Worship

[Chipper]

Trogdor,

Keep it simple.

If a person says “I don’t worship God”, are you then going to accuse this person of worshipping God? It seems ridiculous to say such a thing, because the mere statement “I don’t worship”, is a denial of worship, by definition. To search and look for signs of this or that is really just denying this simple fact.
Calvin

 

[Trelow]

Trogdor:

The heart of my question is this:
let us say that I say the following in a prayer to Mary:
“Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope!”

Now, let us say that I say the following in a prayer to God:
“Hail, holy King, Father of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope!”

My question is this: How can you consider either of these prayers to be anything other than worship?

If I said these same words to a pagan idol carved out of wood would I be an idol worshiper?

???

Worship requires a sacrifice. If ther is no sacrifice involved then the act is not worship. Protestants do not worship anything. Catholics have the holy sacrifice of the mass. I have never slaughtered a lamb for Mary, bet every day at Catholic alters we unite ourselves with Christ Jesus’ perfect sacrifice on calvary.
That is worship. Sacrifice, agian I say unto you, read the old testament.

 

[Ann_Cheryl]

So when a pagan worships a piece of wood it is not worship due to the fact that it is not a supernatural being but is infact a piece of wood?

If you are saying that the pagan regards the wood as his god, then you are right.
You see it comes down to intent.

Are you saying that it is ok to do a sinful action if it is done with the right intent??? Is it ok to go through the action of worshipping Mary if we intend it to be something else?

No. What I am saying is that you are seeing a sinful action where none exist.

I’m going to be quite honest with you, if someone said that to me (even if she was my wife) it would seriously weird me out.
No offense, but I don’t know anybody that would say that to their spouse.

But I just told you I did of course you don’t know me but I also bet that you don’t know everything that is said between husband and wife of everyone you know. It seems natural to tell my husband he is my life because he is.

Now you can argue the meaning of the word “worship” all day long (something I would really not rather go into due to the fact that I learned the meaning in kindergarten) but in the final analysis worship means what it means, and neither you nor I can change that. True we can choose not to believe it or ignore its meaning entirely but that is a problem on our end, not in the meaning of the word.

That being said I am still not convinced that that is not Mary worship

That is what you started with the definition of worship to show us that we worship Mary. The fact is that over the past 100 years the meaning has changed. I can see why you want to get away from the definition because no matter what you say, the definition does not support your view point. It says honor to God. No where do we ever say that Mary is god or goddess. Your example of a pagan worshiping a god presupposes that he considers it a god. The definition says that he has to consider it a god. If the word worship means what it means than it means it must be a god. No matter how you try to distort the meaning you can’t. Your right the problem is on your end and not the meaning of the word.
A ship in a storm without a lighthouse?

 

[Ignatius]

wor·ship (wûrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifshhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gifp)
n.

1. 1. 
      *]The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
      *]The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
      
      *]Ardent devotion; adoration.
      
      “Hail Holy Queen” A catholic prayer to Mary
      
      “Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.”
      
      **MEMORARE: **Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary that never was
      it known that anyone who fled to Your protection, implored Your
      help, or sought Your intercession was left unaided. Inspired with
      this confidence, we fly to you, O Virgin of virgins, our Mother.
      To You we come; before You we stand, sinful and sorrowful. O
      Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not our petitions, but in
      Your mercy, hear and answer us. Amen.
      
      Keep the above definition of worship in mind, and also keep in mind that we are to worship no person, idol, object etc. other than God. Now please tell me how the above does not constitute worship.

1. 1. 
      
      So, are you suggesting that it is latria or dulia? Do you know the difference?

 

[Trogdor]

We seem to have forgotten the definition of worship here so I will state it again:
wor·ship (wûrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifshhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gifp)
n.

1. 1. 
      *]The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
      *] The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
      
      *] Ardent devotion; adoration
      
      The definition is not limited to a god or goddess it clearly states that it can be an idol or a sacred object!!! Lets not make up definitions here.
      Ann Cheryl:
      

      That is what you started with the definition of worship to show us that we worship Mary. The fact is that over the past 100 years the meaning has changed.

      Really? If you could provide the dictionary meaning of the word worship in 1905 I would gladly study it.
      
      The point I am trying to get across is that worship is an action. It is not a word, it is not an intent, it is something that is done by someone. “Intent” is inconsequential to this argument, we are not discussing intent we are discussing actions. They are two seperate things.
      Ann Cheryl:
      

      A ship in a storm without a lighthouse?

      Why would I need a lighthouse when the light is inside of the boat?

