Worship of Mary?

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what i want to know is.

was jesus just a man, human creature

is he 50 percent man, 50 percent divine/god?
 
No catholic who knows anything about the catholic faith has ever worshiped a religious image. Whether its burning a candle, praying before a statue, or placing flowers.👍
 
MaryIrene said:
to jpink1019: Jesus is our Intercessor, He said to come unto Me. No where in the bible does it say to ask Mary for anything or to pray to her. The woman in Rev chp 12 is symbolic of Israel, the twelve stars are the 12 tribes of Israel. the birth pains is the suffering Israel went through while patiently waiting for Jesus to be born as told in the OT. they went through hell while waiting for their Savior to arrive. I was catholic but I left the church bcuz of all the idlolatry involved. I go to Jesus and him only, He has always been there for me and always will. the title “queen of heaven” is found in the book of Jeremiah. this queen of heaven is a goddess who promoted sexual pleasure, and the RCC has the nerve to call Mary the queen of heaven. the RCC has convinced you just like it convinced me at one time that it is ok to pray to Mary and it isn’t, it is idolatry. the RCC doesn’t see it this way bcuz they have been praying to her for so long that they just blindly do it. go to Jesus let Him give you rest and peace and forgiveness, He won’t turn you away. He hears and answers all prayers.
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First, proselytizing like this is against the rules here at CAF, so be mindful of getting preachy.

Second, please tell me where in the bible it says that Jesus is the only (ONLY) intercessor.

Third, please provide evidence of idolatry in the Catholic Church.

Fourth, please explain why Mary and a pagan deity sharing a title is a bad thing. I share a title with Barack Obama (Mr.), but we are not the same person, nor am I or he associated with the other as a result. Why make the assumption in this case only?

Fifth, if it is true that the CC just blindly does it because they’ve done it for so long and don’t even think about it anymore, can you explain all of the converts (millions each year) whose biggest obstacle to converting is prayer to Mary, yet through much prayer to God and study over months or even years, they concluded that it was ok. That doesn’t sound like just blindly doing it to me.
 
A simple answer, Catholics don’t worship mother Mary.They just venerate her being the mother of the most high.They give the respect which Archangel Gabriel gave her.(Luke 1:28).Regarding statutes,there are so many statues of Karl Marx around does it mean that ‘they’ worship him?Besides****, we can ask for intercessory prayer to anybody.
 
MaryIrene said:
to jpink1019: Jesus is our Intercessor, He said to come unto Me. No where in the bible does it say to ask Mary for anything or to pray to her.
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Why is it, MaryIrene, that you can ask someone to pray for you on your church’s prayer chain, but that you cannot do the same thing with Mary?
 
MaryIrene said:
the title “queen of heaven” is found in the book of Jeremiah. this queen of heaven is a goddess who promoted sexual pleasure, and the RCC has the nerve to call Mary the queen of heaven.
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I think you believe this because you have not read the Bible in its entirety, MaryIrene, and are only familiar with the passages that your pastor has preached on.

You may not have read this passage in 1 Corinthians that talks about how we are all kings?

You are already filled, you have already become rich, you have become kings without us- 1 Cor 4:8

Why do we get to be kings, but you do not allow Mary to be a queen?
the RCC has convinced you just like it convinced me at one time that it is ok to pray to Mary and it isn’t, it is idolatry. the RCC doesn’t see it this way bcuz they have been praying to her for so long that they just blindly do it.
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This part, at least, you have correct, MaryIrene. The Catholic Church has indeed been praying to Mary for a very, very long time. Since the first days of Christianity. It was only after 1600 years that men decided to divorce themselves from the Faith given, once for all, by the Apostles, and declare that praying to Mary was wrong.

We have, indeed, been doing this “for so long.”
 
