Would it be better for me to get sterilized, or my husband?

[Robyn_p]

Please don’t get sterilized. I’m coming at this from another angle. My dad was not Catholic when he got sterilized. He got sterilized because of me. I have a genetic disease, the doctors said I would die at three. My dad didn’t want to deal with another one like me. He was scared, so he did it.

I can’t tell you how much that hurts. I feel betrayed. He didn’t want another kid like me. I sometimes feel like I must be some sort of terrifying burden if someone would endure a risky surgery just to avoid having another child like me.

This is hardly thought about, but the message it sends to the children already born is so hurtful and insulting. Like it would be better if we were never born.

By the way, my dad did convert and repented and wishes he never did it. He’s told me I’m not a burden. I have forgiven him. But the hurts still there and I don’t know if it will ever completely go away.

Please don’t put the children you already have through that! When they find out, there’s just a horrible feeling of not being wanted. Even if you don’t mean that, actions speak louder than word. And it hurts.

 

[cheezey]

Please don’t get sterilized. I’m coming at this from another angle. My dad was not Catholic when he got sterilized. He got sterilized because of me. I have a genetic disease, the doctors said I would die at three. My dad didn’t want to deal with another one like me. He was scared, so he did it.

I can’t tell you how much that hurts. I feel betrayed. He didn’t want another kid like me. I sometimes feel like I must be some sort of terrifying burden if someone would endure a risky surgery just to avoid having another child like me.

This is hardly thought about, but the message it sends to the children already born is so hurtful and insulting. Like it would be better if we were never born.

By the way, my dad did convert and repented and wishes he never did it. He’s told me I’m not a burden. I have forgiven him. But the hurts still there and I don’t know if it will ever completely go away.

Please don’t put the children you already have through that! When they find out, there’s just a horrible feeling of not being wanted. Even if you don’t mean that, actions speak louder than word. And it hurts.

I am so sorry for your hurt. I do not know the whole dynamic, but did he perhaps do it to give his whole heart and care to your needs and your needs alone? Just a thought.
May God Bless

 

[underacloud]

What did “Listener” say? Why was it deleted?

It wasn’t deleted. Here it is:

I think you need to talk to a priest. You are truly in dire circumstances if your husband is threatening to give the baby up for adoption. If one of you does get sterilized, it should be him, not you. Number one, it is a much simpler procedure for men. Number two, he is the one who said you should have been using birth control all along. He has free will, and this is apparently what he wants to do. You can’t really control what he does. If he decides to leave you, you can’t really control that, either. I also can’t see how you would have “full consent” if he decides to go ahead with this. I think that a priest could help you to see this, and I hope you will discuss this with a priest.

And a couple of replies related to it…

Please do not listen to Listener. S/he is wrong. Do not get sterilized or encourage your husband to get sterilized. Sterilization for the purpose of birth control is evil.

I don’t think that Listener meant to encourage sterilization, but merely that the OP may decide that it is prudent not to push the issue to breaking point.

If the husband insists on sterlilization, it should be he who gets it. The OP shouldn’t encourage this, but at some point she might determine, with appropriate counselling from her priest, that she could back off a little for the sake of family harmony and let her husband make his own choice (despite her objections). She will not bear any responsibility for his sin.

Actually, I’m surprised this hasn’t been discussed more in this thread. Given your husband’s attitude, it may be prudent to stop pushing this with him. You should not get sterilised yourself, but it may be time to stop insisting that your husband does not. You need not condone his getting sterilised, but merely recognise that pushing this issue further may do harm to your family. Talking this through with a trusted priest can provide some clarity around this consideration.

I’m sorry that you feel so stressed right now. Surprise pregancies can have that effect (I’ve been there). I’ll offer prayers for you and your family, and repeat my suggestion that you should discuss this with a trusted priest (rather than rely on internet strangers for your advice here).

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Please don’t get sterilized. I’m coming at this from another angle. My dad was not Catholic when he got sterilized. He got sterilized because of me. I have a genetic disease, the doctors said I would die at three. My dad didn’t want to deal with another one like me. He was scared, so he did it.

I can’t tell you how much that hurts. I feel betrayed. He didn’t want another kid like me. I sometimes feel like I must be some sort of terrifying burden if someone would endure a risky surgery just to avoid having another child like me.

This is hardly thought about, but the message it sends to the children already born is so hurtful and insulting. Like it would be better if we were never born.

By the way, my dad did convert and repented and wishes he never did it. He’s told me I’m not a burden. I have forgiven him. But the hurts still there and I don’t know if it will ever completely go away.

Please don’t put the children you already have through that! When they find out, there’s just a horrible feeling of not being wanted. Even if you don’t mean that, actions speak louder than word. And it hurts.

