"Works" Salvation?

[jack_hawkins]

To add my hap’orth to an already well done topic, having been on “both sides” like other people here:
to say that one you’ve been saved that you don’t have to do anything else seems clearly wrong - faith without works is dead I’m sure we can all agree.
the Catholic Church provides a framework for people, which can be misused I believe
I enjoy going to Mass every Sunday, and it’s not a problem
if I was back at work and I couldn’t get to a Mass I wouldn’t feel guilty
there’s been times when I just couldn’t go, and there is no way I would let anyone make me feel guilty about it either!
I have to say I do have a problem with indulgences attached to certain devotions, but not a massive problem
all Christians need to live the life, and all need the grace of God to do that
I am fasting for Lent. I know I am not obliged to, and I would not feel condemned if I broke my fast, but it is something I want to do to grow closer to God. fasting is certainly a Biblical command

 

[Randy_Carson]

Apop, Sandusky, Linkowski, et al:

I have just a few basic questions:

1. 
   *]Can you give me one verse of Scripture that states we are justified (or saved) by “faith alone”?
   *]If a man does not care for his family, does that affect his salvation?
   *]Can we be saved if we go against God’s will and do not walk in the good works that God has prepared for us beforehand?
   *]If you have faith, but have not works, can your faith save you?
   *]Do you believe that God will give or deny eternal life to every man according to his works?
   I look forward to hearing from you.

 

[NotWorthy]

You move from Christ’s finished, redemptive work on the cross to your works during this life. I think dcdurel in post # 146 expressed it all quite well - you must merit in this life the salvation Christ “earned.” Your whole salvation hinges on these so-called divinely, enabled, meritorioius works.

Hence, Christ and His work on the cross moves to the background and your meritorious works to the foreground.

No, our good works would be nothing without the Sacrifice of the Cross. The Mosaic Covenant proved that. But, Christ, who asked us to “Be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect”, certainly wishes us to do good for others, or else we wouldn’t be offered the rewards in heaven.

Our Good Works, for which we are made, would be nothing though, without the Saving Grace of Christ.

 

[NotWorthy]

Apop, Sandusky, Linkowski, et al:

I have just a few basic questions:

1. 
   *]Can you give me one verse of Scripture that states we are justified (or saved) by “faith alone”?
   *]If a man does not care for his family, does that affect his salvation?
   *]Can we be saved if we go against God’s will and do not walk in the good works that God has prepared for us beforehand?
   *]If you have faith, but have not works, can your faith save you?
   *]Do you believe that God will give or deny eternal life to every man according to his works?
   I look forward to hearing from you.

1. 
   You might want to add is Faith greater than Love? If not, then why is Faith all you need?

 

[sandusky]

Randy Carson:

Apop, Sandusky, Linkowski, et al:

I have just a few basic questions:

1. Can you give me one verse of Scripture that states we are justified (or saved) by “faith alone”?
2. If a man does not care for his family, does that affect his salvation?
3. Can we be saved if we go against God’s will and do not walk in the good works that God has prepared for us beforehand?
4. If you have faith, but have not works, can your faith save you?
5. Do you believe that God will give or deny eternal life to every man according to his works?
   I look forward to hearing from you.

Randy, those are salvation by works questions.

You cut-and-pasted the wrong questions; those are for Catholics, not Protestants.

 

[apophasis]

Apop…

Alright… teach me. Ill listen… To me OSAS is nothing more than a Man Made tradition that developed 1500 years after the death of Christ and no record of its teaching can be found prior to Calvin. Every Christian believed that if you were not obedient you would loose the gift God gave you. But, I do not want to be accused of not searching for Truth as this is something all of us are commanded to do.

So, Let me ask you a question…

If I have what you call a saving faith, but I never do anything in the bible… IE feed the poor, Love thy neighbor, etc…

If I have a saving faith, will God allow me into heaven?

Please, just Yes or No.

