Would more Protestants become Catholic if it were not for Mary?

[Della]

Mary is only mentioned 4 times in the Bible, and nowhere does it tell us to pray to her, or ask her to intercede for us in prayer to God Almighty.

Of course, we don’t base beliefs on how many times something is explicitly mentioned in the Bible. Nowhere is the doctrine of the Trinity defined in the Bible, and yet most Christians hold to it. Nor does the Bible define the two natures of Christ, that of fully God and fully man, but most believe in that, as well. Indeed, Mary’s title “Mother of God” or theotokos=God bearer was defined in the 4th century to defend Christ’s two natures from the Arian heresy that denied he is the incarnate God-man.

Yes, she is beloved because she is the mother of Jesus, but that’s all in the view of most Protestants. Mothers should always be revered, but not as queens of the universe or mother of God Himself.

Indeed, she is rightly beloved as the Mother of God. But who is the King of the Universe, but her Son, Jesus Christ. So, what does that make her? You see, all the Marian teachings tell us something about her Son or uphold some important doctrine concerning him.

There is only one God, there is only one Son, and there is only one Holy Spirit. Therefore, protestants do not believe in praying to anyone but God, or having statues of Mary and other Saints around all over the place. To most protestants, that in itself is putting other gods before Him, which is a sin.

So they don’t believe in asking other people to pray for them because there’s only one God? Do they have pictures of their loved ones? Do they worship those because they have them? The answer is: of course not. Well, Catholics don’t think of statues as idols because we don’t worship them, either. We only worship God not Mary or any other saint.

At least, as a protestant, that is what I was taught from a very early age. I am just trying to give you a protestant’s perspective. I am not trying to negate anything the Catholic Chuch teaches to its own parisheners, since that is their strong belief system.

Naturally. And we appreciate your consideration. Of course, many of us used to be Protestants of many kinds, so we understand all this.

…And I am not saying it’s wrong. It’s just hard for some protestants to understand because they were taught another way. Let’s just agree that it is simply a misunderstood belief due to ignorance, nothing else. I now see, after being on this forum, that it is not knowing that stimulates the controversy.

Then I wasted a lot of typing! . But, that’s all right. There are many who do not understand true Catholic teaching who may read my poor words and be enlightened by the truth.

 

[ServusInutilis]

No. We need not venerate any saint. But we do need to profess belief in all the Church teaches, including all the Marian doctrines and dogmas.

A veneration of Our Lady definitely is not necessary for salvation itself, it could be a conditional necessity. As Saint Louis of Montfort writes: “…just as the salvation of the world began with the Hail Mary, so the salvation of each individual is bound up with it.”

Nevertheless, the Catholicism as a religious system without the veneration of Our Lady would hardly be the Catholicism anymore. She is necessary part of the life of the Church, and expelling Her just for gaining several converts would be hideous.

 

[Della]

A veneration of Our Lady definitely is not necessary for salvation itself, it could be a conditional necessity. As Saint Louis of Montfort writes: “…just as the salvation of the world began with the Hail Mary, so the salvation of each individual is bound up with it.”

This is what I mean by our faith being incarnational. Mary is an essential part of our salvation because God chose her for this role. To deny this is to deny Christianity. :yup:

Nevertheless, the Catholicism as a religious system without the veneration of Our Lady would hardly be the Catholicism anymore. She is necessary part of the life of the Church, and expelling Her just for gaining several converts would be hideous.

Absolutely. They’d be converting to what they already have–a truncated version of the truth.

 

[JRKH]

I think people often forget that most people are “born into” a certain religious denomination, and that they are taught certain ideology and theology from a very young age. What we are taught as children becomes what we believe to be the truth. Different protestant faiths and/or denominations teach children that the Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists, etc. do this or that and it is wrong to believe “their” way.

Yes - the Catechism deals with this and as Catholics we appreciate the many gifts and charisms found in non-Catholic communities.