If you read all of the OP’s posts, it seems as if her husband may not have wanted ANY of their children, let alone this last one. She describes all 4 as “surprise” pregnancies, so…



Glad your father converted! That’s making something great out of a bad start!

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

Actually, I’m surprised this hasn’t been discussed more in this thread. Given your husband’s attitude, it may be prudent to stop pushing this with him. You should not get sterilised yourself, but it may be time to stop insisting that your husband does not. You need not condone his getting sterilised, but merely recognise that pushing this issue further may do harm to your family. Talking this through with a trusted priest can provide some clarity around this consideration.

This is a good point. If your husband has a vasectomy against your wishes you are not to blame. Naturally, God can not be duped, so you can’t get away with saying, “hey husband, go ahead and get it, and just tell people I didn’t want it.” But I would think that if you have ended up in arguments with your husband that have led to the level of anger that you are describing, you may have expressed your wishes sufficiently. If he were to go get a vasectomy, based on what he has said to you, it sure doesn’t sound like he’d be doing it because you wanted him to. It is possible that at this point you can say to him, “I am against a sterilization for either one of us and I am not going to do it, You are a free man and can do what you choose, but understand that I think our children are a gift, and sterilization will be bad for both of us, and bad for our marriage.” Please talk to a priest, and ask to what lengths you need to go to keep him from doing it. It may be that you’ve done enough, and that your husband’s belligerence on the issue is sufficient proof that he is not doing it for you.

Frankly, I don’t see why a person would choose to leave you (which would obviously be against your wishes) when he could go out and get himself sterilized instead. Of course, I do agree with the others that there is more going on here than just a fertility problem, and I would agree with the others who are encouraging you to see that the way he is currently treating you as unacceptable. I don’t have great advice about just how to deal with that. But I would like to say that while you should certainly pray for him, and while you should do what you can to encourage his faith, ultimately you shouldn’t feel responsible for the state of his soul. He is already putting it it in jeopardy by the way he is treating you and his baby (I don’t know how he treats your other 3 children), and will not be in a good position spiritually until his attitude changes. You need to focus on your own spiritual well-being, and let him own his own sins.

 

[KellyPalmer]

If my husband got a vasectomy, I would be less concerned about whether I was to blame and more concerned about his eternal soul.

 

[mt_gooseberry]

I wasn’t going to get embroiled in this but I feel like I must say something.

I also have PCOS, have used Prometrium, and use Creighton. I have some observations and questions about what the OP has said regarding her NFP practices.

The OP says that she is using Creighton observations…with PCOS…took Prometrium…getting dry observations…and also using internal checks…all four kids were “surprises.”

Have you ever worked with your instructor to troubleshoot your surprise conceptions?
OP, I know this is annoying, but ask yourself, Do you ALWAYS wipe BEFORE and after using the bathroom? Never skip, not even ONE time? You may wonder why just one time would matter, but I have often identified my Peak based on one single observation of fertile CM. If I had missed that one wipe, I would have missed my ovulation. Do you check before and after bathing? When you get up in the night? Do you check right before bed, and BEAR DOWN? Again, often my only fertile observation is from when I bear down. Very frequently I would consider myself dry (as you claim to have observed when you got pg) if I didn’t bear down. And do you use flat tp? My fertile observations are sometimes of the most miniscule amount, that I would miss them if I was using crinkled tp.

Now, one of the problems with Creighton and PCOS is the false Peaks. I personally find the “double peak” rules to be inadequate for PCOS, so I temp to confirm ovulation. I don’t recall if you are already doing this or not, so if you aren’t, try it, and if you are, good idea.

Also, you should never, ever use internal checks with Creighton. Fertile CM is defined as stretchy, clear, OR lubricative. Sometimes you will get the following observation: you wipe and it is slippery, but you can’t get anything off the tp. That is lubricative, and considered fertile. But if you were doing internal checks, your observation would be what the STM calls “watery.” It only feels lubricative when you wipe yourself with tp. It doesn’t feel lubricative on the fingers. So if you do internal checks, and only have a small amount of this CM, you might not realize that you are fertile. That is why you should never mix the CM techniques of two methods!

I’m sorry if it feels like I am beating a dead horse, but as someone who has PCOS, I can easily see how I could mistake being fertile for “dry” if I wasn’t being super careful.

 

[Ophelia23]

What a heart breaking thread over all. This poor sweet unborn baby deserves love. Period.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

If my husband got a vasectomy, I would be less concerned about whether I was to blame and more concerned about his eternal soul.