No explanation yet… just yes or no

In Christ

I will answer your question in a “yes” or “no” format after you answer my questions in post #124. You told me to ask questions and I did - and then you completely avoided them.

Above you say, “teach me, I’ll listen” and then rather than “listen” you commence to telling me your opinion of the “man made tradition.” You’re inconsistent in what you say and do.

 

[apophasis]

No, our good works would be nothing without the Sacrifice of the Cross. The Mosaic Covenant proved that. But, Christ, who asked us to “Be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect”, certainly wishes us to do good for others, or else we wouldn’t be offered the rewards in heaven.

Our Good Works, for which we are made, would be nothing though, without the Saving Grace of Christ.

Yes, I totally grasp what you’re saying. But it’s those “good works” of yours that you believe will ultimately determine your future salvation. Everything hinges on those “good works” of yours.

 

[sandusky]

jack hawkins:

To add my hap’orth to an already well done topic, having been on “both sides” like other people here: to say that one you’ve been saved that you don’t have to do anything else seems clearly wrong - faith without works is dead I’m sure we can all agree.

Jack, that is a strawman argument.

Go back and read any of my posts, or any of Apophasis’ posts; you will clearly find us speaking of the necessity of works.

We have a different view of works—ours do not contribute to our salvation in any way.

Some protestants do not believe one must work, but that one can live a life of complete freedom with respect to licentiousness, but they are wrong.

All of the hoopla on this thread is from the Anti-Protestants who cannot comprehend how someone such as Linkowski, and myself, could ever leave the Catholic Church. It’s good to give them something to think about.

Linkowski, you did the right thing.

Luke 17:7-10

“Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come immediately and sit down to eat’?

“But will he not say to him, ‘Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink’?

“He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he?

“So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’ ”Rewards are rooted in Grace…

Grace…

God’s Grace…

 

[jack_hawkins]

shall we carry on sinning that grace may abound? of course not - we are dead to sin, how can we carry on living in it any longer? (probably misquoted)

 

[heisenburg]

Sorry for missing your questions… It was unintentional. Please relax, there are countless posts, and hard to keep up with. Please dont automatically assume I am avoiding your question.

How does this correlate with what Jesus Himself said in Jn. 5:24?

I’ve answer this question before… It is not contradictory, If you believe him, that means you must do what he says… if you dont do what he says, then by your actions, you are saying you dont believe him… Christ also has a very specific name for people that ‘hear’ and believe’ but do not do… Hypocrites…

If you are not assured salvation UNTIL your “day of Judgment” then, ultimately, on what basis is your salvation determined? And how is it you can lose something you never really had?

first question. You can judge yourself based on how you live and compared to scripture if you are following the way Christ demands. Thats how you know…

question 2) There is an erroneous assumption that you cant be saved and then unsaved… I answer that question with yes, you can loose your salvation by not being obedient to Christ.

In regards to you believing I am not open to learning… i was merely letting you know my starting point… I apologize if it came out different

So, If you please

yes or no…

If I have a saving faith, but never do what is in the bible, will god let me into heaven.

In Christ

 

[sandusky]

shall we carry on sinning that grace may abound? of course not - we are dead to sin, how can we carry on living in it any longer? (probably misquoted)

Misquoted, and another strawman.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Jack, that is a strawman argument.

It’s not a straw man argument at all - hence my comment we can all agree on that. Please read it properly! I made that comment because I hvae comments to that effect from some in the Pentecostal Church. I then go on to note some examples from the Catholic Church that could be construed as salvation by works.
The Catholics probably think I am anti-Catholic (and I’m not) and the Protestants think I am anti-Protestant (and I’m not) so if I was a referee I’d know I was doing OK:thumbsup:

 

[Michael_Francis]

Apop, Sandusky, Linkowski, et al:

I have just a few basic questions:

1. 
   *]Can you give me one verse of Scripture that states we are justified (or saved) by “faith alone”?
   *]If a man does not care for his family, does that affect his salvation?
   *]Can we be saved if we go against God’s will and do not walk in the good works that God has prepared for us beforehand?
   *]If you have faith, but have not works, can your faith save you?
   *]Do you believe that God will give or deny eternal life to every man according to his works?
   I look forward to hearing from you.