 

[Trogdor]

Vox Borealis:

1. Catholics would argue there is a difference, and here it is (though I am probably oversimplifying): when we invoke Mary, we are asking Mary to petition God for us. Thus, in the Ave Maria: “Hail Mary, Full of Grace…pray for us sinners…” Thus, we invoke Mary with an honorific title, but ultimately we ask her to pray–to whom? God!–for us.

While this is not on the topic of worship I think I will say a few words none the less. “For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” 1 Tim 2:5
Using your above argument your prayer goes from you to Mary who brings it to God. Hmmm. That would seem to be in direct violation of 1Tim 2:5 the meaning of which is very unambiguous.

Now I suppose you could say that we are asking Mary to pray to God for us just as we ask our brothers and sisters to pray to God on our behalf. The only problem with that logic is that:

1. I do not get down on my knees and pray to my brother.
2. My brother is not dead when I am asking him to pray for me
   (last time I checked the rapture had not occurred so I am
   still fairly certain that Mary is still dead)

Let me ask this question:
In certain asian religions the people pray to their dead ancestors. They ask for things such as good health, plentyful crops etc. Are they comitting a sin by praying to their dead relatives?

 

[JackmanUSC]

In the four verses right before 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul said that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way."You say no contact with the dead, God says no conjuring up spirits. He can provide the spirits of prophets and holy people
for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3).

Next up in Revelations" An angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4). So if the Bible says God is listening to the prayers of Mary and the Saints, why should we not ask them to pray for us?

 

[Trelow]

Trogdor:

We seem to have forgotten the definition of worship here so I will state it again:
wor·ship (wûrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifshhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gifp)
n.

1. 1. 
      *]The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
      *] The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
      
      *] Ardent devotion; adoration
      
      The definition is not limited to a god or goddess it clearly states that it can be an idol or a sacred object!!! Lets not make up definitions here.
      
      Really? If you could provide the dictionary meaning of the word worship in 1905 I would gladly study it.
      
      The point I am trying to get across is that worship is an action. It is not a word, it is not an intent, it is something that is done by someone. “Intent” is inconsequential to this argument, we are not discussing intent we are discussing actions. They are two seperate things.
      
      Why would I need a lighthouse when the light is inside of the boat?

1. 1. 
      DUDE! Read the old testament! WITHOUT A SACRIFICE THERE IS NO WORSHIP!
      
      Right, worship is an action, it is sacrificing one thing to another, that is worship. You are using a modernized definition of an ancient word.
      
      If you were to read a 1920’s book and it said that someone was gay that doesn’t mean that they are a sodomite! It means happy! Use the proper definition for the time!

 

[Ann_Cheryl]

We seem to have forgotten the definition of worship here so I will state it again:
wor·ship (wûrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifshhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gifp)
n.

1. 1. 
      *]The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
      *]The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.

1. 1. 
      

      *]Ardent devotion; adoration

      An incomplete definition as we have already established. You have not proven Mary is a deity(she isn’t) nor an idol or a sacred object. Your definition fails as proof that Mary is worshiped. It fails because it is a false asertion.
      

      Really? If you could provide the dictionary meaning of the word worship in 1905 I would gladly study it.

      catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp
      If the word had not changed meanings, than you would not have had a problem with the first definition
      

      You are right I have left out the first definition, I did this because I am fairly certain that Mary was not British and thus the definition does not apply in this context.

      You left it out because it did not further your argument. You are trying to prove we worship Mary. The way we use worship and its meaning has changed. Unless you think the British are worshiping their magistrates. Their being address as your worship has to mean a change of meanings.
      

      The point I am trying to get across is that worship is an action. It is not a word, it is not an intent, it is something that is done by someone. “Intent” is inconsequential to this argument, we are not discussing intent we are discussing actions. They are two seperate things.

      You didn’t mean that it is not a word? Did you?
      Words that are actions always have intent behind it.
      Actions have to have a receiver. I worship ____. In order to complete the sentence look at your definition. See what I said about your definition above.

 

[Ann_Cheryl]

Let me ask this question:
In certain asian religions the people pray to their dead ancestors. They ask for things such as good health, plentyful crops etc. Are they comitting a sin by praying to their dead relatives?

No.

While this is not on the topic of worship

I agree. It belongs in another thread. But just one quote from the bible to you.

Mt. 22

1. 
   ]32] `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not* God of the dead**, but of the living."

