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Robert_Bay
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MODERATOR NOTICE
All posts here are to be charitable
Please discuss the issues, not each other
All posts here are to be charitable
Please discuss the issues, not each other
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SuperLuigi
Guest
Ah, yes. The GOP is looking out for my grandkids “best interest” yet again.
Why would anyone expect total strangers in the US federal government to care about their kids and families?
Conservatives don’t expect the GOP to come riding the rescue.
And I’m sure the Democrats care oh sooooooooo much, what with using the force of government to take from others instead of their own private stockpiles.
Gee, that’s so generous and brave of them!
Look at the prices of renewable energy that are implemented due largely to “man-made climate change.”I’ll just tell 'em "Yeah, they trashed your future, but hey, it was great for business!
This thread seems to be devolving into angry excuses to support the anti-Catholic Democrat Party.
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SuperLuigi
Guest
Of course! When the man-made climate hoaxes suffocates the poor economically, why, it’s the nanny state to the rescue!
“Another government program to fix a government program that creates problems,” as Rush would say.
:doh2: :whacky:
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SuperLuigi
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freeRadical
Guest
I really would like to see your source for this claim.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
I don’t dispute that EVs are (or could be) cheaper to maintain. But I must disabuse you of the notion that the auto industry is against long lasting, easy to maintain products. The reputation of an auto maker is their most valuable asset. The auto makers do not profit from their service divisions as much as they profit from sales. If a Ford is expensive to maintain, chances are my next car will be something else besides a Ford. It is very hard to rebuild a damaged reputation. There is no conceivable benefit to an auto maker for deliberately making cars problematic to maintain.
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Theo520
Guest
I don’t think you comprehend this.House Directs Pentagon To Ignore Climate Change
huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/23/pentagon-climate-change_n_5382067.html
Ah, yes. The GOP is looking out for my grandkids “best interest” yet again.
I’ll just tell 'em "Yeah, they trashed your future, but hey, it was great for business!
The instructions from congress are akin to parents telling their kids they can’t spend (waste) their allowance on candy, video games or cigarettes.
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lynnvinc
Guest
Some people I knew who converted ICE cars to EV told me, and it was in a book I no longer have “Why Wait for Detroit?” and is it in the film WHO KILLED THE ELECTRIC CAR. I’m sure you may be able to find some other better sources.
I think it is fairly simple. There is a whole lot less to go wrong, and pure EVs don’t need oil changes and tune-ups, etc. I’m not sure about the Volt, which does have a gasoline back-up motor to keep the battery charged when the charge gets down to 20%. So far so good. with ours)
Here’s something -“Study: EVs 35% Cheaper To Maintain Than Comparable Cars” at gas2.org/2012/12/24/study-evs-35-cheaper-to-maintain-than-comparable-cars/
It mentions that the study excludes replacing the battery pack, but I know our Volt battery is designed for the lifetime of the car, so that probably isn’t a huge issue.
Re running costs of an EV, we are averaging about 35+ miles per 9.6 kwh charge (we use the AC a lot since it is above 90F nearly every day). Since we pay $0.128 per KWH (100% wind & solar), that comes to $1.23 per 35 miles (without the AC we get about 40 miles per electrical charge).
I think an ICE car that gets 35 mpg would be paying over $3 for those 35 miles. As for when the Volt switches over to gasoline (about 20% of our driving), it gets about 40+ mpg, so the cost for that is not very high either.
If one can afford the upfront cost or can get a loan, the EV or Volt would be a wise choice. Downside considerations – pure EVs have limited range per charge…I think some 70 to 100 miles; and the Volt can only seat 4 people. Upside considerations – grrrreat torque – move over jack rabbit, we’re talking going into warp speed where you get thrust back in your seat and the scenery outside becomes a blur. Don’t tell my husband that I sometimes drive that way…it has actually helped me avoid an accident.
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Ender
Guest
GM’s warranty on the Volt battery system is 8yrs/100,000 miles. Hopefully yours will fail in that time and you can get GM to replace it for free, because if you have to pay for it it’s going to be expensive. For example, Tesla is offering its customers the option of paying a non-refundable $12,000 to get a “free” battery after seven years.
It is, however, an impressive warranty, although GM’s warranty hand was forced due to the fact that the EPA and California Air Resources Board consider the battery to be part of the car’s emissions control system because it has an on-board combustion engine. Accordingly, it falls under the same regulations that require other emissions control equipment (e.g. catalytic converter) to have an eight year warranty. It will also be interesting to see how the mileage drops off as the battery ages.