PRmerger said:
One action that would be construed as worship is starting your own religion to pray to that entity. That would include proclaiming a creed of what one believes about this entity, having a code of behavior that this entity desires, and having a cult of rituals designed to pray to this entity.
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BTW, thanks for answering my questions. You’ve been awesome.👍 Anyway, as I was thinking about this, it does seem easy to mistake the hyper-dulia of Mary for latria. From common Protestant misconceptions, 1. Catholics “added” things to Christianity about Mary and therefore have constructed a new religion that includes praying to Mary. 2. Certain beliefs about Mary have been codified into dogma which taken together can be said to be Marian creeds. 3. Mary of course desires us to act righteously. 4. The Rosary is very much a ritual for praying to Mary. Of course these are misconception about what the Church actually believes about Mary. I merely say all this to show that it would be quite easy to mistake hyper-dulia for latria.
 
Taestron said:
BTW, thanks for answering my questions. You’ve been awesome.👍
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Aw, p-shaw! :pshaw:
Anyway, as I was thinking about this, it does seem easy to mistake the hyper-dulia of Mary for latria. From common Protestant misconceptions, 1. Catholics “added” things to Christianity about Mary and therefore have constructed a new religion that includes praying to Mary. 2. Certain beliefs about Mary have been codified into dogma which taken together can be said to be Marian creeds. 3. Mary of course desires us to act righteously. 4. The Rosary is very much a ritual for praying to Mary. Of course these are misconception about what the Church actually believes about Mary. I merely say all this to show that it would be quite easy to mistake hyper-dulia for latria.
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My only response is to post again this picture:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Do you believe that these Christians ought not be doing this for it does seem easy to mistake what they’re doing as worshiping something that’s not God?
 
Taestron said:
The Rosary is very much a ritual for praying to Mary
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Perhaps you are not familiar with the Rosary, else you would not say that.

Firstly, you do know that we are reciting words from the Gospel, when we pray the Rosary, yes?

And we meditate upon the mysteries of the Rosary–which are events in the Gospel. In fact, one of our popes said “The Rosary is the compendium of the entire Gospel”.
 
PRmerger said:
Perhaps you are not familiar with the Rosary, else you would not say that.

Firstly, you do know that we are reciting words from the Gospel, when we pray the Rosary, yes?

And we meditate upon the mysteries of the Rosary–which are events in the Gospel. In fact, one of our popes said “The Rosary is the compendium of the entire Gospel”.
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Of course, I was misrepresenting the beliefs of the Church, but I was only doing so with what I have actually have heard done. I was not actually saying we should not honor Mary to the full extent she deserves, but merely stating that it is very easy for Protestants to confuse hyper-dulia with latria. And as such, just wanted to caution that there will always be confused Protestants. So thank you in advance for your continuing patience.

Edit: BTW, what is that picture? I couldn’t quite figure it out.
 
Taestron said:
Edit: BTW, what is that picture? I couldn’t quite figure it out.
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It’s an altar call.

Someone could look at that and conclude that people are bowing to a chair, a stage, a box of kleenex. And conclude that these people are not worshipping God but rather bowing down in idolatry.
 
PRmerger said:
It’s an altar call.

Someone could look at that and conclude that people are bowing to a chair, a stage, a box of kleenex. And conclude that these people are not worshipping God but rather bowing down in idolatry.
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Ah ok. Well if there was a cross or communion table, I must assume that it is before this which they are bowing. If not… well I would be vary curious as to why it is called an “altar.” Interesting how some names persist even though the theology behind it is most likely lost.

Perhaps a good way of going about this debate is to make the preposition issue (like the one I fell victim to before) explicit. As a Protestant, it would be a shame for me to come in and tell you that you are actually presenting worship to Mary, just as it would be disingenuous for you to come in to an altar call and say we are bowing to a box of kleenex. But perhaps if the preposition is that unclear, it might become necessary to change the action somewhat. I have heard prayers to certain saints that I could have sworn were idolatrous if I didn’t know any better.
 
Farsight001 said:
Actually, the first commandment technically says to have no other gods BEFORE him, not to have no other gods period. It’s a command to place him first, not to deny the very existence of other deities. (we have scripture verses for that, of course, but this commandment is not one of them)
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Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Deu 5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

“no”, “none”?

