"Works" Salvation?

[sandusky]

jack Hawkins:

hee hee I try to be level-headed
wish I succeeded all the time
in my opinion you do see people in the Catholic Church who believe that their works contribute to their salvation, whether consciously or subconsciously
on the other hand you see people in the Pentecostal who once they are saved think that they don’t need to run the race as it were, to quote Paul
if I, whilst doing my fast, look down on someone for not fasting, or feel superior for doing it, then the value has all gone
the value is on trusting God to get me through

Hey, it was pretty close considering it was memory
from the Living Bible Romans 6:1,2
“Well then, shall we keep on sinning so that God can keep on showing us more and more kindness and forgiveness?
Of course not! Should we keep on sinning when we don’t have to?”
NASB
“What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?”

Yes, you were close.

How’s things in Birmingham?

My wife is a Brit, born in Daresalam, Tanganyika, now Tanzania.

Her Dad was from London, and Mum was from Yorkshire.

We’ve been married 24 years, and she still hasn’t become an official US citizen.

 

[sandusky]

OK,

I don’t think so.

1. Since Catholics do not believe in Faith Alone in the context that you believe it then the question is appropriate to you and not to us.
2. So…answer that. It’s a valid question. If you profess faith in Christ and yet do not take care of your family, what does the Word of God teach about that?
3. Another valid question. Why are these questions for us who believe that these things tie into the faith that we believe and practice? The fact is that they are not…they are questions that when answered Biblically make it plain that the Catholic faith is correct and the opposing teaching is just some kind of Christianity Lite.
4. James 2:14: What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
5. Well? Do you? Can you support that from the New Testament?

I’m busy talking to Jack Hawkins now.

Perhaps someone else here is interested in answering Randy’s absurdities.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Birmingham’s OK but I want to go back to my asylum seeker wife’s home country - Scotland:thumbsup:
She’s never got proper English citizenship either
24 years - good on you
we’ve been married 8 and a half years

 

[sandusky]

Birmingham’s OK but I want to go back to my asylum seeker wife’s home country - Scotland:thumbsup:
She’s never got proper English citizenship either
24 years - good on you
we’ve been married 8 and a half years

I have a friend here who left Birmingham 18 years ago and came over here.

He likes it here; he was back in England about two years ago, and said things there with respect to God are pretty dark, and with respect to Birmingham not good economically.

Scotland sounds good; hope it works out for you.

 

[NotWorthy]

I’m busy talking to Jack Hawkins now.

Perhaps someone else here is interested in answering Randy’s absurdities.

Man, I"m wounded. But from the looks of post 182, you are very busy…

 

[sandusky]

Man, I"m wounded. But from the looks of post 182, you are very busy…

For you I will answer them. But must away for a bit now.

 

[DLC]

Works do not bring salvation. We are not saved by keeping the 10 commandments. Please remember that Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death,
NASU

Sin brings death and death means separation. We are eternally separated from God because of our sin. God tells us that we are dead in our tespassess and sins. Now here is question for. How can a dead person make himself alive? He can’t. God must do this for him. That is why Christ died on the cross for us. He payed the sin/death penalty for us that we so richly deserved because of our sin. The very last thing that Christ stated on the cross was *“it is finished.” *This means that work of salvation is completed for us. Now, as a result, God can offer salvation as a free gift. He has already payed the sin price for us with the death of Christ on the cross. We accept this free gift through our faith in Chirst. When we do this we are saved forever. Read this passage over and over again and notice the negative relationship between faith and works for salvation in
verses 8,9.
Eph 2:1-10
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins , 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ ( by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works , so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
NASU

 

[guanophore]

We agree up to the point where you add works. Now Pax argues that these are the works of God in/through the believer and therefore are meritorious in respect to salvation. And every RC on this thread argues that apart from these divinely enabled, meritorious works one cannot be saved (future tense).

I think it is a simple semantics problem, apo. Would it make more sense to say that our works demonstrate God’s holiness growing in us that is based upon our salvation? Remember that, for Catholics, salvation is this process that begins at justification, and continues till the judgement. So the “works” or “deeds” occur after justification (the beginning moment of salvation) and are built upon that saving grace. Elsewhere in the thread it has been said that there is a “movement” from faith into works, but I don’t see it that way. The actions of the saved person are based upon the foundation of justification. Otherwise, they do not proceed from the gift of God. The merit has not to do with salvation, but rather, what one does with the gift. Salvation is God’s gift to us. How we receive it and give it back to Him is our return or thanks for the gift. If someone gave you something you said you really wanted, and you just stuck it in the garage or a closet, and never used it, how grateful would you think they would be?