1. Randy, those are salvation by works questions.
   
   You cut-and-pasted the wrong questions; those are for Catholics, not Protestants.

   I don’t think so.
   1. Since Catholics do not believe in Faith Alone in the context that you believe it then the question is appropriate to you and not to us.
   2. So…answer that. It’s a valid question. If you profess faith in Christ and yet do not take care of your family, what does the Word of God teach about that?
   3. Another valid question. Why are these questions for us who believe that these things tie into the faith that we believe and practice? The fact is that they are not…they are questions that when answered Biblically make it plain that the Catholic faith is correct and the opposing teaching is just some kind of Christianity Lite.
   4. James 2:14: What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
   5. Well? Do you? Can you support that from the New Testament?

 

[sandusky]

It’s not a straw man argument at all - hence my comment we can all agree on that. Please read it properly!

Sorry, Jack; the end didn’t compute.

 

[sandusky]

It’s not a straw man argument at all - hence my comment we can all agree on that. Please read it properly!
The Catholics probably think I am anti-Catholic (and I’m not) and the Protestants think I am anti-Protestant (and I’m not) so if I was a referee I’d know I was doing OK:thumbsup:

You actually sound level-headed; that’s why I posted what I did to you.

 

[jack_hawkins]

hee hee I try to be level-headed:thumbsup:
wish I succeeded all the time
in my opinion you do see people in the Catholic Church who believe that their works contribute to their salvation, whether consciously or subconsciously
on the other hand you see people in the Pentecostal who once they are saved think that they don’t need to run the race as it were, to quote Paul
if I, whilst doing my fast, look down on someone for not fasting, or feel superior for doing it, then the value has all gone
the value is on trusting God to get me through

 

[jack_hawkins]

Misquoted, and another strawman.

Hey, it was pretty close considering it was memory
from the Living Bible Romans 6:1,2
“Well then, shall we keep on sinning so that God can keep on showing us more and more kindness and forgiveness?
Of course not! Should we keep on sinning when we don’t have to?”
NASB
“What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?”

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes, I totally grasp what you’re saying. But it’s those “good works” of yours that you believe will ultimately determine your future salvation. Everything hinges on those “good works” of yours.

In your words, they do.

Everything hinges on Christ’s promises that there will be rewards stored up for me in heaven if I do the Father’s Will. What is the Father’s Will? We are created to do Good Works! He who eats my flesh will have eternal life. Unless one is born of water and spirit one will not enter into eternal life (paraphrasing). Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.

 

[NotWorthy]

You actually sound level-headed; that’s why I posted what I did to you.

As opposed to… Should I be offended here?

 

[NotWorthy]

1. 
   *]Can you give me one verse of Scripture that states we are justified (or saved) by “faith alone”?
   *]If a man does not care for his family, does that affect his salvation?
   *]Can we be saved if we go against God’s will and do not walk in the good works that God has prepared for us beforehand?
   *]If you have faith, but have not works, can your faith save you?
   *]Do you believe that God will give or deny eternal life to every man according to his works?

1. 
   

   Randy, those are salvation by works questions.
   
   You cut-and-pasted the wrong questions; those are for Catholics, not Protestants.

   OK,
   
   I don’t think so.
   1. Since Catholics do not believe in Faith Alone in the context that you believe it then the question is appropriate to you and not to us.
   2. So…answer that. It’s a valid question. If you profess faith in Christ and yet do not take care of your family, what does the Word of God teach about that?
   3. Another valid question. Why are these questions for us who believe that these things tie into the faith that we believe and practice? The fact is that they are not…they are questions that when answered Biblically make it plain that the Catholic faith is correct and the opposing teaching is just some kind of Christianity Lite.
   4. James 2:14: What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
   5. Well? Do you? Can you support that from the New Testament?