1. 
   Now let me ask you is Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive?

 

[Trelow]

Litany of Loreto

   Lord, have mercy.
*Christ have mercy.*
Lord have mercy. Christ hear us.
*Christ graciously hear us.*
God the Father of heaven, *have mercy on us.*
God the Son, Redeemer of the world, *have mercy on us.*
God the Holy Spirit, *have mercy on us. *
Holy Trinity, one God, *have mercy on us. *

   Holy Mary, *pray for us. *
Holy Mother of God, *pray for us. *
Holy Virgin of Virgins, *pray for us*
Mother of Christ, *pray for us*
Mother of divine grace,* pray for us*
Mother most pure, *pray for us*
Mother most chaste, *pray for us*
Mother inviolate, *pray for us*
Mother undefiled, *pray for us*
Mother most amiable, *pray for us*
Mother most admirable, *pray for us*
Mother of good Counsel, *pray for us*
Mother of our Creator, *pray for us*
Mother of our Savior, *pray for us*
Virgin most prudent, *pray for us*
Virgin most venerable, *pray for us*
Virgin most renowned, *pray for us*
Virgin most powerful, *pray for us*
Virgin most merciful, *pray for us*
Virgin most faithful, *pray for us*
Mirror of justice, *pray for us*
Seat of wisdom, *pray for us*
Cause of our joy, *pray for us*
Spiritual vessel, *pray for us*
Vessel of honor, *pray for us*
Singular vessel of devotion, *pray for us*
Mystical rose, *pray for us*
Tower of David, *pray for us*
Tower of ivory, *pray for us*
House of gold, *pray for us*
Ark of the covenant, *pray for us*
Gate of heaven, *pray for us*
Morning star, *pray for us*
Health of the sick, *pray for us*
Refuge of sinners, *pray for us*
Comforter of the afflicted, *pray for us*
Help of Christians, *pray for us*
Queen of Angels, *pray for us*
Queen of Patriarchs, *pray for us*
Queen of Prophets, *pray for us*
Queen of Apostles, *pray for us*
Queen of Martyrs, *pray for us*
Queen of Confessors, *pray for us*
Queen of Virgins, *pray for us*
Queen of all Saints, *pray for us*
Queen conceived without original sin, *pray for us*
Queen assumed into heaven, *pray for us*
Queen of the most holy Rosary, *pray for us*
Queen of peace, *pray for us*

   Lamb of God, Who takest away the sins of the world,
*Spare us, O Lord. *

Lamb of God, Who takest away the sins of the world,
*Graciously hear us, O Lord. *
Lamb of God, Who takest away the sins of the world,
*Have mercy on us. *

   Pray for us, O holy Mother of God.*

That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ. *

   Let us pray. Grant, we beseech Thee, O Lord God, that we thy servants may enjoy     perpetual health of mind and body, and by the glorious intercession of blessed Mary, ever     Virgin, may we be freed from present sorrow, and rejoice in eternal happiness. Through     Christ our Lord.  *Amen*.

 

[ferdie]

trogdor, you are restricting the meaning of “worship” in its 20th century definition.

 

[Trogdor]

ferdie:

trogdor, you are restricting the meaning of “worship” in its 20th century definition.

You are absolutly correct!!! I am restricting the meaning of the word “worship” to it’s 20th century meaning due to the fact that the Bible we use is a 20th century translation. If I took our modern translation of the Bible and replaced whatever words I wanted with archaic meanings I could prove just about anything!!!

 

[Fidelis]

Trogdor:

The only problem with that logic is that:

1. I do not get down on my knees and pray to my brother.

Since others have ably refuted the rest of this post, let me address this.

Just as you are imposing a 20th century American (and Protestant) definition on the word and activity of “worship,” you are doing the same to the action of kneeling while entreating an honored person. In ancient times (and until fairly recently, in the case of those who stood before royalty and magistrates), it was a common and entirely acceptable practice:

2Ki 1:13 -
Again the king sent the captain of a third fifty with his fifty. And the third captain of fifty went up, and came and fell on his knees before Eli’jah, and entreated him, "O man of God, I pray you, let my life, and the life of these fifty servants of yours, be precious in your sight.

Da 2:46 -
Then King Nebuchadnez’zar fell upon his face, and did homage to Daniel, and commanded that an offering and incense be offered up to him.

Mt 18:26 -
So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’

While moderns don’t usually don’t take this posture while entreating someone, last I knew there is no prohibition against it --legally or biblically. Again, since Protestants have such a low and truncated theology (not to mention a limited historical perspective), ANY action of honor to a human appears to them as worship.