Therefore RC’ism moves from the work of God strictly in the cross of Christ as the basis for a believer’s salvation to the works of God through the believer in this life as its (salvation’s) ultimate, divine criterion.

There you go with that “move” again! One cannot “move” from the foundation of justification by Christ and do ANYTHING of any use to God, self, or others. The “good works” that people see
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. "
Matt 5:16 are the natural expression of saving faith. They are evidence that one is continuing to progress in faith
“Paul and Barnabas, who spoke to them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.” Acts 13:43

Why would Paul urge them to continue if there was nothing they needed to do? You can call it a work, or you can call it trusting in God’s grace, but it is incumbent upon the believer to accomplish it.

Tragically, according to RC belief, Christ is no longer the object of salvation faith – which we agreed above was the primary work of God and the core of the gospel message.

Please show me where you have found this in Catholic teaching? Are you summarizing, again, the experience of an uneducated person who is unable to properly articulate the faith?

We prevent estrangement from God by participating in His saving act on the cross, and CONTINUING in that grace.

Col 1:21-23

21 And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard,

 

[guanophore]

You’re welcome. But I did in my previous post:

You move from Christ’s finished, redemptive work on the cross to your works during this life. I think dcdurel in post # 146 expressed it all quite well - you must merit in this life the salvation Christ “earned.” Your whole salvation hinges on these so-called divinely, enabled, meritorioius works.

Hence, Christ and His work on the cross moves to the background and your meritorious works to the foreground.

Who is the “you” that is being addressed here? Are you quoting a Catholic you know who doesn’t understand his own Church’s teaching?

I will go back and look at the post, but I think what you are getting stuck on is the teaching that we must “continue in the faith”. We believe that it is necessary to “add”.

2 Peter 1:4-11
…because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature. 5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; 11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Peter here teaches that we are to be “in growth”, and that this growth is based upon the saving work of Christ. We are to be fruitful and effective for Christ, and if we lack these “works” (virtue,knowledge, self control, steadfastness, brotherly affection and love) we are blind and short sighted and have forgotten that (we) are cleansed of (our) old sins. . The cleansing has already occurred, and we must be in rememberance of it, and live it out faithfully so that we don’t fall

 

[Randy_Carson]

Randy, those are salvation by works questions.

You cut-and-pasted the wrong questions; those are for Catholics, not Protestants.

It’s an open book test, Sandy.

What does the Bible say about each of those questions?

Take your time…you don’t want to fail this test!

 

[Mannyfit75]

To me, this argument goes round and round without settlement too many times. The problem is that it is based on assumptions concerning what man is and what God expects out of man. IF man is so fallen that he cannot possibly do any good, any time, for any reason, absolutely cannot cooperate, even redeemed, with God, being the “pile of dung” that Protestants are so fond of calling ourselves (and then we grouse about Catholics being uncharitable!), it is one thing. Free ride. God gives us a free pass. We don’t have to do nothing. No how. No way.

But IF man is fallen in a way that God can and will rebuild him - if he still bears the image of God, and is actually capable of good, God may tell him to hoof it on his own.

Both these extremes are errors. Man is not so totally shattered that in essence he no longer bears the image of God. The sinful nature has been added on - it is not essential to his identity but rather an accretion.

God gives us grace, yes. Faith is a gift, yes. If we will to follow God, that, too is a gift. Monergism is correct, but not the full picture: God calls us also to learn to cooperate, as sons, not as slaves. He is a God of freedom, not one returning us to slavery. There is more freedom in His will than there is bondage in slavery.

In this there is sanity. There is no sanity in antinomialism, in a free ticket that I need not respond to. If God did it all, then He would not have bothered to have Paul, for eample, tell us what to do in his letters, because obedience would be automatic. Jesus told us to abide in Him.

God desires all to be saved. Not all come to repentence. If God did everything, then all would be saved. Faith itself is a gift. Does he give it to everyone? Seemingly only to some - the elect. Do some, believing, fall away? We have all seen this happen. Surely there is some sort of cooperation involved.

Yes, I agree. Links is the one who is having issue with the Catholic Church as well as sandusky.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’m busy talking to Jack Hawkins now.

Perhaps someone else here is interested in answering Randy’s absurdities.

Wow.

With the exception of question #1, every question is taken from the Word of God.

And our “Bible Christian” friend calls them “absurdities”.

That’s certainly one way to duck the issue, I guess.

 

[jack_hawkins]

I have a friend here who left Birmingham 18 years ago and came over here.

He likes it here; he was back in England about two years ago, and said things there with respect to God are pretty dark, and with respect to Birmingham not good economically.

Scotland sounds good; hope it works out for you.

