Worship

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Trogdor:
My question is why should we pray to Mary when we can pray directly to God? Why would I want to pray to a mortal human when I can pray directly to the God who created heaven and earth? I have still not heard one convincing argument on this.
Every Christian I know is willing to pray for others. When someone asks you to pray for them, you don’t snap back, “Why don’t you go straight to God!” …do you?

Rom 15:30 - join me by your prayers to God on my behalf
Col 4:3, 1Thess 5:25 - pray for us
2Thess 1:11 - we always pray for you
2Thess 3:1 - finally, brothers, pray for us
Eph 6:18-19 - making supplication for all the saints & for me
Tob 12:12 - angel presents Tobit & Sarah’s prayer to God
Ps 148 - David calls upon angels
Zech 1:12 - angel intercedes for Jerusalem
Mk 12:25, Mt 22:30 - men in heaven are as the angels
Rev 5:8 - those in heaven offer prayers of the holy ones to God
Mk 12:26-27 - he is God of the living, not of the dead
Mk 9:4 - Jesus seen conversing with Elijah & Moses
Lk 9:31 - Elijah & Moses aware of earthly events
Rev 6:9-11 - martyrs under altar want earthly vindication
Heb 12:1 - we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses
Lk 16:19-30 - departed rich man intercedes for brothers
Rev 20:4 - saw the souls of those who had been beheaded
Wis 3:1-6 - the souls of the just are in the hand of God
2Macc 15:7-16 - the departed Onias & Jeremiah pray for the Jews
Jas 5:16 prayers of righteous man
1 Cor. 13:12 - I shall understand fully
1 John 4: 20-21 - whoever loves God must love his brother
1 Cor 12:21 - parts of Christ’s Body cannot say to other parts, “I do not need you”.
1Tim 2:1-7 - offer prayers, petitions for all men

catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
 
The words in those intercessory prayers you posted do seem like we are worshipping Mary.

However, there is a missing piece that you do not see. How on earth can I call Mary my life, my sweetness and my hope? My hope should be in Christ alone, yes?

Those prayers were written by Catholics Christians for Catholics Christians. They start with the expectation that you understand the basics. The basics are this. The only reason Mary is anything at all is because of Christ. Christ is my only hope and salvation. He died for my sins.

Why is Mary my life? Because she said yes to God, gave birth to Christ and Christ gives me life.(points to Christ). Why is she my sweetness? Because Christ came from her womb, Christ is eternal sweetness.(points to Christ) Why is she my hope? Because she said yes, because she bore Christ, I am able to have hope in Christ.

All of these things used to be understood by all Christians. Even Luther and Calvin both had much reverence for Mary.

These ultimately are praises of Christ not Mary. You may ask, why not just praise Christ directly, why not pray to Christ directly? We do. But we also do things in a older, more old fashioned way. Praising a person’s mother is a way of praising the person.

I know you probably won’t agree, but I pray you can start to see a glimmer of understanding about the flowery words used about Mary. Christ is everything. Anything Mary was or did, the glory and honor belong to God, not Mary. By praising Mary, we praise Christ.

God Bless,
Maria
 
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Trogdor:
My question is why should we pray to Mary when we can pray directly to God? Why would I want to pray to a mortal human when I can pray directly to the God who created heaven and earth? I have still not heard one convincing argument on this.
Aha–your question has changed. Initially you started this thread by positing a definition of worship and implying that, based on this definition, Catholics worship Mary. This has led to a lengthy discussion of whether or not Catholics actually worship Mary (that is, the difference, if any, between worship of God and prayer to Mary, saints, etc.).

Now it appears you are really asking about the efficacy of praying to Mary/saints as opposed to praying directly to God. This seems to be a (mostly) different issue, to me. Perhaps you should start a separate thread on this issue, though Ann Cheryl’s analogy is a good starting point.
 