Would someone educate me of the meaning of these words and the verses, please…
 
The answer is flat and simple: NO.

One has to understand worship (latria), honor (dulia) and greatest honor (hyperdulia).

The issue stems from the fact that non-Catholics typically miss the point of the word “latria” or worship. For Catholics, a “worship” is not true worship if there is no “blood-sacrifice”. Thus, one would read very similar forms of worship with which God forbids for the (old) people of Israel. Our highest form of worship is offering the greatest gift back to God: God himself, the Body and Blood of Jesus.

If any Catholic does offer the Body and Blood of Jesus to Mary, then it is certain that that’s catholic piety gone wrong.

Note that Catholics offer Masses to God in honor of saints and venerable individuals. But we never give sacrifices to saints and individuals (even angels) themselves. That’s idolatry. In relation to this, we do not “offer sweat and blood” for money! Otherwise, that’s thinking of money as “god” – idolatry. We “offer sweat and blood” for our loved ones: precisely so we earn and be able to express that love in a better way to our loved ones.

Best,
jpink1019 said:
The words i am quoting below are not my own, but are from a source that i have been reluctant to read from because of how inflammatory they are. I am posting these words that are from a prominent protestant evangelical because the issue of Mary has been something that I have never been able to understand nor come to a conclusion about. Also I had trusted this minister and heard many a christian reference him before as a trustworthy resource. I was raised baptist but my bestfriend is roman catholic. He and I have tried talking many times about this issue, but it is difficult.

“… there are millions all over the world who worship Mary. Millions of images of her in every imaginable form are scattered throughout the world. They’re obviously not able to even be counted…millions of them in every form and every location, churches, cathedrals, shrines, houses, streets, cars, wallets, everywhere are images, pictures, representations of Mary. Millions upon millions of people every day pray to her. They pray to her to save them. They pray to her to protect them. They pray to her to help them, to comfort them, to rescue them, to bring them to heaven and she has never heard one of those prayers ever. By any honest definition, this is idolatry, this is a severe violation of the first commandment, to have no other gods but the true and living God, is no different than pagan idolatry which God totally condemns as an abomination. So let’s just get that clear at the beginning.”

If anyone can shed some light on this or just give me there thoughts i would appreciate it.
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I asked my father and he said no, so I asked my mother and she said yes, then my father came around 😃 Does this mean that the mother and father are equal in power and authority? Where is the information to say that? Okay, human parents are generally equal as far as power and authority, but Jesus and Mary are our spiritual parents. Still, either the husband or the wife has to break a tie which means that either the husband or the wife has greater decision making power. A husband who doesn’t respect and honor his wife though stands to lose her. Jesus Christ can honor his mother as her son and still exercise greater authority and power. We should no more try to claim testing God that Mary is His equal than we should question Mary’s humility before her son. Mary tells us she is a mere servant of the Lord, why does anyone question her on this point?

Well, Mary we must understand does not presume to have as much authority as her son.
She can intercede for us though, like she did at the wedding of Cana when she said they have no wine son prompting Jesus to perform his first miracle.

Does Mary want people to worship her, to tell her that salvation comes from her and ask her for it? No, “I am the handmaid of the Lord, let it be done to me according to your will.” I can translate that to, I am humble before the Lord my son, I am not His equal.

Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit, she brought Jesus the son of God to the Earth, and she became the first Catholic. Consider that if what we do is not pleasing to Mary, our spiritual mother, that this is not pleasing to God. Mary’s role is to point to her son always. If Christ dispenses grace through Mary, who are we to say that those who receive grace are worshipping her? Through the power of the Holy Spirit, the spiritual example of the saints is a blessing upon mankind, but the saints are certainly
not worshipped for being messengers of the Holy Spirit. Look at the transfiguration perhaps where Peter not knowing what to say wanted to erect three tents. Was he intending to worship Moses and Elijah? Would not Moses and Elijah have discouraged this? The Holy Spirit made it clear who Jesus is and He became illuninated. Peter could not have left that mountain ignorant of the fact that Jesus is above the prophets Moses and Elijah power and authority wise, which is a major point of the bible accounts.

