Worship

[Trogdor]

wor·ship (wûrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifshhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gifp)
n.

1. 1. 
      *]The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
      *] The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
      
      *] Ardent devotion; adoration.
      
      “Hail Holy Queen” A catholic prayer to Mary
      “Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.”
      

        **MEMORARE: ** Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary that never was
        it known that anyone who fled to Your protection, implored Your
        help, or sought Your intercession was left unaided. Inspired with
        this confidence, we fly to you, O Virgin of virgins, our Mother.
        To You we come; before You we stand, sinful and sorrowful. O
        Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not our petitions, but in
        Your mercy, hear and answer us.  Amen.

      Keep the above definition of worship in mind, and also keep in mind that we are to worship no person, idol, object etc. other than God. Now please tell me how the above does not constitute worship.

 

[JackmanUSC]

Luke 1:35 - the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the “Theotokos”).

Luke 1:28 - “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God.

Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase “full of grace” is translated from the Greek word “kecharitomene.” This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. “Full of grace” is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Luke 1:38 - Mary’s fiat is “let it be done to me according to thy word.” Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of our veneration.

Luke 1:42 - “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). We too can go through Mary to praise Jesus. Finally, Catholics repeat these divinely inspired words of Elizabeth in the Rosary.

Luke 1:43 - Elizabeth’s use of “Mother of my Lord” (in Hebrew, Elizabeth used “Adonai” which means Lord God) is the equivalent of “Holy Mary, Mother of God” which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus’ Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (Mary is not just the Mother of Jesus’ human nature - mothers are mothers of persons, not natures).

Luke 1:44 - Mary’s voice causes John the Baptist to leap for joy in Elizabeth’s womb. Luke is teaching us that Mary is our powerful intercessor.

Luke 1:46 - Mary claims that her soul magnifies the Lord. This is a bold statement from a young Jewish girl from Nazareth. Her statement is a strong testimony to her uniqueness. Mary, as our Mother and intercessor, also magnifies our prayers.

Luke 1:48 - Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the “Hail Mary” prayer. What Protestant churches have existed in all generations (none), and how many of them call Mary blessed with special prayers and devotions?

Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. Mary is the woman with the redeemer. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, we are simply calling Mary “the woman with the redeemer.” This is because “co” is from the Latin word “cum” which means “with.” Therefore, “co-redemptrix” means “woman with the redeemer.” Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.

 

[snowman10]

I think you need to understand that the definition you present is secular, and does not pertain to the Catholic faith. Do you goto a Protestant to explain Catholicism? You shouldnt but some do, so they may get a warped or biased explanation. The same applies here. Ask a Catholic if they worship Mary, and the answer is no, or at least it should be. But if you look up the word “worship” you get the definition you presented. Even if you wanted to apply it here, you can’t because of what the Church teaches.

If you would like to go striictly by the defenition, than you may be able to pull off your accusation.Dont forget though, there are some other religions, such as indigenous tribes in New Zealand, that worship plants and trees, so it does apply there. I also must not forget some Protestants that practice bibliolatry, or the “worship” of the Bible. However, just because you love the word of God and use it and sometimes kiss it, it does not mean you worship it, in the way you defined it. In my former Methodist church, they placed the Bible in the middle of the altar, but nobody worshipped it. Please be careful.

The Bible fits the description of “sacred object”. And most people to have a reverence for it.

In fact, here is a definition of Reverence:

reverence

n 1: a profound emotion inspired by a deity; “the fear of God” [syn: fear, awe, veneration] 2: a reverent mental attitude [ant: irreverence] v : regard with feelings of respect and reverence; consider hallowed or exalted or be in awe of; “Fear God as your father”; “We venerate genius” [syn: fear, revere, venerate].

We have a reverence for Mary, we do not worship her.

DU

 

[Ann_Cheryl]

Merriam-Webster

m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=worship&x=2&y=8

1 chiefly British : a person of importance – used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem
You seem to have eliminated the first definition and the fourth.
I assume you want to limit it to 2 and 3 well then my question to you is How does it constitue worship.
No one says that Mary is divine so your definition fails if you are trying to prove that we worship Mary.

