"Works" Salvation? Part 2

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mikeledes said:
Linkowksi, here are a couple of Protestant websites against TULIP. What do you think?:

gospelcenterchurch.org/tulip.html

afcministry.com/why_respond_to_Calvinism.htm

jesus-is-lord.com/calvin.htm

Also, what does perseverance of the saints mean? What does perseverance involve?

God Bless,
Michael
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God predestines people to persevere…the elect will not fall away. Once saved - always saved…

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Once you pass from death to life - there is no condemnation…

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

I was able to look at one link very quickly and all of that can be refuted…especially the foreknowledge part. This is not simple knowing in advance of something. God “foreknew” Christ dying on the cross but that does not mean that He just knew what was going to happen ahead of time. It was forethought - foreplanned - they were foreloved…

Otherwise, this would make man sovereign…God just sees what we are going to do and then plans according to what we choose. It makes it clear that the elect are the elect before the foundation of the world…before they did any good or evil is done by them…

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

It is God’s will/purpose/plan and not that of the elect…

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

It is in accordance with His plan - His purpose…foreknowledge is not simple knowing ahead of time…it has the idea of forethought, foreplanned…foreloved.

Yes - Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient for all…infinitely…but is only efficient for those who believe. And, as I said before and I will say it again…elect is synonymous with Christian in the NT.

The key in election is that no person, unsaved, knows whether they are or are not of the elect. We are to go out and invite all so that the elect might come to salvation.
 
Linkowski said:
God predestines people to persevere…the elect will not fall away. Once saved - always saved…

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Once you pass from death to life - there is no condemnation…

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

I was able to look at one link very quickly and all of that can be refuted…especially the foreknowledge part. This is not simple knowing in advance of something. God “foreknew” Christ dying on the cross but that does not mean that He just knew what was going to happen ahead of time. It was forethought - foreplanned - they were foreloved…

Otherwise, this would make man sovereign…God just sees what we are going to do and then plans according to what we choose. It makes it clear that the elect are the elect before the foundation of the world…before they did any good or evil is done by them…

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

It is God’s will/purpose/plan and not that of the elect…

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

It is in accordance with His plan - His purpose…foreknowledge is not simple knowing ahead of time…it has the idea of forethought, foreplanned…foreloved.

Yes - Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient for all…infinitely…but is only efficient for those who believe. And, as I said before and I will say it again…elect is synonymous with Christian in the NT.

The key in election is that no person, unsaved, knows whether they are or are not of the elect. We are to go out and invite all so that the elect might come to salvation.
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How do you know if you are of the elect?

How can a non-elect person be sanctified? What does that mean?

How can a non-elect person partake of the Holy Spirit?

Can a non-elect person be bought by Christ?

Can Protestants who do not believe in TULIP and die believing this be members of the elect?

Questions, questions, questions. I hope I haven’t overwhelmed you with questions.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Linkowski said:
You have to admit - these are good questions. I have only been looking at this for the last few months. I will look at your links.

I also agree - I love ALLFORHIM’s postings.
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Be careful you guys are going togive me a BIG FAT HEAD!!:cool:

LOL
 
mikeledes said:
How do you know if you are of the elect?

How can a non-elect person be sanctified? What does that mean?

How can a non-elect person partake of the Holy Spirit?

Can a non-elect person be bought by Christ?

Can Protestants who do not believe in TULIP and die believing this be members of the elect?

Questions, questions, questions. I hope I haven’t overwhelmed you with questions.

God Bless,
Michael
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It seems strange to me that of all the people I’ve ever talked to who believed in predestination, all of them were certain they were ‘the elect.’
 
So how does perseverance work out logistically. In other words, we talk about the elect will persevere, but how does that work out in everyday life? What does it mean to persevere? Persevere in what?

God bless,
Michael
 
ALLFORHIM said:
🤷 That is between them and God.👍
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This is why I consider Calvinism to be a wicked, evil doctrine (G.K. Chesterton called it “the last lie in Hell”). On the on hand it can lead to the sin of presumption: You might assume your name is on the heavenly roll simply because you’re a regular Bible-toting, go-to-meeting kind of person. On the other hand, if you are struggling with sin, experiencing dryness in your spiritual life, or maybe just having problems, it may lead to the opposite sin of despair, believing that perhaps you **are **predestined to Hell.

As G.K Chesterton also noted, if predestination is true, then this life is pointless. To him our three score and ten on this planet was the battle, to the Calvinist, it was simply marking time until the crack of doom.
 
mikeledes said:
So how does perseverance work out logistically. In other words, we talk about the elect will persevere, but how does that work out in everyday life? What does it mean to persevere? Persevere in what?