Well in her original post, she posed the question (paraphrased), “would it be better for me to commit this mortal sin in order to protect my husband from committing it instead?”
My point is that while it is admiral to want to protect your spouse from sin, you are also not able to be fully responsible for it. At some point you have to let even your spouse take responsibility for his own soul if he refuses to be open to your help.

 

[KellyPalmer]

Well in her original post, she posed the question (paraphrased), “would it be better for me to commit this mortal sin in order to protect my husband from committing it instead?”
My point is that while it is admiral to want to protect your spouse from sin, you are also not able to be fully responsible for it. At some point you have to let even your spouse take responsibility for his own soul if he refuses to be open to your help.

That’s not what she said. She’s trying to figure out which of the two of them should do it and asked if she should do it Instead of him under the guise of being able to get off the hook through confession. Surely she (and you) doesnt think her husband would be free from committing mortal sin for insisting on this regardless of which one of them is to undergo the actual surgery?

Furthermore, I don’t get this whole idea of “letting” him do it. If a spouse gives any type of approval for this, they become an accomplice to sin. She can’t control him. He can do it to himself even while she is insisting they use NFP.

The two become one. And no man (or woman) hates himself. I’m assuming a spouse would care about her husbands eternal soul as much as her own even if he ultimately has his own free will.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

Furthermore, I don’t get this whole idea of “letting” him do it. If a spouse gives any type of approval for this, they become an accomplice to sin. She can’t control him. He can do it to himself even while she is insisting they use NFP.

The two become one. And no man (or woman) hates himself. I’m assuming a spouse would care about her husbands eternal soul as much as her own even if he ultimately has his own free will.

I suppose you are quibbling with the wording I used, and saying that the wording I suggested constitutes an approval. I disagree, but this semantic is not worth bickering over. I don’t think the OP needs to watch other posters bicker among themselves.

There is room in the Church for a woman whose spouse chooses to disregard the Church’s rules, and naturally this would assume that the woman wouldn’t argue against his sin continually at all moments. It would also assume that the dissenting spouse would somehow (verbally, perhaps) find out that his wife has decided to stop the verbal arguing for the time being. Exactly what words should be used, and exactly when that moment is reached where it is a moral option to stop fighting and “let” the spouse do what he chooses, is an intricacy that likely requires the counsel of a trustworthy priest.

 

[ffg]

The problems in this situation are bigger than having a child. And not anything the amateur shrinks on here can help with.

Using a web page for quasi-counseling is not helping get your situation figured out.

Go get real help today.

 

[KellyPalmer]

I suppose you are quibbling with the wording I used, and saying that the wording I suggested constitutes an approval. I disagree, but this semantic is not worth bickering over. I don’t think the OP needs to watch other posters bicker among themselves.

There is room in the Church for a woman whose spouse chooses to disregard the Church’s rules, and naturally this would assume that the woman wouldn’t argue against his sin continually at all moments. It would also assume that the dissenting spouse would somehow (verbally, perhaps) find out that his wife has decided to stop the verbal arguing for the time being. Exactly what words should be used, and exactly when that moment is reached where it is a moral option to stop fighting and “let” the spouse do what he chooses, is an intricacy that likely requires the counsel of a trustworthy priest.

Remember, I didn’t quote you. I simply added something to the discussion that no one else had…something very important that the OP should consider especially when people are casually suggesting that she has to let her husband do this with no mention of how that will effect him. Not sure why you quoted me in objection to quibble over matters that any Catholic should agree on. Yes, she should see a Priest about this.

 

[sdeco]

If you read all of the OP’s posts, it seems as if her husband may not have wanted ANY of their children, let alone this last one. She describes all 4 as “surprise” pregnancies, so…

Where on earth did you get that idea?! We always wanted kids. We just wanted to be able to plan them. My husband adores our kids. But we cant keep having surprises.Its BECAUSE he loves our kids that he wants to make sure they get the attention they deserve.

 

[Ophelia23]

Where on earth did you get that idea?! We always wanted kids. We just wanted to be able to plan them. My husband adores our kids. But we cant keep having surprises.Its BECAUSE he loves our kids that he wants to make sure they get the attention they deserve.

With all due respect, this is backward thinking. We can’t speak for your husband, clearly. But having another child will not cause the other three to not get the attention they deserve. I promise you. It takes work, but you can do this.

You are clearly coming from a place of fear, anxiety, and high stress in this thread. But please, do not wish the death of your sweet unborn child. It is not the best thing that could happen right now. And no matter how much you can belittle what harm a miscarriage does to a mother’s heart, please know that it is a loss. A great loss. And whether you get to meet your baby now or not until the next life, you are now and always will be this child’s mother. That is not something that just occurs with birth. You are this child’s mother. Please, no matter how much fear rests in your heart, don’t speak of your child in that manner. I am praying for your conversion of heart in this regard.