 

[JackmanUSC]

Don’t you love the fellows who come in to post once and leave because they are scared of learning the truth.

 

[jrabs]

Thank you for providing 2 beautiful prayers for us to ponder. You will notice that they, however, were very bad examples to use to support your argument.

For example, in the Salve Regina prayer ( Hail Holy Queen), we plead for Mary to show us Her Son and lead the way to Him. (As we know that She always lead to Her Son).

In the Memorare, we are asking specifically for Her intercession. Why would we bother asking for intercession if She were on par with Christ.

Nonsense.

 

[Trogdor]

snowman10:

I think you need to understand that the definition you present is secular, and does not pertain to the Catholic faith.
DU

I’m sorry but I don’t quite follow, how can a definition (in this case worship) be secular or religious? It is simply a definition it does not have a particular preference one way or the other.

snowman10:

Ask a Catholic if they worship Mary, and the answer is no, or at least it should be. But if you look up the word “worship” you get the definition you presented. Even if you wanted to apply it here, you can’t because of what the Church teaches.
DU

Maybe I don’t quite understand what you are trying to say here but I will give it a shot: Are you saying that the Catholic Church has the ability to redifine the meaning of words? I’m sorry but words mean what they mean, you may not want to accept the definition of a word but it does not stop it from being what it is.

 

[JackmanUSC]

whoa whoa whoa trogdor, why don’t you argue scripture first. we already looked up the meaning and you left out part of it, being the portion reserved for reverence. strike 1

 

[DeFide]

Trogdor:

I’m sorry but I don’t quite follow, how can a definition (in this case worship) be secular or religious? It is simply a definition it does not have a particular preference one way or the other.

Maybe I don’t quite understand what you are trying to say here but I will give it a shot: Are you saying that the Catholic Church has the ability to redifine the meaning of words? I’m sorry but words mean what they mean, you may not want to accept the definition of a word but it does not stop it from being what it is.

By your own definition, if you adore your wife, I guess that means you are “worshipping” her.

If you MEAN that our attitude toward God is identical to our attitude toward Mary, then you are wrong. We love Mary because she is the zenith of obedience to God. We love God because he is the infinite, almighty, perfect, God.

 

[Trogdor]

JackmanUSC:

Don’t you love the fellows who come in to post once and leave because they are scared of learning the truth.

Please don’t criticize me just because it is my first post here. I have discussed this topic other places and have not gotten a satisfactory answer.

 

[Trelow]

Trogdor:

I’m sorry but I don’t quite follow, how can a definition (in this case worship) be secular or religious? It is simply a definition it does not have a particular preference one way or the other.

Maybe I don’t quite understand what you are trying to say here but I will give it a shot: Are you saying that the Catholic Church has the ability to redifine the meaning of words? I’m sorry but words mean what they mean, you may not want to accept the definition of a word but it does not stop it from being what it is.

Worship always requires a sacrifice. Here is a tip for our seperated bretheren, read the old testament! Our culture has redefined the word, not the Church.

 

[JackmanUSC]

Sorry, but that aside I gave you one, time for the rebuttal.
oh and here is some more scripture to give you too. :tiphat:

John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying “behold your mother.” Jesus did not say “John, behold your mother” because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The “woman’s” (Mary’s) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God’s covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.

John 2:3 - this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us. Further, Mary’s intercession at the marriage feast in Cana triggers Jesus’ ministry and a foreshadowing of the Eucharistic celebration of the Lamb. This celebration unites all believers into one famiy through the marriage of divinity and humanity.

John 2:7 - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother’s request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water.

Psalm 45:9 - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God’s kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.

1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.

1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King’s followers. She is the Queen Mother (or “Gebirah”). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.

1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.

1 Kings 15:13 - the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel’s royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.

2 Chron. 22:10 - here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.

Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.