Ender
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styrgwillidar
Guest
Actually, based on real world experience there was a huge shift in ease of maintenance when warranties started getting extended beyond one year. This also had the additional affect of making vehicles cheaper to maintain since the major cost of the vast majority of repairs is labor. Two of my sisters had chevrolet chevette’s back in the day. The earlier one with a one year manufacturer’s warranty had an air cleaner filter embedded in the housing which had to be replaced as a unit, the routing of all the lines for A/C, electrical, vaccum were over the top of the engine. It was a nightmare to work on anything. The other one was about 3 years newer after chevy started extending their warranties to compete with Chrysler and was far easier to work on, and the air filter went back to being a paper element you could remove and replace. So, there is a benefit since dealers make a lot of money off of repairs-- but-- that also proves your point
In a competitive market, the consumer will take ease/cost of maintenance into consideration. (which is why I’ll never own a BMW/Mercedes/Audi, nice cars but the maintenance costs are exorbitant when the warranty expires) With the number of manufacturers out there right now and Kia/Hyndai having 10 year warranties, Ford/GM would certainly lose market share if their maintenance costs were significantly higher than their competition.
Anybody know if the warranty on the batter for EVs is like the warranty for tires/battery and some other normal wear components of a standard vehicle where they are pro-rated based on life/mileage of the vehicle? That is, if it fails at 5 years of a projected 10 year life they’ll pay for half vice the entire battery?
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styrgwillidar
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styrgwillidar
Guest
Note, the baseline assumption of the study is that you only keep a car for 8 years. Which avoids the major cost one can expect from an EV- the battery pack. If you’re someone like me who does have all the routine maintenance performed on your vehicle, and will drive it for longer than 8 years (last vehicle was 14 years/current is 12 and counting) than the study doesn’t necessarily apply-- even if it is applicable for the majority.
Now, an interesting thing will be resale value of an EV at the projected end of battery life compared to a gas-powered vehicle.
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lynnvinc
Guest
What my friends at the Fox Valley Electric Vehicle Association meant was that in general EVs are cheaper to maintain than ICE cars because they don’t need oil changes and tune-ups and there’s less to go wrong.
I do agree ICE cars have come a long way since back in the day (60s, 70s) when mine would often break down on the freeway, etc. I think it was also due to Japanese cars being better made with lower maintenance and the 70s oil crunch when smaller cars became more popular. The US auto industry was caught off-guard and had to catch up, both in making smaller, more efficient cars, and ones that didn’t break down so much.
RE the Volt battery, it is a single battery that extends in a T-shape from the trunk down to the gear shift in the front. It does have an 8-year/100,000 mile warranty, and I asked about that. The man told me it was designed for the lifetime of the car, for 200,000 miles.
I have been a bit concerned that within a few years they’ll come out with some better battery that get more miles per charge, and our battery will decrease in efficiency. After 2.5 years so far so good; we haven’t noticed any decrease in efficiency, but I think it is expected to decrease about 1 or 2% per year. I’m thinking maybe after some 10 or so years (if I’m still alive) they may come out with a “reconditioning” option to bring the battery into line with newer developments and better miles per charge. We only drive about 5,000-6,000 miles a year, so the warranty will run out well before we reach 100,000 miles (which would be in about 17-20 years).
For other EVs, esp EV club conversions, the battery pack replacement is the single costliest repair, but I think even then it may be cheaper. We used to spend a pretty penny on ICE repairs; it wasn’t uncommon for us to spend over $1000 a year, plus the running costs are higher with ICEs. One year I spent more than I earned teaching part-time at a university in the next town.
Since we drive less, I always felt it was not worth it financially and not much worth it environmentally to buy a Prius, so we’ve been getting by with old cheap cars. I waited for the EVs to come out, and I thought it was not worth it financially, only environmentally, bec we plug into our 100% wind and solar electricity. However, we are finding that we are also saving money with the Volt (over the Ford Taurus my husband wanted to buy), and after some years the savings will make up the difference in costs. Who knew?
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freeRadical
Guest
So, basically all you have is anecdotal evidence.Some people I knew who converted ICE cars to EV told me, and it was in a book I no longer have “Why Wait for Detroit?” and is it in the film WHO KILLED THE ELECTRIC CAR. I’m sure you may be able to find some other better sources.
I think it is fairly simple. There is a whole lot less to go wrong, and pure EVs don’t need oil changes and tune-ups, etc. I’m not sure about the Volt, which does have a gasoline back-up motor to keep the battery charged when the charge gets down to 20%. So far so good. with ours)
Here’s something -“Study: EVs 35% Cheaper To Maintain Than Comparable Cars” at gas2.org/2012/12/24/study-evs-35-cheaper-to-maintain-than-comparable-cars/
It mentions that the study excludes replacing the battery pack, but I know our Volt battery is designed for the lifetime of the car, so that probably isn’t a huge issue.
Re running costs of an EV, we are averaging about 35+ miles per 9.6 kwh charge (we use the AC a lot since it is above 90F nearly every day). Since we pay $0.128 per KWH (100% wind & solar), that comes to $1.23 per 35 miles (without the AC we get about 40 miles per electrical charge).
