Worship

[Vox_Borealis]

Trogdor:

I have still not seen anybody that has refuted this point. Has it been conceded?

P.S. Sorry I have not been able to post on this topic as often as I should, I am finishing up my senior year of Computer Engineering studies which is taking up the lion share of my time.

Which point? You make three:

1. “Using your above argument your prayer goes from you to Mary who brings it to God. Hmmm. That would seem to be in direct violation of 1Tim 2:5 the meaning of which is very unambiguous.”

Your use of 1Tim 2:5 has been refuted a number of times on the thread. You may or may not accept the counter-arguments, but it has been addressed (and certainly not conceded).

1. “I do not get down on my knees and pray to my brother.”

But you could. Getting on one’s knees is a gesture of respect–a profound gesture in our society, but one of many signs of rspect we show others, such as calling someone sir or ma’am, nodding your head to an elder as you give him or her your seat on the bus, standing when a friend joins you at lunch, standing and applauding at the end of a performance, and so forth. You still seem caught up with the FORM without considering the function and intent. Consider the following: a man gets down on his knees, addresses a woman with lofty titles (“Light of my life, you are so beautiful”), and asks her to marry him. Is this worship? Hardly. The bended knee is just a profound sign of respect, devotion, and love. Who could object to kneeling out of love, devotion, and respect for the mother of God? However, this love and devotion does not equate to worship, as has been pointed out many times in other posts.

1. “My brother is not dead when I am asking him to pray for me
   (last time I checked the rapture had not occurred so I am
   still fairly certain that Mary is still dead).”

Yes, Mary is dead–so what’s the point? Catholics, as well as all other Nicene Christians believe in the communion of saints, and those who have died and are in heaven can hear us and help us. Perhaps you should peruse the excellent article on the Catholic Answers webpage that addresses these and related questions (including scriptural evidence): catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

 

[Ignatius]

Trogdor:

I have still not seen anybody that has refuted this point. Has it been conceded?

P.S. Sorry I have not been able to post on this topic as often as I should, I am finishing up my senior year of Computer Engineering studies which is taking up the lion share of my time.

It’s been refuted twice, Posts #48 and 54. However, you still have not answered my question, to wit: So, are you suggesting that it is latria or dulia? Do you know the difference?

Peace be with you.

 

[Ann_Cheryl]

Trogdor:

I have still not seen anybody that has refuted this point. Has it been conceded?

P.S. Sorry I have not been able to post on this topic as often as I should, I am finishing up my senior year of Computer Engineering studies which is taking up the lion share of my time.

When there are so many post, it is hard to take in all the answers.

Lets go back to your first post

Keep the above definition of worship in mind, and also keep in mind that we are to worship no person, idol, object etc. other than God. Now please tell me how the above does not constitute worship.

So keeping in mind the definition, I pointed out that the definition does not support your position. We do not say that Mary is a god or a goddess.

“For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” 1 Tim 2:5
Using your above argument your prayer goes from you to Mary who brings it to God. Hmmm. That would seem to be in direct violation of 1Tim 2:5 the meaning of which is very unambiguous.

Now I suppose you could say that we are asking Mary to pray to God for us just as we ask our brothers and sisters to pray to God on our behalf. The only problem with that logic is that:
1. I do not get down on my knees and pray to my brother.
2. My brother is not dead when I am asking him to pray for me
*(last time I checked the rapture had not occurred so I am *
still fairly certain that Mary is still dead)

I have to laugh at this. I am not sure it is applicable but I wanted a candy jar and in order to get it I got down on my knees and asked him for it. Do you think I was worshiping him? Not!

I did post an answer to this as did others.

 

[Ann_Cheryl]

Continued

Really? If you could provide the dictionary meaning of the word worship in 1905 I would gladly study it.

I got one, check it out:

Quote:
Worship (Page: 1666) Wor"ship (?), n. [OE. worshipe, wur&edh;scipe, AS. weor&edh;scipe; weor&edh; worth + -scipe -ship. See http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?word=Worth”]Worth

, a., and -ship.]