Anti Catholics have absolutely no choice, they have to attack the first Catholic. Don’t worry though, Jesus Christ protects both Mary and his human bride on Earth, the church:D

I hope an appropriate person will clean up what I’ve said if there any problems with it and I hope this helps.
 
TimothyH said:
Mary is a Queen. Mary is the Queen of Heaven and Earth. It’s that simple and entirely Biblical.

There is no doubt that Jesus is a King. Kings in the Old Testament did not appoint their wives to be queen but appointed their mother to the position of queen. . .

-Tim-
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Thanks for your interesting reply Tim - most helpful and insightful !

I was admitted into the Catholic church this Easter. It has been a roller coaster ride ever since - exciting, joyful and just too wonderful to express in words.
 
nute said:
I asked my father and he said no, so I asked my mother and she said yes, then my father came around 😃 Does this mean that the mother and father are equal in power and authority? . . .
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I can’t recall the exact words, but I know I have scribbled them down somewhere. Did not de Montfort write that Mary is the greatest of all people on earth, but the least in heaven. I think it is probably important to read the whole context of what he wrote, but I think it is really a contrast between Mary and God in heaven more than anything else. Can someone else give the exact quote?
 
Marian apparations usually happen when we are straying away from God in a serious way. So if you never experience a Marian apparition, that could be a good thing. Mary is easier to talk to perhaps than the almighty Lord Jesus, but I understand that an apparition can still be pretty scary. Mary has appeared to people privately to comfort them, to remind them that they have her son the Lord always with the power to take care of all of their needs.

Christ wants to appear to say an animal. Most animals flee from humans, not that Jesus will have a problem should he appear in human likeness to one. A way to approach an animal is in the form of that animal. Jesus God almighty came to us in our form taking on our natural problems/limitations. We are talking: diaper rash, pain, etcetera. Did Jesus Christ have to experience the natual world drawbacks of being human? No. Did Jesus fully God experiencing our pain/limitations bring God closer to us? Yes. Is anyone closer to Jesus personally and spiritually and effectively the whole God head than Mary His mother? Mary said yes to the Holy Spirit before she experienced Jesus Christ the man, and she grew in faith as Jesus grew up. Mary made a free choice, she was not coerced.

Mary is one of us, she is an advocate for us to her son who is God the source of all: Love, Hope, and Charity. Charity is at the intersection of Hope and Love. Mary is the human that approaches mankind in the service of God almighty. She is honored and venerated because her yes redeemed the human race. Mary’s yes lead to Jesus Christ opening the gates of heaven for all who came before, during, and after his birth. Where Mary is the first Catholic, Joseph is the second with his affitmative decision to marry Mary and protect her. Mary facilitated and facilitates God’s plan, she isn’t the source of it.

Catholics do NOT worship Mary, we merely attempt to make her proud of us and we ask her to connect us with God.
 
I don’t think any human ever has or ever will take on a greater challenge than what Mary the mother of God took on. She chose to believe the angel Gabriel and accepted becoming pregnant by the Holy Spirit in a culture where you could be stoned for becoming pregnant by someone other than your fiancee. Mary then had to give birth in an uncomfortable stable without modern medicine like we have today. Mary learns from Simeon that her heart will be pierced as if by a sword. Mary doesn’t escape the cross, she is there at the foot of it. Tremendous bravery and tremendous faith, that is what I see when I look at the blessed mother. She did what many women could not have. If you are a woman, could you believe the angel Gabriel let alone say yes to his radical proposal? Mary has one of the highest, not the lowest places in heaven. The more you do for God and the more you are persecuted for it, the greater your crown will be in heaven. Serve the Lord willingly, have faith that he will never give you more than you can handle. If life is getting seemingly too hard, ask Mary your spiritual mother to come and comfort you. Oh happy fault which gained for us so great a redeemer, Adam and Eve’s sin. Thank you Lord God for Joseph and Mary.
 
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