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Trogdor:
.The good news is you are winning your argument, the bad news is you are arguing with an imaginary opponent. I never said that kneeling was worship, perhaps you should read the previous posts more closely the next time you decide to post.
You brought up kneeling as an objection, I responded. Perhaps you should read your own posts more carefully. 🙂
It seems to me that you are attacking my intelligence rather than my argument. If you do not have anything of substance to post then please refrain from doing so. Insults do nothing but bring the discussion down to petty name calling, which is something I would like to avoid.
I have gone out of my way to NOT attack you personally. My remarks were directed to the deficiencies of Protestant theology in general. If that is an insult to you, then you are insulting every Catholic here by your accusation that Catholics are idol worshipers.
My question is why should we pray to Mary when we can pray directly to God? Why would I want to pray to a mortal human when I can pray directly to the God who created heaven and earth? I have still not heard one convincing argument on this.
Another deficiency in Protestant theology is the either/or false dichotomy. Catholics pray directly to God and ask others (including Saints) to pray for us. Granted we can ask the Saints in heaven to pray for us (your question is why *should * we do it) : why *wouldn’t * we want to? The prayer of a righteous man avails much (James 5:16)
 
Ann Cheryl:
In my family, the children knew to come to me first when they wanted something. They knew that I could get the attention of their father and present it in the best way.

They knew when they needed their father to listen they needed to come to me. Even now that they are adults they still do the same thing.

The first miracle of Jesus was at the request of his mother.
I have stayed out of this fray so far, but here I must add. Ann Cheryl has brought up a good point that has a scriptural basis in seeking the prayers/intercession of the queen mother. Look up the history of the “giberah” or Queen Mother in the Old Testament. (1 Kings 2). Notice how Solomon says he will not refuse her request and that she sits at his right hand. In the ancient Near East, often the wife of the king did not reign as queen but the mother did. Hope this helps. Thanks and God Bless.
 
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Trogdor:
I’m sorry but I don’t quite follow, how can a definition (in this case worship) be secular or religious? It is simply a definition it does not have a particular preference one way or the other.

Maybe I don’t quite understand what you are trying to say here but I will give it a shot: Are you saying that the Catholic Church has the ability to redifine the meaning of words? I’m sorry but words mean what they mean, you may not want to accept the definition of a word but it does not stop it from being what it is.
Words are not eternal. The word “worship” is an English word that means something similar to the latin word latria, but it is not identical. The Church is older than webster’s definition of the word.
 
In Catholic theology there are two levels of honor. First there is latria. This is offered to God alone, an example would be the mass. It can be called worship. We worship God because of himself.

The second is dulia. This is the form of honor that is offered to the saints. We honor the saints due to there success on earth in there journey to God. So, all the honor we offer to a saint, dulia, is offered in reference to God. If you read Augustine’s On Christian Doctrine, you will see what I mean when he discusses enjoyment versus use. We honor the saints because of God. It is due to there love for God that we honor them.

By honoring Mary, I am honoring God himself because what I am honoring in Mary is from God. We do not honor Mary for anything inherent to herself.

I hope that helps.
 
**Litany of Loreto
**Lord, have mercy.
Christ have mercy.
Lord have mercy. Christ hear us.
Christ graciously hear us.
God the Father of heaven, have mercy on us.
God the Son, Redeemer of the world, have mercy on us.
God the Holy Spirit, *have mercy on us. *
Holy Trinity, one God, *have mercy on us. *
Holy Mary, pray for us. *
Holy Mother of God, pray for us. *
Holy Virgin of Virgins, pray for us
Mother of Christ, pray for us
Mother of divine grace,
pray for us