1. Excellence of character; dignity; worth; worthiness. [Obs.] *Shak.*A man of worship and honour. *Chaucer.*Elfin, born of noble state, And muckle worship in his native land. *Spenser.***2. **Honor; respect; civil deference. [Obs.] Of which great worth and worship may be won. *Spenser.*Then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. *Luke xiv. 10.*3. Hence, a title of honor, used in addresses to certain magistrates and others of rank or station. My father desires your worships’ company. *Shak.*4. The act of paying divine honors to the Supreme Being; religious reverence and homage; adoration, or acts of reverence, paid to God, or a being viewed as God. God with idols in their worship joined." Milton. The worship of God is an eminent part of religion, and prayer is a chief part of religious worship. *Tillotson.*5. Obsequious or submissive respect; extravagant admiration; adoration. 'T is your inky brows, your black silk hair, Your bugle eyeballs, nor your cheek of cream, That can my spirits to your worship. *Shak.*6. An object of worship. In attitude and aspect formed to be At once the artist’s worship and despair. *Longfellow.*Devil worship, Fire worship, Hero worship, etc. See under Devil, Fire, Hero, etc.

Worship (Page: 1666) Wor"ship, v. t. [imp. & p. p. http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?word=Worshiped”]Worshiped (?) ∨ Worshipped; p. pr. & vb. n. Worshiping ∨ Worshipping.]

1. To respect; to honor; to treat with civil reverence. [Obsoles.] *Chaucer.*Our grave . . . shall have a tongueless mouth, Not worshiped with a waxen epitaph. *Shak.*This holy image that is man God worshipeth. *Foxe.*2. To pay divine honors to; to reverence with supreme respect and veneration; to perform religious exercises in honor of; to adore; to venerate. But God is to be worshiped. *Shak.*When all our fathers worshiped stocks and stones. *Milton.*3. To honor with extravagant love and extreme submission, as a lover; to adore; to idolize. With bended knees I daily worship her. *Carew.*Syn. – To adore; revere; reverence; bow to; honor. Worship

This is from a 1913 Webster Dictionary, click here to read the entries. Take a look at the second definition of the noun form, “honor” and “respect.” Better yet, look at the very first:" Excellence of character; dignity; worth; worthiness." Never heard it used that way before, I guess the word evolved. How dare the English language change! The verb form also includes “to honor.”
Definitions are pointless if you continue to define them to suit your needs. I ask you to consider our clearly defined latin words of “latria” and “dulia” to describe these acts towards the saints, Mary, or God. After all, they exist to elucidate the nature as well as the intents of the action.

Dei gratia,
Greyhawk

 

[Ann_Cheryl]

have to laugh at this. I am not sure it is applicable but I wanted a candy jar and in order to get it I got down on my knees and asked him for it. Do you think I was worshiping him? Not!

Ooops! The him is my husband.

I very rarely get on my knees to pray. I usually pray on the go sort to speek. The only time I pray on my knees is in church. Going back to the definition how is being on one’s knees an act of worship?

 

[chadwilliams]

Thank you for providing a definition of Worship.

Keeping that in mind and knowing that we are to worship God and God alone, we Catholics do NOT worship Mary, nor does the prayer you cite illustrate that we worship Mary.

There are 4 types of prayer: Adoration, Contrition, Thanksgiving, and Supplication - ACTS.

Adoration is for God alone. This is worshipping God.

Contrition can be expressed to God alone, but it is commendable to express contrition for wrongdoing to the person you hurt. That is not worshipping the person.

Thanksgiving is likewise. We are certainly encouraged to give thanks to God, but we can also express thanks to others who do nice things for us. That is not worshipping people.

Supplication is when you are asking for something. We can ask for everything we will ever need from God alone, but we could also ask help from our parents, friends, or family. That is not worshipping them.

We are all family in the Communion of Saints! So, asking Mary to pray for you is similar to asking your friends to pray for your sick mother. Do your friends have any special connection to God that you don’t have? Surely you could pray “directly to God Alone” for your sick mother. But God tells us that we should pray for one another.

Also important to note. Even if you met a Catholic who said, “Catholics worship Mary.” Or, “Yes, I worship Mary,” you cannot say, “AHA!! See, this is proof that ALL Catholics Worship Mary.” Some of the possible explanations for that type of response would be:

1. The person truly does understand the meaning of Adoration/Worship and they still worship Mary. In this case, he/she is a heretic, and is not in good standing with the Catholic Church.
2. The person does not fully understand what is implied by Worship, and they are just meaing that they ask for prayers of supplication from Mary.

Also, it is very important to realize that just because a Catholic does something doesn’t mean that the Catholic Church allows that certain thing, or teaches that certain thing. Example, many “Catholics” feel abortion is OK. The Church certainly teaches that it is a Mortal Sin.