In regards to your original question, I do have a follow up question. Please know that I mean this with utmost love, respect, and genuine concern: what are you hoping to get from this thread? You have everyone here on your side with regards to how your husband is behaving, and you are also receiving sound Catholic advice. What is it you are hoping to learn or gain? Please let us know. So many of us keep checking in on this thread because we simply want to help you, help your husband, help your children and most importantly help your unborn baby.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Where on earth did you get that idea?! We always wanted kids. We just wanted to be able to plan them. My husband adores our kids. But we cant keep having surprises.Its BECAUSE he loves our kids that he wants to make sure they get the attention they deserve.

I apologize for the assumption, but when you say all of your children were “surprises,” and that your husband wants you to get sterilized now, as he did after your last delivery, you can see how it is easy to make that mistake.

Your husband’s logic is very flawed, and I am sorry that you cannot see that. He wants to have fewer children than you have. He would have wanted to stop completely by sterilization before you got pregnant this time. Instead of rejoicing for the new baby, he is bullying you into a mortal sin. That does not sound like a very loving husband and father to me.

I have heard this, “Children need more attention, so we need a smaller family” from many quarters. It’s actually the opposite. Having siblings can be one of the greatest gifts you can give a child. But I am not going to argue that point with you.

You’ll be in my prayers. I will repeat that if my husband stated that our child should be adopted out after birth, I would kick him out of the house and file for separation, at least.

 

[The_Bucket]

Where on earth did you get that idea?! We always wanted kids. We just wanted to be able to plan them.

Welcome to reality. You can’t control it. Not perfectly anyway.

At least 40% of all pregnancies are unplanned/mistimed/etc. That statistic probably dips a bit lower for married/committed couples, but keep in mind the vast majority of them are using artificial contraception. Also keep in mind that that still leaves a very significant minority of married couples who use contraception that end up with an unplanned pregnancy.

The idea that we can somehow have absolute control over nature is laughable. If you want absolute control over not having children, don’t have sex. Otherwise, you’re rolling the dice. While contraception provides you with a pair of immoral loaded dice, it’s not a guarantee.

Its BECAUSE he loves our kids that he wants to make sure they get the attention they deserve.

That is nonsense. He has a pretty faulty sense of love if that’s what he thinks. “I need absolute control over my sexual life in order to love my kids properly.” That doesn’t even make any sense.

If you mean that the lack of control leads to anxiety… I have to tell you that sterilization is not going to help. That’s just going to perpetuate the idea that he’s got control of his life when he doesn’t. God is the one in control. Not us. Sure, we are called to be responsible, but being responsible is not the same as having mastery over our lives. We are to be good stewards of His creation while surrendering our wills completely to Him.

Any time we fail to surrender our wills entirely to the will of God we are doing wrong. And I’ll be the first to admit that I do wrong pretty frequently because of that!

He’s creating a twisted logic for himself and I’m sorry that you’re being wounded because of it. What happens if he gets a vasectomy and you end up pregnant again? Dude is going to be out of his mind, probably accuse you of adultery and will be way more likely to actually follow through with threats of abandonment and/or forcing this child into adoption.

And if you think that’s not something that cannot happen, may I remind you that vasectomies have a failure rate of between 0.5% to 1%. Think that’s low? That’s the “perfect use” failure rate of IUDs and NFP as well. “Typical use” rates for NFP are between 10% and 25%. The vast majority of “surprises” in NFP are the result of user error and/or not caring anymore, but there are real surprises. Just like there are real surprises with the pill. And tubal ligation. What happens if you get a “real surprise” with a vasectomy?

A man that has threatened you with abandonment and made threats about forcing his own child that he created with his wife into adoption is not a man with a lot of love in his heart. Period.

 

[thewanderer]

Where on earth did you get that idea?! We always wanted kids. We just wanted to be able to plan them. My husband adores our kids. But we cant keep having surprises.Its BECAUSE he loves our kids that he wants to make sure they get the attention they deserve.

