Would anything make you seriously question the Catholic Church?

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This is, in fact, a serious question and one that deserves a sober response.

Fr. Gabriel Amorth said that the devil had infiltrated the highest levels of the church. Considering how deeply the sexual abuse scandals have gone, along with, for example, the behavior of Cardinal McCarrick (he was a cardinal, for pete’s sake; he was also my cardinal) I believe Fr. Amorth was correct.

That said, I am still confident that the Church has the entirety of revealed religious truth, and the sacraments.

What could make me seriously question the Church? I’ve actually thought about that. The following would qualify:

–I am troubled by Pope Francis’ leftist (perhaps Marxist) leanings and his (IMHO misplaced) critiques of capitalism and the west. These are however prudential matters about which we may disagree. However, my faith would be shaken if he or some later pope did something that would be totally contrary to Catholicism (like, say, denying the real presence). Would it come to that? In all likelihood that would never happen. But if the Church’s heirarchy has in fact been infiltrated by the devil, we could absolutely see “death by a thousand cuts” where little by little the Catholic Church has its positions/actions watered down/changed where it becomes unrecognizeable and/or loses its way.

Some might say that’s already happened.

Look, my “gold standard” for the Papacy is JPII. Could we see JPII welcoming/sanctioning the whole “pachymama”-thing? IMHO not in 1000 years. Having a close, friendly relationship with the communist government of China while arguably betraying Chinese Catholics? Same response. Supporting “Liberation Theology?” Ditto. Yet here we are…
 
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blackforest said:
Wow. I love art and music but wouldn’t dream of abandoning an entire theology just because somebody didn’t share my tastes in either.
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Well look at this thread! That sculpture is HIDEOUS! I have never seen it before! It us literally undermining people’s faith!
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I need help with the Pope's audience hall looking like a snake Moral Theology
Hi everyone. A while ago I saw somewhere that the Pope’s Audience hall looks like a snake on the inside, outside and in Jesus’s hair in the statue. And I hate saying this but it’s literally affected me so much. I don’t if it’s my anxiety over reacting or what. And I hate that this is happening because I literally feel like a complete idiot believing this. And the worst part is that I’m having doubts about the faith over probably just a coincidence. I don’t know what this post is, I guess I just …
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Lea101 said:
Anything that shows the Church changed in mind on something they said it was a settled issue. I don’t really have specific teachings in mind. Heck, they could even change its stance to something that aligns with my own views,I’ll still walk out or go to church as and when I please.
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It would have to be something as settled as, say, Transubstantiation, and by “the Church” it would really need to be the Pope and all the bishoos unanimously or nearly so.

Even a majority of bishops, as happened at the time of the Arian heresy, would not be enough.
 
MNathaniel said:
if they indisputably dug up Jesus’s bones (thereby disproving the resurrection), that’d do it.
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I’m not even sure that would do it for me.

Sorry for quoting from the highly theological genre of crime mysteries, but it brought to mind one of my favorites, PD James’ Death in Holy Orders, where part of the intrigue revolves around a papyrus purporting to be a 1st-century report of how the disciples stole and buried Jesus’ body.
(Surprise surprise, it turns out to be a clever fake.)

The Anglican priest keeping it is asked by the detective if it would change his faith, did it turn out to be genuine. The priest answers, “For one who every hour of his life has the assurance of the living presence of Christ, why should I worry about what happened to earthly bones?”

I wouldn’t say I don’t worry about earthly bones, because I firmly believe the resurrection was a historical event, but when I look at God’s presence in the Church, and in the saints, and to that unfailing presence in my own life, I don’t think even bones could make me think it was all a lie. There are just too many “fingerprints”, to keep in tone with crime mysteries, of the risen Lord everywhere. It would above all question my understanding of resurrection and make me think that I haven’t rightly understood what a risen body actually is, if it’s as different from what we now are as flowers in bloom are from the seeds.

That said, I’m convinced that our current understanding of what it means to rise from the dead is the correct one, and that Jesus’ bones will never be found.
 
Have you seen the Paul VI audience hall? It is seriously weird.
The art and architecture that the Church chooses is not by accident.
It’s supposed to teach and reinforce the truths of the faith.
It’s more than just whether I like or dislike something.
 
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No, and I am thankful for Vatican II, Pope Francis, and the direction that the Church is presently moving, such as the openness to other religions and new ideas, which I do not see as threatening our unique place in the world. I trust in the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and the good people that rise up to take on leadership roles in the Church. For me, the issue would be if I would question the Church if a future Pope regressed, closed ranks, and in effect tried to pull back and undo what has happened since Vatican II. Still, I would not question the Church, since experience shows that we often move forward in fits and starts.
 
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Nothing, I hope and pray, would cause me to question on Faith and Morals. I could not leave the Catholic Church because of the Blessed Eucharist - for me it would be to abandon Jesus.

I don’t have much trust in the human element of the Catholic Church at all.