Growing up in a protestant church, I was taught that one prays only to God in the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord. We were taught that praying to anyone else was putting other gods before Him. Therefore, praying to Mary or other Saints was a sin. We didn’t see the need to go through Mary or a Saint of this or that to ask God for help or to praise Him

.
And the Catholic Church does not require it either…A Catholic can go their whole life never asking a saint for intercession and still remain a good Catholic.
The matter of “putting other gods before Him” is the real sticking point between the catholic and protestant view…Gentle conversation can often resolve this misunderstanding.

We were also taught that the Pope and priests were taking too much upon themselves as men to forgive our sins. Saying “Hail Maries” over and over did not forgive us of our sins because only God can do that.

Well since Christ Himself instituted the sacrament of Reconciliation (confession) - and this is recorded clearly in Scripture…I don’t see how our protestant brothers can make this objection…

With regard to the Eucharist (Communion), we were taught that it was a very blessed and honorable thing, and only those baptised in the names of the Holy Trinity could partake. When taking of the bread and wine (body and blood of Christ) we were to pray fervently to God and praise Him for His mercy and grace.

This is a very Catholic view…

Another big difference was baptism. We were taught that each individual must accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal savior, and that only then would they be baptised. They must have gone through strenuous bible study with a learned scholar (minister/elder) in the church to know the importance of this, and how this decision would affect them for the rest of their lives because it is a promise to God to throw out their old sinful ways, be washed clean, and risen again as anew person who is forgiven of all sin.

Another point where are simply not that far apart…The only issue here would be infant baptism…Time for more gentle conversation

We were taught to love all people as we love ourselves, and to go out into the world to tell all of the Good News of Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection on their behalf. We were taught that THE CHURCH is comprised of all people who have devoted themselves to Jesus, and to do and act like Christians in everything we do. How else are non-believers supposed to WANT to come to Christ? To me, if all they see is a bunch of people arguing over who’s right and who’s wrong about how we should love the Lord, then they would just say “forget that” and “I don’t need more hate in my life.”

AMEN and ALLELUIA Brother…
The problem comes in when we fail to do what you describe above…and a part of that MUST BE a profound desire for unity within the body. Christ prayed fro such unity. St Paul and St Peter Exhorted us in their letters to such unity…
Such splintering in the body of Christ is painful to our Lord and also makes evangelization difficult.

My point is that people are very protective of what they believe to be the Truth based upon what they were taught since childhood, or as adults who had no juvenile training. So we should just love each other, no matter what, and teach everyone about God’s endless love for us. People are going to react to what they see more than to what they hear, just like little children do…and we are all God’s children.

Am I wrong? Or, doesn’t the Bible teach us to love one another and work together?

Amen - Love must be at the core…and if we Love as Christ wishes us to Love, then - as I pointed out above, a desire for true and profound unity will burn in our hearts.

Peace
James

 

[jimmy]

This is what I mean by our faith being incarnational. Mary is an essential part of our salvation because God chose her for this role. To deny this is to deny Christianity. :yup:

Absolutely. They’d be converting to what they already have–a truncated version of the truth.

That isn’t incarnational theology. Incarnational theology centers all theology around the incarnation. ‘God became man so that man might become god’ is the sum of all theology, and all theology returns to it. The eastern saints spoke of the world in terms of sacrament or mystery. All of creation is incarnated and becomes a source of knowledge and grace. Icons can be seen in this light.

And I agree that the dogmas can’t be undone at this point. That doesn’t make it any better that they were defined though. It only shows that the CC has abandoned the Augustinian position ‘unity on essentials, freedom on non-essentials.’

 

[Randy_Carson]

Mary is only mentioned 4 times in the Bible, and nowhere does it tell us to pray to her, or ask her to intercede for us in prayer to God Almighty. Yes, she is beloved because she is the mother of Jesus, but that’s all in the view of most Protestants. Mothers should always be revered, but not as queens of the universe or mother of God Himself.

**
Mary as Gebirah and Queen Mother
Taken from The Crucified Rabbi: Judaism and the Origins of Catholic Christianity
By Taylor R. Marshall

The royal and messianic Kingdom of David held its capital in Jerusalem, beginning with King David ca. 1004 B.C. and was eclipsed in 586 B.C. with the capture of King Zedekiah and the forced exile of those Jews who were still alive. Prior to the tragic Babylonian exile, the true King of Judah and heir of David sat enthroned in Jerusalem. Moreover, there were two other important figures alongside the Davidic king in the messianic court of Jerusalem. Next to the king, the second most important person in the Kingdom of Judah was the Gebirah. This Hebrew title translates literally, “Mighty Woman” and refers to the mother of the Jewish king. Most translators render *Gebirah *as “Queen Mother.”