I went to a medical course in Baltimore once (R.Adams Cowley Shock Trauma) - inner-city Baltimore is a bit hairy, saw people selling crack openly! But Birmingham is getting just as bad, gun crime is rising and the Muslim population here is much more militant than it seems to be in the US. The area I am in is particularly bad. The current government is certainly attacking Christian institutions despite Tony Blair being avowedly Christian - Catholic adoption agancies will be forced to foster out to gay couples or lose funding
Here’s to buying my own Hebridean Island and founding a Christian Republic!

 

[Linkowski]

Excerpt from 1345 in the CCC:

“Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, **so as to obtain **eternal salvation.”

I think we can read this and say that it does communicate the idea that the commandments are to be followed “so as to obtain” salvation (as a means of)…BUT…I am faithful to the commandments because I am already saved…not to be saved. That is the main difference. (Now, am I perfect??? Absolutely not! Do I want to be perfect - absolutely).

Keeping the commandments is not a means of salvation…it is an evidence as presented in 1 John…

1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

It says - we know that we are His if we observe His commandments. Not…we will be His if we keep His commandments. It is an evidence of salvation - not a means of salvation. For…

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Again - the main purpose of the law is to create repentance in the heart of the sinner and a feeling of a need to turn to Christ as Lord and Savior. God is looking for this person…

Mt 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

And God will send the preacher with the message of the gospel (after first presenting the law to bring about the knowledge of sin), that elect one will repent, and turn to Christ as Lord and Savior - all the work of God.

Paragraph 1345 contains language that confuses one to make them believe that they must keep the commandments as a means of salvation - and this makes the cross of Christ of none effect.

 

[sandusky]

Randy Carson:

Can you give me one verse of Scripture that states we are justified (or saved) by “faith alone”?

Rom 1:17
Randy Carson:

If a man does not care for his family, does that affect his salvation?

Describe this man: Regenerate new creation, or unregenerate pagan?
Randy Carson:

Can we be saved if we go against God’s will and do not walk in the good works that God has prepared for us beforehand?

There is an underlying false assumption in that question: we can go against God’s will; also, can you give me God’s detailed list of works prepared beforehand for Randy Carson?
Randy Carson:

If you have faith, but have not works, can your faith save you?

According to James, if you don’t exhibit works, you have no faith.
Randy Carson:

Do you believe that God will give or deny eternal life to every man according to his works?

Salvation is not on the basis of works.

 

[sandusky]

I went to a medical course in Baltimore once (R.Adams Cowley Shock Trauma) - inner-city Baltimore is a bit hairy, saw people selling crack openly! But Birmingham is getting just as bad, gun crime is rising and the Muslim population here is much more militant than it seems to be in the US. The area I am in is particularly bad. The current government is certainly attacking Christian institutions despite Tony Blair being avowedly Christian - Catholic adoption agancies will be forced to foster out to gay couples or lose funding
Here’s to buying my own Hebridean Island and founding a Christian Republic!

The USA isn’t like it was when I was a kid; if I didn’t know better, I’d swear I moved somewhere else in the last 20 years, and have forgotten that I had done so.

I’ll pray that you get that.

 

[wanner47]

Catholic.com says it better than I can.

The Protestant misunderstanding of justification lies in its claim that justification is merely a forensic (i.e., purely declaratory) legal declaration by God that the sinner is now “justified.” If you “accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior,” he declares you justified, though he doesn’t really make you justified or sanctified; your soul is in the same state as it was before; but you’re eligible for heaven.

A person is expected thereafter to undergo sanctification (don’t make the mistake of thinking Protestants say sanctification is unimportant), but the degree of sanctification achieved is, ultimately, immaterial to the question of whether you’ll get to heaven. You will, since you’re justified; and justification as a purely legal declaration is what counts. Unfortunately, this scheme is a legal fiction. It amounts to God telling an untruth by saying the sinner has been justified, while all along he knows that the sinner is not really justified, but is only covered under the “cloak” of Christ’s righteousness. But, what God declares, he does. “o shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it” (Is. 55:11). So, when God declares you justified, he makes you justified. Any justification that is not woven together with sanctification is no justification at all.

The Bible’s teaching on justification is much more nuanced. Paul indicates that there is a real transformation which occurs in justification, that it is not just a change in legal status. This is seen, for example, in Romans 6:7, which every standard translation—Protestant ones included—renders as “For he who has died is freed from sin” (or a close variant).

