:

"And behold, they brought to him a paralytic, lying on his bed; and when Jesus saw their faith he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.” Matt 9:2

How did Jesus “see” their faith? Other people came to him without faith…the rich young ruler, for example, who went away very sad.

 

[Truthstalker]

I get the feeling people are simply posting previous posts, or borrowing posts from previous threads, etc. What you need to do is look at the presuppositions. Each side is operating out of a set of presuppositions of what verses trump other verses, that is, that a set of verses must be read in light of another set of verses. This is arguing on the basis of Scripture alone. The Catholic Church doesn’t do that. This is the reason the Church doesn’t do that, and that is you can have endless and foolish disputes about words. Who will decide what the primary verses are, and what needs to be interpreted in light of what?

“They will never perish” or “I will judge them by their works”

Which is primary?

Verse tennis is boring.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Verse tennis is boring.

That’s good:thumbsup: I like that did you just make it up?

 

[Truthstalker]

That’s good:thumbsup: I like that did you just make it up?

No. It’s been around. Tennis, ping-pong, whatever. It’s when both sides try to drown the other in verses without responding. There is reponse here.

 

[Linkowski]

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 does not say “unless you have false faith.” Rather, it says “unless you have believed in vain.” In other words, when a person comes to believe in Christ, they must persevere until the end. If they failed to persevere, than that genuine act of faith was done in vain because it did not lead to the final stage of salvation, glorification. Again, it does not say “unless you do not truly believe.”

Secondly, limiting God’s justifying grace to the elect makes God into a liar.

Ezekiel 18:23

23"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? "

A God that takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and desires that he/she turns from his/her evil ways will not limit his justifying grace to a select group of people, never giving others the opportunity to repent. Christ died for all, even those who are not of the elect:

2 Peter 2:1

1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce )destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

There is also the possibility of receiving the grace of God in vain:

2 Corinthians 6:1

**1And (working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain-- **

God Bless,
Michael

If God could elect some to salvation…certainly he could elect all. BUT…He does not…

Isaiah 55:8-9 KJV 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

He WISHES that all could be saved, but, apparently, this is not His plan and not what is best. Please note, the elect could not come except that they were chosen from the foundation of the world…prior to any works that they ever did…and it is not by their will as it says in Romans 9 but of His will…His sovereign decree.. This is the basis on which I say - if he can elect some, why doesn’t He elect all if his will is also that all would be saved…because you have a sovereign decree (His will that will absolutely come to pass), His preceptive will (commands that He wants for us to obey), and His disposition - a desire that all could be saved.

Romans 9:11-23 KJV 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 **Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. ** Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[guanophore]

I get the feeling people are simply posting previous posts, or borrowing posts from previous threads, etc. What you need to do is look at the presuppositions. Each side is operating out of a set of presuppositions of what verses trump other verses, that is, that a set of verses must be read in light of another set of verses. This is arguing on the basis of Scripture alone. The Catholic Church doesn’t do that. This is the reason the Church doesn’t do that, and that is you can have endless and foolish disputes about words. Who will decide what the primary verses are, and what needs to be interpreted in light of what?

“They will never perish” or “I will judge them by their works”

Which is primary?

Verse tennis is boring.

I think it is probably neither, and the task is to see how they fit together. However, I would be happy to bring some of the writing of the early fathers, and the teaching of the magesterium!

 

[Truthstalker]

I think it is probably neither, and the task is to see how they fit together. However, I would be happy to bring some of the writing of the early fathers, and the teaching of the magesterium!

The temptation is to force one set of verses into the mold of the other.

How did the ECF view things? As a Catholic you are free to use these authorities; you are also free to be as a Jew unto the Jews and a Sola Scripturist unto a Sola Scripturist. In a way Tradition can often be viewed as millenial cogitation on Scripture. Not always, but sometimes as an exposition.

 

[mikeledes]

If God could elect some to salvation…certainly he could elect all. BUT…He does not…

Isaiah 55:8-9 KJV 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

He WISHES that all could be saved, but, apparently, this is not His plan and not what is best. Please note, the elect could not come except that they were chosen from the foundation of the world…prior to any works that they ever did…and it is not by their will as it says in Romans 9 but of His will…His sovereign decree.. This is the basis on which I say - if he can elect some, why doesn’t He elect all if his will is also that all would be saved…because you have a sovereign decree (His will that will absolutely come to pass), His preceptive will (commands that He wants for us to obey), and His disposition - a desire that all could be saved.