 

[Trogdor]

Ann Cheryl:

Merriam-Webster

m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=worship&x=2&y=8

1 chiefly British : a person of importance – used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem
You seem to have eliminated the first definition and the fourth.
I assume you want to limit it to 2 and 3 well then my question to you is How does it constitue worship.
No one says that Mary is divine so your definition fails if you are trying to prove that we worship Mary.

You are right I have left out the first definition, I did this because I am fairly certain that Mary was not British and thus the definition does not apply in this context. The 4th definition should be included in the discussion as it does describe the previous two prayers. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[JackmanUSC]

Why did I post all of these passages and explanations? Because it is time to prove that the overall trend of the Bible falls in the favor of the Catholic Church. Critics can sight a few lines out of context, but can’t back it up other than that. I am personally tired of those old and tired methods of criticism and I am personally setting out on a mission to put these critics in their place. As should all Catholics.

 

[Isidore_AK]

We would be happy to provide a better answer. Your name though, it does inspire one to think that perhaps you are a troll of some sort…and that makes many of us wary of Catholic-bashers.

I am just about to leave work, so if you would be willing to peruse this short Catholic Answers article, I would be happy to answer any questions you may have left after I get home.

catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp

It should answer your question quite well…

 

[Trogdor]

Isidore_AK:

We would be happy to provide a better answer. Your name though, it does inspire one to think that perhaps you are a troll of some sort…and that makes many of us wary of Catholic-bashers.

Ahh perhaps you are right, upon reflection Trogdor does seem to be a bit antagonistic, to put you at ease it is a cartoon character from homestarrunner.com and a name that I have been using online for some time. I did not mean that I am trolling it is simply the name that I go by online. Sorry.

 

[snowman10]

I think I dont have enough experience to explain clearly but let me put it like this:

We do not worship Mary. The word “worship” does mean exaclty what you posted. But since when does a book of definitions define a religion or practice. Look to the Catechism for an explanation of practices and beliefs. That and the Bible, not a dictionary, define our faith, not Merriam-Webster. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Think of the word ***. It is supposed to mean a donkey. However, someone somewhere sometime decided it can also be used to inslut someone, so the original intent and connotation of the word was altered. Just my two cents.

DU

 

[JackmanUSC]

Trogdor you can concede any time now…

 

[Trogdor]

snowman10:

We do not worship Mary. The word “worship” does mean exaclty what you posted. But since when does a book of definitions define a religion or practice.
Look to the Catechism for an explanation of practices and beliefs.
DU

You tell me not to look to a book to define a religion or practice but in the next sentence tell me to look to a book to define a religion or practice? Think about it.

snowman10:

Think of the word ***. It is supposed to mean a donkey. However, someone somewhere sometime decided it can also be used to insult someone, so the original intent and connotation of the word was altered. Just my two cents.
DU

True, however I am unaware of any derogatory or alternate use of the word worship, it is a very unambiguous word who’s meaning is not in dispute.

Look, the way humans communicate is through words. Words have meaning and are strung together to form sentences that convey a thought or idea. Now, we can read a sentence written a long time ago that uses archaic words and take it to mean an entirely different thing, however the misunderstanding is on our part not the person who wrote the sentence a long time ago.

That being said the definition of worship is not what we are disputing here. What we are disputing is whether some of the prayers to Mary are considered worship, and as to that question I have yet to read a convincing argument that they are not worship.

I will check in on this discussion later, right now I have a 20+ page engineering paper that is due tomorrow that I have to put the finishing touches on

 

[TeriGator]

Trogdor:

You are right I have left out the first definition, I did this because I am fairly certain that Mary was not British and thus the definition does not apply in this context. The 4th definition should be included in the discussion as it does describe the previous two prayers. Thank you for the clarification.

Where do you think we got the word? From the Japanese? If we can’t apply English terms to a word that we GOT from the English, then why not just speak in Klingon?

Just because you personally reject the “British” term does not mean that it does not apply here. Please don’t expect us to pick and choose from a short list of meanings that you have compiled based on your own ideology.