Vatican II was a complete Joy. I could breathe again and realised what were for me temptations pre VII were pretty much on the right track. There is also much pre VII I can rejoice in with gratitude
 
The reign of Pope Francis, especially after around year 2, SERIOUSLY tested my faith. My foundations crumbled, soon I couldn’t make myself attend mass, regular confession, or regular prayer. Everything was sporadic, according to whether I had mustered enough motivation to do it at the time.

It also coincided with the entire collapse of my career and life plans. Not sure if it caused them, tbh, because I didn’t have/practice my old supports (seeking answers in prayer and being able to trust divine providence and having a felt love for Our Lord as well as a childlike closeness to the Blessed Virgin). All that crumbled and vanished. I started looking for and found mostly secular methods and support from psychology and “general spirituality” for lack of a better word. I experienced TRULY dark thoughts and for the first time in my life, I had a glimpse of how a person could start on the road to contemplating suicide. I NEVER used to understand how that was possible unless someone was being inhumanly tortured ancient-Rome-style and got desperate for escape.

Weirdly, throughout all of this, I retained an intellectual faith: knowing why the church was still likely true but being unable to embrace her. A kind of limbo. Many times I wanted (and tried) to “get up” and return but was incapable of it. I have known a tiny taste of my utter weakness and helplessness in mving myself to do what I thought would help me.

But God is Love. I have received back the gift of an experiential/felt faith. I am excited to practice it, no longer mostly because I want to avoid damnation (of course I do!) but much more because I’ve had a tiny taste of the desolation of not having closeness with God. I suppose I’m still motivated selfishly, but I daresay it’s in a much better way than before. I want to stay close to God because TRULY he is happiness, and this is not some cliche, and he is so not just in heaven but here on earth as well(!), and a fortress/shield from the despair and darkness of unmitigated worldliness. I do not intend to exchange this for anything.
 
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27lw said:
The art and architecture that the Church chooses is not by accident.
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Then what are you accusing them of deliberately trying to do? Choose your words carefully. There’s been a rash of Vatican-bashing here unsuitable for a Catholic forum.
 
BarbTh said:
Vatican II was a complete Joy. I could breathe again and realised what were for me temptations pre VII were pretty much on the right track. There is also much pre VII I can rejoice in with gratitude
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I’m glad VII strengthened your faith in this way.

It’s interesting to me that you frame the bit I bolded as a positive. For me, the very thing you mention is one of my greatest struggles.

When I have to subject my will and intellect to the Church, especially in areas where I start from a position of disagreement, it is horribly unsettling to me when the Church seems to ‘change’ in the direction of the things I used to believe in the first place. It ends up almost feeling like the Catholic Church is rebuking me for becoming Catholic and saying that what I believed before was better. I find it deeply disturbing when the Church seems to suggest to me that things I was tempted towards before (that were stumbling blocks on the way in, and I had to submit to the Church over in ways that involved real sacrifice) were “on the right track” to begin with. To me that undermines my trust in the Church and puts pressure on me to return to trusting my own judgement (and that of those around me) over that of the Church ‘today’, since appearances give the impression she might change to my old judgement ‘tomorrow’.

Just interesting to me that two different people can have such different responses to the same thing.
 
blackforest said:
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27lw:
The art and architecture that the Church chooses is not by accident.
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Then what are you accusing them of deliberately trying to do? Choose your words carefully. There’s been a rash of Vatican-bashing here unsuitable for a Catholic forum.
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When I look at Catholic and architecture of the last 50 years, it doesn’t build and reinforce my faith. Often it is very stripped down and spare. Stark to the point of minimalist. Or often just ugly and off-putting to most people. Uninviting. If that’s the message that the Church wants to put out, they’re doing a good job.
 
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After much discernment, I have decided to leave the Catholic Church.
 
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Hi MN - Thank you for sharing.
The Church is a living body. Where there is no change there is no growth. Things have changed in the Church and She will continue to change and grow, albeit very very slowly as Catholicism tends to be until She achieves Her fullness in Christ.
V II was a pastoral document - it taught nothing new in Faith or Morals or the essentials, as it were. What did change were non essentials to the essence of Catholicism. "In essentials, unity. In non essentials, diversity - and in all things, Love. (Sometimes attributed to St Augustine, but more likely possibly anonymous).
What I think happened was that non essentials were often regarded by us as the essentials. Many felt that the Church they loved was being taken from them because they held non essentials were in fact essentials.
I do very much agree that any reality can be seen differently from person to person and each is correct. However Ultimate Reality, to which all realities point, as it were, is Truth which never changes. We are journeying and we are the Church.
Hope that is not confusing! … and all as I see things only.:roll_eyes:
 
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Leaving The Church sometimes means the person’s concept of The Church. Leaving that can be a real stage of growth and maturity. I do hope and pray it will be that for you and you will return with much to offer and share.

God bless, Peace and Joy
 
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