**Paul is obviously speaking about being freed from sin in an experiential sense, for this is the passage where he is at pains to stress the fact that we have made a decisive break with sin that must be reflected in our behavior: “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?” (Rom. 6:1-2). “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God as men who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness” (6:12-13). **
The context here is what Protestants call sanctification, the process of being made holy. Sanctification is the sense in which we are said to be “freed from sin” in this passage. Yet in the Greek text, what is actually said is “he who has died has been justified from sin.” The term in Greek (dikaioo) is the word for being justified, yet the context indicates sanctification, which is why every standard translation renders the word “freed” rather than “justified.” This shows that, in Paul’s mind, justification involves a real transformation, a real, experiential freeing from sin, not just a change of legal status. And it shows that, the way he uses terms, there is not the rigid wall between justification and sanctification that Protestants imagine.

**According to Scripture, sanctification and justification aren’t just one-time events, but are ongoing processes in the life of the believer. Both can be spoken of as past-time events, as Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 6:11: “But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” **Sanctification is also a present, ongoing process, as the author of Hebrews notes: “For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified” (Heb. 10:14). In regard to justification also being an on-going process, compare Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6 with both Hebrews 11:8; Genesis 12:1-4 and James 2:21-23; Genesis 22:1-18. In these passages, Abraham’s justification is advanced on three separate occasions.

to be continued…

source

 

[wanner47]

(continued from previous post)

Can Justification Be Lost?

Most Fundamentalists go on to say that losing ground in the sanctification battle won’t jeopardize your justification. You might sin worse than you did before “getting saved,” but you’ll enter heaven anyway, because you can’t undo your justification, which has nothing to do with whether you have supernatural life in your soul.

Calvin taught the absolute impossibility of losing justification. Luther said it could be lost only through the sin of unbelief; that is, by undoing the act of faith and rejecting Christ; but not by what Catholics call mortal sins.

Catholics see it differently. If you sin grievously, the supernatural life in your soul disappears, since it can’t co-exist with serious sin. You then cease to be justified. If you were to die while unjustified, you’d go to hell. But you can become re-justified by having the supernatural life renewed in your soul, and you can do that by responding to the actual graces God sends you.

Acting on Actual Graces

He sends you an actual grace, say, in the form of a nagging voice that whispers, “You need to repent! Go to confession!” You do, your sins are forgiven, you’re reconciled to God, and you have supernatural life again (John 20:21–23). Or you say to yourself, “Maybe tomorrow,” and that particular supernatural impulse, that actual grace, passes you by. But another is always on the way, God never abandoning us to our own stupidity (1 Tim. 2:4).

Once you have supernatural life, once sanctifying grace is in your soul, you can increase it by every supernaturally good action you do: receiving Communion, saying prayers, performing the corporal works of mercy. Is it worth increasing sanctifying grace once you have it; isn’t the minimum enough? Yes and no. It’s enough to get you into heaven, but it may not be enough to sustain itself. It’s easy to fall from grace, as you know. The more solidly you’re wed to sanctifying grace, the more likely you can withstand temptations.

And if you do that, you maintain sanctifying grace. In other words, once you achieve the supernatural life, you don’t want to take it easy. The minimum isn’t good enough because it’s easy to lose the minimum. We must continually seek God’s grace, continually respond to the actual graces God is working within us, inclining us to turn to him and do good. **This is what Paul discusses when he instructs us: “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Do all things without grumbling or questioning, that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain” (Phil. 2:12–16). **

 

[Truthstalker]

Excerpt from 1345 in the CCC:

“Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, **so as to obtain **eternal salvation.”

I think we can read this and say that it does communicate the idea that the commandments are to be followed “so as to obtain” salvation (as a means of)…BUT…I am faithful to the commandments because I am already saved…not to be saved. That is the main difference. (Now, am I perfect??? Absolutely not! Do I want to be perfect - absolutely).

Keeping the commandments is not a means of salvation…it is an evidence as presented in 1 John…

1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

It says - we know that we are His if we observe His commandments. Not…we will be His if we keep His commandments. It is an evidence of salvation - not a means of salvation. For…

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Again - the main purpose of the law is to create repentance in the heart of the sinner and a feeling of a need to turn to Christ as Lord and Savior. God is looking for this person…

Mt 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

And God will send the preacher with the message of the gospel (after first presenting the law to bring about the knowledge of sin), that elect one will repent, and turn to Christ as Lord and Savior - all the work of God.

Paragraph 1345 contains language that confuses one to make them believe that they must keep the commandments as a means of salvation - and this makes the cross of Christ of none effect.

Link:

This was ALL answered earlier in the thread. You even admitted you had taken it out of context. Now you are saying the same thing over again after it seemed you had realized your mistake.
,

 

[Truthstalker]

What you are describing is more or less semi-pelagianism.

I dispute that.

Let me see your definition of Sem-Pelagianism, from an authoritative source. Then show how my post is semi-Pelagian.