Hope this helps!

 

[Trogdor]

Fidelis:

Since others have ably refuted the rest of this post, let me address this.

Just as you are imposing a 20th century American (and Protestant) definition on the word and activity of “worship,” you are doing the same to the action of kneeling while entreating an honored person. In ancient times (and until fairly recently, in the case of those who stood before royalty and magistrates), it was a common and entirely acceptable practice:

While moderns don’t usually don’t take this posture while entreating someone, last I knew there is no prohibition against it --legally or biblically

.

The good news is you are winning your argument, the bad news is you are arguing with an imaginary opponent. I never said that kneeling was worship, perhaps you should read the previous posts more closely the next time you decide to post.

Fidelis:

Again, since Protestants have such a low and truncated theology (not to mention a limited historical perspective), ANY action of honor to a human appears to them as worship.

.

It seems to me that you are attacking my intelligence rather than my argument. If you do not have anything of substance to post then please refrain from doing so. Insults do nothing but bring the discussion down to petty name calling, which is something I would like to avoid.

 

[Trelow]

Trogdor:

You are absolutly correct!!! I am restricting the meaning of the word “worship” to it’s 20th century meaning due to the fact that the Bible we use is a 20th century translation. If I took our modern translation of the Bible and replaced whatever words I wanted with archaic meanings I could prove just about anything!!!

God did not inscribe the ten commandments in 1994.

If you take the Bible and apply meanings to words that were never intended you end up with 32,000 protestant denominations.

 

[Ann_Cheryl]

I think this

Just as you are imposing a 20th century American (and Protestant) definition on the word and activity of “worship,” you are doing the same to the action of kneeling while entreating an honored person. In ancient times (and until fairly recently, in the case of those who stood before royalty and magistrates), it was a common and entirely acceptable practice:

While moderns don’t usually don’t take this posture while entreating someone, last I knew there is no prohibition against it --legally or biblically

was an answer to this

1. I do not get down on my knees and pray to my brother.

Originally Posted by Fidelis
*Again, since Protestants have such a low and truncated theology (not to mention a limited historical perspective), ANY action of honor to a human appears to them as worship.
*

It seems to me that you are attacking my intelligence rather than my argument. If you do not have anything of substance to post then please refrain from doing so. Insults do nothing but bring the discussion down to petty name calling, which is something I would like to avoid.

I do not wish for this thread to be closed. So we must be careful not to be uncharitable. I am learning a lot. Now that being said Trogdor I have read and reread Fidelis and I cannot see the insult that you claim. He may be wrong in his opinion and I see a need for clarifcation but I think you reacted too strongly. Perhaps you are misunderstanding or maybe I am.

 

[Trogdor]

JackmanUSC:

In the four verses right before 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul said that Christians should interceed: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.”

So you are using a verse that talks about praying for people who are in positions of authority to justify praying to a dead person? This verse says nothing about praying to dead people. What this verse does advocate is that we who are on earth should pray to God that our leaders would “come unto the knowledge of the truth” Verse 4
To try and use this verse as a basis for prayers to persons other than God requires an incredible leap in logic that I am not prepared to make.

JackmanUSC:

You say no contact with the dead, God says no conjuring up spirits. He can provide the spirits of prophets and holy people
for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3).

I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. Could you perhaps expound upon this fruther?

JackmanUSC:

Next up in Revelations" An angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4). So if the Bible says God is listening to the prayers of Mary and the Saints, why should we not ask them to pray for us?

My question is why should we pray to Mary when we can pray directly to God? Why would I want to pray to a mortal human when I can pray directly to the God who created heaven and earth? I have still not heard one convincing argument on this.

 

[Trelow]

Trogdor:

.
It seems to me that you are attacking my intelligence rather than my argument. If you do not have anything of substance to post then please refrain from doing so. Insults do nothing but bring the discussion down to petty name calling, which is something I would like to avoid.

It isn’t petty name calling. Protestants have a low and truncated theology and a limited historical perspective. How else whould they even exist? I know, I was once one.

You have to know where you came from to know how to get where you want to go.

 

[Ann_Cheryl]

My question is why should we pray to Mary when we can pray directly to God? Why would I want to pray to a mortal human when I can pray directly to the God who created heaven and earth? I have still not heard one convincing argument on this.

In my family, the children knew to come to me first when they wanted something. They knew that I could get the attention of their father and present it in the best way.

They knew when they needed their father to listen they needed to come to me. Even now that they are adults they still do the same thing.

The first miracle of Jesus was at the request of his mother.