Mother most pure, pray for us
Mother most chaste, pray for us
Mother inviolate, pray for us
Mother undefiled, pray for us
Mother most amiable, pray for us
Mother most admirable, pray for us
Mother of good Counsel, pray for us
Mother of our Creator, pray for us
Mother of our Savior, pray for us
Virgin most prudent, pray for us
Virgin most venerable, pray for us
Virgin most renowned, pray for us
Virgin most powerful, pray for us
Virgin most merciful, pray for us
Virgin most faithful, pray for us
Mirror of justice, pray for us
Seat of wisdom, pray for us
Cause of our joy, pray for us
Spiritual vessel, pray for us
Vessel of honor, pray for us
Singular vessel of devotion, pray for us
Mystical rose, pray for us
Tower of David, pray for us
Tower of ivory, pray for us
House of gold, pray for us
Ark of the covenant, pray for us
Gate of heaven, pray for us
Morning star, pray for us
Health of the sick, pray for us
Refuge of sinners, pray for us
Comforter of the afflicted, pray for us
Help of Christians, pray for us
Queen of Angels, pray for us
Queen of Patriarchs, pray for us
Queen of Prophets, pray for us
Queen of Apostles, pray for us
Queen of Martyrs, pray for us
Queen of Confessors, pray for us
Queen of Virgins, pray for us
Queen of all Saints, pray for us
Queen conceived without original sin, pray for us
Queen assumed into heaven, pray for us
Queen of the most holy Rosary, pray for us
Queen of peace, pray for us
Lamb of God, Who takest away the sins of the world,
*Spare us, O Lord. *
Lamb of God, Who takest away the sins of the world,
*Graciously hear us, O Lord. *
Lamb of God, Who takest away the sins of the world,
*Have mercy on us. *
Pray for us, O holy Mother of God.*
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ. *
Let us pray. Grant, we beseech Thee, O Lord God, that we thy servants may enjoy perpetual health of mind and body, and by the glorious intercession of blessed Mary, ever Virgin, may we be freed from present sorrow, and rejoice in eternal happiness. Through Christ our Lord. Amen
Oh man. That’s just beautiful. :love:
I’ve never heard that, have I?

Have you ever been to a Catholic mass, Trogdor? Maybe you have. There’s nothing like Catholic worship. Okay. Off topic…shutting up now.
 
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                                             Originally Posted by **Ann Cheryl**
             * That is what you started with the definition of worship to show us that we worship Mary. The fact is that over the past 100 years the meaning has changed.
Really? If you could provide the dictionary meaning of the word worship in 1905 I would gladly study it.
I got one, check it out:
Worship (Page: 1666) Wor"ship (?), n. [OE. worshipe, wur&edh;scipe, AS. weor&edh;scipe; weor&edh; worth + -scipe -ship. See http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?word=Worth”]Worth
, a., and -ship.]

1. Excellence of character; dignity; worth; worthiness. [Obs.] Shak. A man of worship and honour. *Chaucer.*Elfin, born of noble state, And muckle worship in his native land. *Spenser.***2. **Honor; respect; civil deference. [Obs.] Of which great worth and worship may be won. *Spenser.*Then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. *Luke xiv. 10.*3. Hence, a title of honor, used in addresses to certain magistrates and others of rank or station. My father desires your worships’ company. *Shak.*4. The act of paying divine honors to the Supreme Being; religious reverence and homage; adoration, or acts of reverence, paid to God, or a being viewed as God. God with idols in their worship joined." Milton. The worship of God is an eminent part of religion, and prayer is a chief part of religious worship. *Tillotson.*5. Obsequious or submissive respect; extravagant admiration; adoration. 'T is your inky brows, your black silk hair, Your bugle eyeballs, nor your cheek of cream, That can my spirits to your worship. *Shak.*6. An object of worship. In attitude and aspect formed to be At once the artist’s worship and despair. *Longfellow.*Devil worship, Fire worship, Hero worship, etc. See under Devil, Fire, Hero, etc.
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 **Worship** (Page: [1666](http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.page.sh?page=1666))   **Wor"ship**, v. t. [imp. & p. p. [url="http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?word=Worshiped"]Worshiped (?) ∨ [Worshipped](http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?word=Worshipped); p. pr. & vb. n. [Worshiping](http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?word=Worshiping) ∨ [Worshipping](http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?word=Worshipping).]
1. To respect; to honor; to treat with civil reverence. [Obsoles.] Chaucer. Our grave . . . shall have a tongueless mouth, Not worshiped with a waxen epitaph. *Shak.*This holy image that is man God worshipeth. *Foxe.*2. To pay divine honors to; to reverence with supreme respect and veneration; to perform religious exercises in honor of; to adore; to venerate. But God is to be worshiped. *Shak.*When all our fathers worshiped stocks and stones. *Milton.*3. To honor with extravagant love and extreme submission, as a lover; to adore; to idolize. With bended knees I daily worship her. *Carew.*Syn. – To adore; revere; reverence; bow to; honor. Worship

This is from a 1913 Webster Dictionary, click here to read the entries. Take a look at the second definition of the noun form, “honor” and “respect.” Better yet, look at the very first:" Excellence of character; dignity; worth; worthiness." Never heard it used that way before, I guess the word evolved. How dare the English language change! The verb form also includes “to honor.”
Definitions are pointless if you continue to define them to suit your needs. I ask you to consider our clearly defined latin words of “latria” and “dulia” to describe these acts towards the saints, Mary, or God. After all, they exist to elucidate the nature as well as the intents of the action.