God bless,
Michael
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In my opinion it is through all the trials and tribulations we go through. Christ said being a christian wasnt going to be easy. He said the world would hate us because the world hates Him first and we follow him. Plus any illness or abd things that happen to us in this life. God is watching to see how we handle these things. Do we wallow in our suffering or are we singing praises to God for it and being joyful–like Paul says.😃

That is what perserverence means to me.👍
 
RNRobert said:
This is why I consider Calvinism to be a wicked, evil doctrine (G.K. Chesterton called it “the last lie in Hell”). On the on hand it can lead to the sin of presumption: You might assume your name is on the heavenly roll simply because you’re a regular Bible-toting, go-to-meeting kind of person. On the other hand, if you are struggling with sin, experiencing dryness in your spiritual life, or maybe just having problems, it may lead to the opposite sin of despair, believing that perhaps you **are **predestined to Hell.

As G.K Chesterton also noted, if predestination is true, then this life is pointless. To him our three score and ten on this planet was the battle, to the Calvinist, it was simply marking time until the crack of doom.
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Hi,
I am not a follower of Calvinism 100%. I think some calvinists take things too far and are(I wouldnt say evil–because then I would have to say the same thing of the CC:p ) wrong and extremists.

I understand what you are saying above that is why we are not to judge others because we simply do not know their heart. However, it does not make the doctrine any less true.
 
ALLFORHIM said:
Hi,

I understand what you are saying above that is why we are not to judge others because we simply do not know their heart. However, it does not make the doctrine any less true.
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I respectfully disagree with you regarding the bolded portion, for the reasons I explained above.
 
RNRobert said:
I respectfully disagree with you regarding the bolded portion, for the reasons I explained above.
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I know predestination is a tough peice of the bible. I cant really fully wrap my head around it but it is clear in scripture.🤷 I think this is just one of those doctrines that makes God look like a bad God but try to remember He is Sovereign and we are not and He sees the Big Picture and we do not. God does whatever He wants whether we like it or not.

If anything predestination has humbled me to think that God thought of me and chose me before the world was created. I really cant grasp the enormity of that!! Im sure you cant either.
But just because we cant grasp it doesnt mean it is not true.

I dont like the thought of God purposely sending someone to hell, but it really doesnt matter what I think. He is my Creator and I am the created so I should put myself in my place way below God.😃
 
ALLFORHIM said:
I know predestination is a tough peice of the bible. I cant really fully wrap my head around it but it is clear in scripture.🤷 I think this is just one of those doctrines that makes God look like a bad God but try to remember He is Sovereign and we are not and He sees the Big Picture and we do not. God does whatever He wants whether we like it or not.

If anything predestination has humbled me to think that **God thought of me and chose me **before the world was created. I really cant grasp the enormity of that!! Im sure you cant either.
But just because we cant grasp it doesnt mean it is not true.

I dont like the thought of God purposely sending someone to hell, but it really doesnt matter what I think. He is my Creator and I am the created so I should put myself in my place way below God.😃
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Regarding the bolded section above, how do you know God chose you?

The Bible says God desires ALL to be saved. If some of us are pre-chosen to go to heaven and the rest pre=chosen to burn in hell, then we are merely automatons doing what we were pre-programmed to do, not creatures who freely choose to love God. Yes, God has the big picture and knows who will choose Him and who will not, but I do not believe God creates anyone just to burn in Hell. It is not what Scripture teaches, nor what the Catholic Church teaches, and since they were around for 1500 years before Luther and Calvin and company came around to teach something different, I’m stickin’ with them. 👍
 
sandusky said:
That is a Catholic teaching, and that is why Catholics believe that they can lose their justification/salvation.
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One cannot “lose” their salvation – as it is a lifelong process and not a one time event. You are not saved till you have been judged righteous by God and are given the Beatific Vision.
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sandusky:
The corollary to not being good enough to earn salvation, is not being bad enough to lose it.
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We do not earn our salvation, it is a free gift from Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross. We can however get disconnected from Him by going against His will. This is why He instituted the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
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sandusky:
That is because it is God who is at work in the Christian to work and to will (Php 2), and because the Christian is kept by the power of God through faith for salvation (1 Pet 1:3).
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Yes, but not by faith alone, but by a living faith. We must respond to God’s will for us to do good works and charities.
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sandusky:
If you can lose justification/salvation, that can only be because it is based upon your performance, be it negatively, or positively; either way, it is your performance that is in view.
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Yes it is. The Earth is a school and the Church is the nurse’s office.
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sandusky:
That is a false assumption; namely, that the omnipotent God of the universe is impotent when it comes to getting the preaching of the Gospel to those He intends to save.
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So you are saying that there are those God does not intend to save when His only begotten Son died for everyone? Now that is pretty hypocritical.
 
If this was answered by the OSAS crowd, I missed it:

And what about this verse:
Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,
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