 

[chadwilliams]

Trogdor:

You are absolutly correct!!! I am restricting the meaning of the word “worship” to it’s 20th century meaning due to the fact that the Bible we use is a 20th century translation. If I took our modern translation of the Bible and replaced whatever words I wanted with archaic meanings I could prove just about anything!!!

Good point. The 20th century “definition” of the word has in fact changed. Worship also can mean “worthful” meaning it is full of worth. I heard this on Jimmy Akin’s Tuesday Q&A a few weeks ago.

Anyone know when that prayer was composed?

We should not use a 20th century definition to try to box in a practice that has been around since the beginning of the world!

Another poster had a good way to put it, but I’ll reiterate it here:

If someone said, “I lost my ***” in the days of Christ, it meant he lost his beast of burden.

In today’s secular, hedonistic world, it could certainly still mean that, but it also has a few other implications.

 

[Ann_Cheryl]

Good point. The 20th century “definition” of the word has in fact changed. Worship also can mean “worthful” meaning it is full of worth. I heard this on Jimmy Akin’s Tuesday Q&A a few weeks ago.

Anyone know when that prayer was composed?

.

This really is on point. I would offer anothr example. In the song When Johnny Comes Marching Home the line goes "and we’ll all feel gay when Johnny comes marching home. If we apply modern definition we have a whole different song than the one that was sung after the civil war.

You are absolutly correct!!! I am restricting the meaning of the word “worship” to it’s 20th century meaning due to the fact that the Bible we use is a 20th century translation. If I took our modern translation of the Bible and replaced whatever words I wanted with archaic meanings I could prove just about anything!!!

Hail Holy Queen in its current form comes from the 12th century
MEMORARE was popularized in the 15th century
These are not 20th century prayers This was a previous post. Did you miss it?

Consider this verse from Luke 14:10, (KJV):

Quote:
But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.

Do Protestants who use the King James version think that Jesus is saying that if they give up the highest seat at a banquet that their fellow guests will worship them? Of course not, because they know the word is being used in a somewhat archaic way. Same with Catholics and some traditional Catholic prayers. The KJV readers know what it means, and so do Catholics

 

[MariaG]

posted by Vox Borealis
3. “My brother is not dead when I am asking him to pray for me
(last time I checked the rapture had not occurred so I am
still fairly certain that Mary is still dead).”

Yes, Mary is dead–so what’s the point? Catholics, as well as all other Nicene Christians believe in the communion of saints, and those who have died and are in heaven can hear us and help us. Perhaps you should peruse the excellent article on the Catholic Answers webpage that addresses these and related questions (including scriptural evidence): catholic.com/library/Pra…_the_Saints.asp

Mary is NOT dead. She is alive in Christ.

:bible1: Mark 12:26-27 "But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of jacob”? 27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken."

Please, do not concede points that simply are not true. **Saints are not dead in Christ but alive in Christ **which is why we can have communion with them as part of the body of Christ.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Ann_Cheryl]

Please, do not concede points that simply are not true. **Saints are not dead in Christ but alive in Christ **which is why we can have communion with them as part of the body of Christ.

No one conceded this point in fact I quoted the same scripture you did. Other posters used additional scriptures. I am glad you reiterated the point

 

[Vox_Borealis]

MariaG:

Mary is NOT dead. She is alive in Christ.

:bible1: Mark 12:26-27 "But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of jacob”? 27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken."

Please, do not concede points that simply are not true. **Saints are not dead in Christ but alive in Christ **which is why we can have communion with them as part of the body of Christ.

God Bless,
Maria

I hope I did not give the impression that I was conceding the point–Trogdor’s stated that he did not pray to a person who was “dead”, and I took that to mean that the individual’s physical form was no longer with us and functioning. My father died a number of years ago and I have no problem using that phrase–his body ceased functioning and he’s buried. However, I do firmly wish that he is alive in Christ in Heaven, just as I firmly that believe the saints are alive in Christ and we are in communion with them.

So, what I was trying to do was reject the semantics of Trogdor’s argument to get to the theological meaning behind the words. However, I am sorry, that in so doing I slipped into some sloppy language in my argument.

 

[Ignatius]

Trogdor:

I have still not seen anybody that has refuted this point. Has it been conceded?.

It’s been refuted twice, Posts #48 and 54.

Now, Trogdor, you still have not answered my question, to wit: So, are you suggesting that it is latria or dulia? Do you know the difference?

Have you conceded?