Dei gratia,
Greyhawk
 
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Trogdor:
You are absolutly correct!!! I am restricting the meaning of the word “worship” to it’s 20th century meaning due to the fact that the Bible we use is a 20th century translation. If I took our modern translation of the Bible and replaced whatever words I wanted with archaic meanings I could prove just about anything!!!
Isn’t that the reason why we defined honor to specific degrees, like latria, dulia and hyperdulia so that other religion will understand us? When I pray to mother Mary, I pray with the intention of venerating and not worshiping. God knows that! God alone deserve the worship due to God. That is why in the mass we have the sacrificial offering. We don’t offer this sacrifice to mother Mary or St Joseph or to any other saints, angels, archangels, but we offer this sacrifice to God alone.

You are right, you could just prove anything and this is the reason why we are opposed to private interpretation.
 
Okay- let me use another approach than the one Trogdor is using.

When would the line be crossed between “respect” for Mary and “idolotrous worship” of Mary be reached. Is there a point at which the average Catholic would say “Whoa, okay- we need to back off here.”

If so, what would the action or ceremony be that would cross the line, if any.

I’ve asked many about the “May Crowning” of Marian statues, including various ceremonies- which I will say I have a very negative opinion about. Of course, you will all differ. On this- but is there a point where most of you would say “Okay- too far.”

If so, where do you think that point is?
 
If so, where do you think that point is?
That point would be if they thought of Mary other than a creature of God. That they thought of her as divine, a goddess able to create on her own.

I remember giving my own mother a crowning on Mother’s Day. I have to admit she wasn’t impressed with her crown of weeds. I had worked hard in braiding them together. They were beautiful to me.😉
 
Trogdor said:
wor·ship (wûrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifshhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gifp)
n.


    1. *]The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
      *]The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.

      *]Ardent devotion; adoration.

      “Hail Holy Queen” A catholic prayer to Mary

      “Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.”

      **MEMORARE: **Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary that never was
      it known that anyone who fled to Your protection, implored Your
      help, or sought Your intercession was left unaided. Inspired with
      this confidence, we fly to you, O Virgin of virgins, our Mother.
      To You we come; before You we stand, sinful and sorrowful. O
      Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not our petitions, but in
      Your mercy, hear and answer us. Amen.

      Keep the above definition of worship in mind, and also keep in mind that we are to worship no person, idol, object etc. other than God. Now please tell me how the above does not constitute worship.


    1. Typical protestant abridging, not only do you take bible verses out of context you take Dictionary verses out of context too or you misquote them in order to make some kind of point. I will provide you with the www.dictionary.com definintionSSS for the word worship, then I will tell you which worship you witness when Catholics worship Mary. And before you try to tell me that that is not the case, I will say how the heck do you know what every catholic has in mind when they are praying those prayers to Mary.

      wor·ship (wûrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifshhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gifp)
      n.

      1.a)The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.b)The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.

      **2.**Ardent devotion; adoration.

      **3.**often Worship Chiefly British. Used as a form of address for magistrates, mayors, and certain other dignitaries: Your Worship.

      v. wor·shiped, or wor·shipped wor·ship·ing, or wor·ship·ping **wor·ships **or wor·ships

      v. tr.

      1. *]To honor and love as a deity.
        *]To regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion. See Synonyms at revere1.

        v. intr.

        1. *]To participate in religious rites of worship.
          *]To perform an act of worship.

          Now, let me give you a lesson in the word worship, the first definition above, which you actually list as 2 definitions in order to misguide people, is in fact what Catholics do when they worship God. The second one, which you seem to have neglected or rather purposely not mentioned is what Catholics do when they worship Mary…then go further and see the the verb versions of the word worship and notice that both times the first definition purtains to deity or God which is what Catholics do when they worship God…but both also have a second definition and you’ll note that the synonym given for the second definition is revere…if you would like me to provide you with the definition for revere I would be happy to educate you my friend.