I think an ICE car that gets 35 mpg would be paying over $3 for those 35 miles. As for when the Volt switches over to gasoline (about 20% of our driving), it gets about 40+ mpg, so the cost for that is not very high either.
If one can afford the upfront cost or can get a loan, the EV or Volt would be a wise choice. Downside considerations – pure EVs have limited range per charge…I think some 70 to 100 miles; and the Volt can only seat 4 people. Upside considerations – grrrreat torque – move over jack rabbit, we’re talking going into warp speed where you get thrust back in your seat and the scenery outside becomes a blur. Don’t tell my husband that I sometimes drive that way…it has actually helped me avoid an accident.
theguardian.com/environment/2011/sep/06/electric-cars-cheaper-2030
Of course they left out the cost of the battery, that is the most expensive part to replace. I highly doubt your battery will last the life of your car.
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styrgwillidar
Guest
Depends on the definition of ‘life of your car’. If you use the average that people hold onto a car-- probably works. If you define ‘life of your car’ by the outliers like myself, or until the car is scrapped after going through numerous owners, it probably won’t. Again, this gets into what the re-sale value of a ~6 or 7 year old EV will be with the prospective buyer knowing they’re looking at a very major cost in the near future.
ETA: But this is where analysis gets tricky for the overall life-cycle energy use for a vehicle per mile driven taking into account manufacture to scrap. A lot of ifs here… if the cost to replace a battery remains at ~10K, how many people will be willing to buy a ~6 year old vehicle and do the replacement? Will these EVs be in the scrapyard vice on the road as the batteries expire? Harder to believe they’ll be on the road ~15 to 20 years like many gas powered vehicles. I mentioned above that I kept my last car for 14 years, had no problem selling it and I’ve seen that it is still on the road at 26yrs. (Current owner did have the engine rebuilt at ~20 yrs, but that was a significantly lower cost than an EV battery and got 6 yrs of driving out of a 14yr old car before needing the rebuild). So all the manufacturing energy cost are spread out over a much longer period/number of miles.
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Erich
Guest
My current vehicle is 10 years old / 155,000 miles and counting. My previous vehicle was purchased way back when my wife was pregnant with our older son (now 26); he had actually learned to drive that vehicle before it “inexplicably” died after “only” 304,000 miles (original engine, clutch replaced once, water pump replaced twice).
So… count me among those who drive their vehicles for longer than 8 years.
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Monkey1976
Guest
Based on the warranty, let’s say that the battery lasts the full 8 years, and then the owner has the choice of either paying up to $34,000 for a new battery to be installed or buying a new vehicle for about the same price. Based on the manufacturing process required for these batteries, it has been calculated that the fabrication of just one of them is equivalent to running a well-maintained full-size SUV for 20 years. From that math, in a 20-year span, I could either drive an SUV which can refuel to a range of nearly 400 miles in less than 5 minutes or I could drive a vehicle that will create the equivalent environmental damage of driving that SUV for 50 years (even if I never actually drove the EV) and wait at least 10 HOURS for the battery to charge to its full range of about 40 miles (before it has to use the onboard gasoline-powered generator).
Until they are able to manufacture an EV without using insanely dangerous and destructive methods (I’m looking at you, foamed nickel), with a range truly equivalent to a modern gasoline or diesel car (~400 miles between refill/charge), and with the ability to fully recharge in the same timeframe it takes to fill a fuel tank (<5 minutes), they’re never going to be anything but an accessory to show off how environmentally conscious one wants to appear to be.
That said, fuel-cell technology could meet these requirements. The drawback is that instead of being insanely dangerous to manufacture, they’re insanely expensive. But, a refill of hydrogen takes <5 minutes, the range from a single tank is in the area of 200-300 miles right now (and improving), and one can drink the exhaust. Too bad none are sold in the US.
Until they are able to manufacture an EV without using insanely dangerous and destructive methods (I’m looking at you, foamed nickel), with a range truly equivalent to a modern gasoline or diesel car (~400 miles between refill/charge), and with the ability to fully recharge in the same timeframe it takes to fill a fuel tank (<5 minutes), they’re never going to be anything but an accessory to show off how environmentally conscious one wants to appear to be.
That said, fuel-cell technology could meet these requirements. The drawback is that instead of being insanely dangerous to manufacture, they’re insanely expensive. But, a refill of hydrogen takes <5 minutes, the range from a single tank is in the area of 200-300 miles right now (and improving), and one can drink the exhaust. Too bad none are sold in the US.
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ucfengr
Guest
Can’t tow an RV or a boat with an electric car either.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Likely those who promote the MMGW theory don’t want you to have an RV or boat, either one, so they don’t care whether an electric car can tow them.
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estesbob
Guest
And I suspect they don’t want us to have one either.
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