Romans 9:11-23 KJV 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 **Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. ** Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Thank you for your response. Your arguments are always compelling. But can you respond to the second half of my post.

As for Calvinist predestination, this is my attitude. Presently, the only versions of Christianity that I’m interested in looking into other than Catholicism are those that lean to Arminianism. Why? Because if I am of the elect, than I will inevitably end up a Calvinist. If I’m not, then there is nothing I can do about it. If there is free will, however, then maybe there is hope for me. At present, I’m satisfied with the Catholic teachings on predestination and salvation because I believe they reflect the Gospel of Christ.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[apophasis]

The temptation is to force one set of verses into the mold of the other.

How did the ECF view things?

Just curious -

(1) What would prevent you from doing the same with those writings?

(2) How do you know you don’t interpret those writings based on your own religious presuppositions?

(3) Since those writings are not divinely inspired, therefore having absolutely no more authority than my or your posts, are you then, a RC, allowed to interpret them “privately?”

(4) I’m amazed how RCs are always anxious to jump to those writings to confirm their doctrines. Is it because you find far more support in them than in those which are theopneustos (God-breathed)?

(5) How is it RCs always claim that Paul’s writing are “hard to understand” yet claim to fully understand those non-inspired writings?

(6) Since they’re not divinely inspired, how do you know they don’t contain errors? And if you form your doctrines based on them, you would be propagating those errors.

To me it’s a total waste of time to debate for hours over writings that hold no divine authority. True Christianity is based on Divine Revelation. That which God Himself has revealed. That’s what makes it unique.

 

[Linkowski]

Thank you for your response. Your arguments are always compelling. But can you respond to the second half of my post.

As for Calvinist predestination, this is my attitude. Presently, the only versions of Christianity that I’m interested in looking into other than Catholicism are those that lean to Arminianism. Why? Because if I am of the elect, than I will inevitably end up a Calvinist. If I’m not, then there is nothing I can do about it. If there is free will, however, then maybe there is hope for me. At present, I’m satisfied with the Catholic teachings on predestination and salvation because I believe they reflect the Gospel of Christ.

God Bless,
Michael

Christ’s death was sufficient for all, that is most certain - he tasted death for every man…but is His death efficient for all? Do not the people that go to hell pay the punishment for their sins? How could Christ have taken their sins upon himself if they are bearing them for all eternity?

One more question…what do you say to all of the scriptures that call us the elect?

Thanks.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Christ’s death was sufficient for all, that is most certain - he tasted death for every man…but is His death efficient for all? Do not the people that go to hell pay the punishment for their sins? How could Christ have taken their sins upon himself if they are bearing them for all eternity?

WOW that is interesting. I would never have looked at it that way. I feel like Im in a bible study here reading everyone’s posts

I am getting every angle and you guys have no idea how much Im learning. Of course I could never spit it back at you.

So thanks to all participating in this thread on both sides of the coin:thumbsup:

 

[mikeledes]

Christ’s death was sufficient for all, that is most certain - he tasted death for every man…but is His death efficient for all? Do not the people that go to hell pay the punishment for their sins? How could Christ have taken their sins upon himself if they are bearing them for all eternity?

One more question…what do you say to all of the scriptures that call us the elect?

Thanks.

So can an non-elect person be considered “bought”?

Christ died for all, but only the elect will fully enjoy the benefits of Christ’s death.

Based on Romans 11, Hebrews 6, and other passages, I believe that there is the possibility that some will enjoy the first stage of salvation, but will not be saved, receiving the grace of God in vain. These obviously cannot be of the elect because they fall away and the elect can never permanently fall away.

While I’m aware of passages that discuss the elect, I don’t believe they automatically mean all of the justified are counted among the elect.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Linkowski]

Mikeledes…Hello!!

I wanted to make mention of one more thing…the gospel call goes out to all, right??

What about all these others…they got a bum deal, didn’t they…

Esau:

Romans 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Judas…

John 13:18 "I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.’

Judas was among the chosen from the standpoint of the 12 but not of the elect…

Pharaoh…

Romans 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”

Christ died for them too…BUT…

The church, the called, the elect…all the same…

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are **the called **according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I think the problem we have is this…we have an infinite God writing to a finite mind…we have one who **knows all **having to write to a people (dumb sheep) who only see things in accordance with the here and now…He invites all so that the elect might come. Imagine if all of the scriptures said…All you elect…come to me!! That would be strange to us would it not?