I know that I don’t know your particular situation, but if this feeling of children needing attention is accompanied by some idea that this is impossible if you have more than two or three kids I can tell you that is complete bunk. Having six siblings has been amazing for me. I can’t imagine coming from a family with only one or two siblings… it is a very saddening thought for me actually because my siblings have been such an amazing source of joy and strength for me, and my family is not the only larger family that I know where the children love the fact that they have so many siblings. Larger families do have a different dynamic, but personally I think that so long as it is a loving environment that is actually a good thing. I love the dynamic of larger families, there is so much life, activity, and love (not to say that life activity and love don’t exist in small families, its just in a different way). So if you are writing off a larger family becuase you think it is bad for the children please do realize that that just isn’t true. Yes, I have known one larger family where some of the kids felt as though they did not get enough attention from their parents, but they had close to 10 kids and the mother had health issues. I know a fair number of large families and they are the only ones I know of who ever felt as though they did not get enough attention from their parents. My fiance is from a family with 9 kids and I cannot possibly imagine a happier or more beautiful family than theirs. Please don’t allow the falsehood that having more than two or three kids is bad for the children involved to cause stress in your marriage about having more children.

Praying for you and your family :console:

 

[thewanderer]

Welcome to reality. You can’t control it. Not perfectly anyway.

At least 40% of all pregnancies are unplanned/mistimed/etc. That statistic probably dips a bit lower for married/committed couples, but keep in mind the vast majority of them are using artificial contraception. Also keep in mind that that still leaves a very significant minority of married couples who use contraception that end up with an unplanned pregnancy.

The idea that we can somehow have absolute control over nature is laughable. If you want absolute control over not having children, don’t have sex. Otherwise, you’re rolling the dice. While contraception provides you with a pair of immoral loaded dice, it’s not a guarantee.

That is nonsense. He has a pretty faulty sense of love if that’s what he thinks. “I need absolute control over my sexual life in order to love my kids properly.” That doesn’t even make any sense.

If you mean that the lack of control leads to anxiety… I have to tell you that sterilization is not going to help. That’s just going to perpetuate the idea that he’s got control of his life when he doesn’t. God is the one in control. Not us. Sure, we are called to be responsible, but being responsible is not the same as having mastery over our lives. We are to be good stewards of His creation while surrendering our wills completely to Him.

Any time we fail to surrender our wills entirely to the will of God we are doing wrong. And I’ll be the first to admit that I do wrong pretty frequently because of that!

He’s creating a twisted logic for himself and I’m sorry that you’re being wounded because of it. What happens if he gets a vasectomy and you end up pregnant again? Dude is going to be out of his mind, probably accuse you of adultery and will be way more likely to actually follow through with threats of abandonment and/or forcing this child into adoption.

And if you think that’s not something that cannot happen, may I remind you that vasectomies have a failure rate of between 0.5% to 1%. Think that’s low? That’s the “perfect use” failure rate of IUDs and NFP as well. “Typical use” rates for NFP are between 10% and 25%. The vast majority of “surprises” in NFP are the result of user error and/or not caring anymore, but there are real surprises. Just like there are real surprises with the pill. And tubal ligation. What happens if you get a “real surprise” with a vasectomy?

A man that has threatened you with abandonment and made threats about forcing his own child that he created with his wife into adoption is not a man with a lot of love in his heart. Period.

Agreed

 

[The_Bucket]

I know that I don’t know your particular situation, but if this feeling of children needing attention is accompanied by some idea that this is impossible if you have more than two or three kids I can tell you that is complete bunk. Having six siblings has been amazing for me. I can’t imagine coming from a family with only one or two siblings… it is a very saddening thought for me actually because my siblings have been such an amazing source of joy and strength for me, and my family is not the only larger family that I know where the children love the fact that they have so many siblings. Larger families do have a different dynamic, but personally I think that so long as it is a loving environment that is actually a good thing. I love the dynamic of larger families, there is so much life, activity, and love (not to say that life activity and love don’t exist in small families, its just in a different way). So if you are writing off a larger family becuase you think it is bad for the children please do realize that that just isn’t true. Yes, I have known one larger family where some of the kids felt as though they did not get enough attention from their parents, but they had close to 10 kids and the mother had health issues. I know a fair number of large families and they are the only ones I know of who ever felt as though they did not get enough attention from their parents. My fiance is from a family with 9 kids and I cannot possibly imagine a happier or more beautiful family than theirs. Please don’t allow the falsehood that having more than two or three kids is bad for the children involved to cause stress in your marriage about having more children.

I’m sure you don’t mean this, but I just want to caution anyone for misinterpreting here and thinking that you or I or anyone is advocating for her to go and have a boatload more kids just because it’s been good for you or your fiance… or that it was great for say, my in-laws. Which it was.

I’d argue it’s a decidedly bad idea here, but that’s because her husband is not supportive. Not because having more children in general is a bad idea.

Financial concerns are real concerns. They are not something to be swept aside. Sometimes they are real and true impediments to having more kids now or even for an indefinite period. Sometimes they are just needless worries. No one can know which is the true case here or in anyone else’s situation. The only people who can make that call are the spouses in those specific situations.