          Thanks,
          Rochus
 
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rschermer2:
Typical protestant abridging, not only do you take bible verses out of context you take Dictionary verses out of context too or you misquote them in order to make some kind of point. I will provide you with the www.dictionary.com definintionSSS for the word worship, then I will tell you which worship you witness when Catholics worship Mary. And before you try to tell me that that is not the case, I will say how the heck do you know what every catholic has in mind when they are praying those prayers to Mary.

wor·ship (wûrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifshhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gifp)
n.

1.a)The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.b)The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.

**2.**Ardent devotion; adoration.

**3.**often Worship Chiefly British. Used as a form of address for magistrates, mayors, and certain other dignitaries: Your Worship.

v. wor·shiped, or wor·shipped wor·ship·ing, or wor·ship·ping **wor·ships **or wor·ships

v. tr.

  1. *]To honor and love as a deity.
    *]To regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion. See Synonyms at revere1.

    v. intr.

    1. *]To participate in religious rites of worship.
      *]To perform an act of worship.

      Now, let me give you a lesson in the word worship, the first definition above, which you actually list as 2 definitions in order to misguide people, is in fact what Catholics do when they worship God. The second one, which you seem to have neglected or rather purposely not mentioned is what Catholics do when they worship Mary…then go further and see the the verb versions of the word worship and notice that both times the first definition purtains to deity or God which is what Catholics do when they worship God…but both also have a second definition and you’ll note that the synonym given for the second definition is revere…if you would like me to provide you with the definition for revere I would be happy to educate you my friend.

      Thanks,
      Rochus

    1. Great post Rochus! But I’ll bet you 100 bucks that he won’t listen.
 
Great post Rochus! But I’ll bet you 100 bucks that he won’t listen.
I disagree it was an uncharitable post.

rschermer2 you are coming to the party late. I know when a thread gets as long as this one you tend not to get all that has been posted. That should be reason enough not to attack. Your post is not done with much charity.
Now, let me give you a lesson in the word worship, the first definition above, which you actually list as 2 definitions in order to misguide people
I think he used the same on line dictionary I did and they list it as posted so he didn’t do it to misguide.
This is one answer he gave.
You are right I have left out the first definition, I did this because I am fairly certain that Mary was not British and thus the definition does not apply in this context. The 4th definition should be included in the discussion as it does describe the previous two prayers. Thank you for the clarification.
He was polite in his diolgue and believe me he won’t stay around with the on slaught you gave him. At this point he now has an excuse to leave and what have you accomplished?
This thread has been very good for me. A JW visitor asked me the same thing and I was able to dodge the question. When they return, I now know what to say. If he had been chased away, I would not have learned what I need to.
 
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Trogdor:
“For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” 1 Tim 2:5
Using your above argument your prayer goes from you to Mary who brings it to God. Hmmm. That would seem to be in direct violation of 1Tim 2:5 the meaning of which is very unambiguous.

Now I suppose you could say that we are asking Mary to pray to God for us just as we ask our brothers and sisters to pray to God on our behalf. The only problem with that logic is that:
  1. I do not get down on my knees and pray to my brother.
  2. My brother is not dead when I am asking him to pray for me
    (last time I checked the rapture had not occurred so I am
    still fairly certain that Mary is still dead)
I have still not seen anybody that has refuted this point. Has it been conceded?

P.S. Sorry I have not been able to post on this topic as often as I should, I am finishing up my senior year of Computer Engineering studies which is taking up the lion share of my time.
 
Ann Cheryl, I thank you for the above post in my defense, while we may not agree on many things you have shown nothing but civility to me in this debate and I thank you for it. I wish more people showed the kind of respect when debating a contentious subject that you do. While I am still not convinced as to the merits of your arguments you have gained my respect for your integrity.
 
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Trogdor:
I have still not seen anybody that has refuted this point. Has it been conceded?
Hardly. Jackman has answered part of it in post 47, and I answered the rest in post 54. To recap, in the verses before the the one you cite (1 Tim 2:1-4), Paul urges us to offer prayers for various persons. Our prayer (and that of the saints) for others is mediatorship–a *secondary * mediatorship to Christ’s, but still mediatorship. The sense of the passage is that Christ makes our mediatorship through prayer possible.We prayer TO the Father, THROUGH Christ, IN the Holy Spirit.
 
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