May God Show Us…

 

[mikeledes]

WOW that is interesting. I would never have looked at it that way. I feel like Im in a bible study here reading everyone’s posts

 

[ALLFORHIM]

ALLFORHIM;2100327:

It’s alway a pleasure having you in a thread. Your humility and the highly congenial tone of your posts help lighten up the place. It can get a bit overly aggressive and sometimes even nasty at times. So thank you for your posts.

God Bless,
Michael

P.S. I hope that this does not lead you into Calvinism, going from bad to worse. Just kidding! About the second half of what I just said, of course.

Dont worry there are parts of Calvinism that I believe go too far. We talk about it in my bible study. Extreme Calvinism is bad.

Thank you for your kind words.

 

[mikeledes]

Linkowksi, here are a couple of Protestant websites against TULIP. What do you think?:

gospelcenterchurch.org/tulip.html

afcministry.com/why_respond_to_Calvinism.htm

jesus-is-lord.com/calvin.htm

Also, what does perseverance of the saints mean? What does perseverance involve?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

Just curious -

(1) What would prevent you from doing the same with those writings?

If one approaches the study open mindedly, without a prior prejudice, then the likelyhood of forcing the evidence into one’s prior conclusion is less. If a person starts out with a preconception, and only looks for information to confirm it, then there is nothing that will prevent one from misapplication of the evidence.

(2) How do you know you don’t interpret those writings based on your own religious presuppositions?

It is hard not to do this. A good start is to be aware of one’s presuppositions, then strive to set them aside in order to objectively examine the evidence.

(3) Since those writings are not divinely inspired, therefore having absolutely no more authority than my or your posts, are you then, a RC, allowed to interpret them “privately?”

Catholics recognize many levels of inspiration. I think that the early fathers rank quite a bit higher than the opinions in my posts.

We already have the infallible testimony of the Magesterium that the interpretation of predestination championed upon this board by the OSAS is in error, so my personal opinion becomes somewhat moot.

(4) I’m amazed how RCs are always anxious to jump to those writings to confirm their doctrines. Is it because you find far more support in them than in those which are theopneustos (God-breathed)?

Depends on the doctrine. The point made previously is that it is six of one, half dozen of the others. I know from your perspective it does not seem that way, but either position can be effectively defended with scripture. Scripture was never intended to be the sole source of divine revelation, and that is why Catholics are ‘quick to jump’. We have resources to guard and guide our understanding of scripture that extends back to the first centuries, and we consider those sources of value, unlike the 'Sola Scriptura folks, who prefer to deny the evidence available because it is not on the same level of inspiration.

(5) How is it RCs always claim that Paul’s writing are “hard to understand” yet claim to fully understand those non-inspired writings?

The fact that Paul’s writings are hard to understand is a scriptural teaching, and the RC’s hold to all that scripture teaches. Other writings must be considered according to their sources. The RC church has spent the last 2000 years doing textual, historical, and literary criticism of the documents, and they have stood the test of time. Just like the nicean creed, which is not found verbatim in the scripture in the form in which it was adopted (and the trinity) the church recognizes that infallible truth can also be found outside the scripure.

(6) Since they’re not divinely inspired, how do you know they don’t contain errors? And if you form your doctrines based on them, you would be propagating those errors.

The writings of the early fathers that are not part of the current canon are not because they were found to be of lesser authenticity or accuracy than the writings that were included. That does not mean they are without value. Your Strong’s concordance is not inspired, either, to the level that the Bible is, but you would not say it is without value!

There are no Catholic doctrines that contradict the scripture.

To me it’s a total waste of time to debate for hours over writings that hold no divine authority. True Christianity is based on Divine Revelation. That which God Himself has revealed. That’s what makes it unique.

In that case, I will not bring the writings into this debate.

 

[Linkowski]

Linkowksi, here are a couple of Protestant websites against TULIP. What do you think?:

gospelcenterchurch.org/tulip.html

afcministry.com/why_respond_to_Calvinism.htm

jesus-is-lord.com/calvin.htm

Also, what does perseverance of the saints mean? What does perseverance involve?

God Bless,
Michael

You have to admit - these are good questions. I have only been looking at this for the last few months. I will look at your links.

I also agree - I love ALLFORHIM’s postings.