This Jewish *Gebirah *possessed a powerful influence over the kingdom. This power and authority flowed from her status as the mother of the Davidic king, not from her own personal importance. Rightly understood, the Queen Mother held a political office ans signified the legitimate genealogy of the king. King Solomon the Wise instituted the formal place of the Queen Mother when he ascended to the throne of his father, King David. One of the first things King Solomon did after his enthronement was to place a throne at his right hand and enthrone his mother as the Gebirah:

12 So Solomon sat on the throne of his father David; and his kingdom was firmly established. 13 Then Adonijah son of Haggith came to Bathsheba, Solomon’s mother. She asked, “Do you come peaceably?” He said, “Peaceably.” 14 Then he said, “May I have a word with you?” She said, “Go on.” 15 He said, “You know that the kingdom was mine, and that all Israel expected me to reign; however, the kingdom has turned about and become my brother’s, for it was his from the LORD. 16 And now I have one request to make of you; do not refuse me.” She said to him, “Go on.” 17 He said, “Please ask King Solomon—he will not refuse you—to give me Abishag the Shunammite as my wife.” 18 Bathsheba said, “Very well; I will speak to the king on your behalf.” 19 So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. The king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat on his right. (1 Kings 2:12-19)

King Solomon rose to greet his mother and bowed down before her—not because he worshipped her as a goddess, but rather because as King he understood the honor due to the Queen Mother. Her presence in the court signified that Solomon was the legitimate heir of King David because she literally served as the flesh and blood link between father and son. Give the importance of genealogical dynasties, the office and role of the Queen Mother existed in many other cultures, as well. A similar office of a *Gebirah *was also honored in the northern kingdom of Israel. “We are going down to visit the princes and the family of the queen mother” (2 Kings 10:13).

Jeremiah highlighted the place of preeminence held by the Queen Mother by the end of the Davidic Kingdom when he wrote: “Say to the king and to the queen mother: Come down from your throne” (Jer 13:18). The end of the Davidic reign from Jerusalem is signaled by the dethronement of the Davidic king and his mother. The Queen Mother was so important that the end of the kingdom meant that she must also be deposed.

We see here that it is quite natural for Catholic Christians to honor the Blessed Virgin Mary. Her son is the true Davidic King and she is rightly enthroned at his right hand as the *Gebirah *and Queen Mother of the Kingdom of God (The Crucified Rabbi, Marshall, Taylor R., p.53-54).

 

[Randy_Carson]

There is only one God, there is only one Son, and there is only one Holy Spirit. Therefore, protestants do not believe in praying to anyone but God, or having statues of Mary and other Saints around all over the place. To most protestants, that in itself is putting other gods before Him, which is a sin.

Is all prayer worship, pray tell?

When we speaking of prayer to God and when we say we’re praying to a saint, we’re talking about two very different types of prayer. However, we use the same word for both in English.

Prayer to God includes worship which is never given to saints while prayer to the saints can include honor that is their due but never worship. Part of our difficulty in understanding one another when speaking of prayer is simply due to semantics.

According to a dictionary definition of “prayer”, the word can mean worship of God, but it also means petition or intercession given to a man. This latter definition is what Catholics mean when they speaking of praying to a saint.

In former times, speakers of Old English would often use phrases such as “Pray tell” or “I pray thee” in everyday speech when speaking to one another. An example of this is found in the King James Version of the Bible which was written in Old English. In 1 Kings 20, we read the following exchange between King Solomon and his mother, Bathsheba:

Then she said, “I desire one small petition of thee; I pray thee, say me not nay.” And the king said unto her, “Ask on, my mother: for I will not say thee nay.”

While this language may sound strange to our modern ears, we can see from this example that one person, speaking to another person, uses the word “pray” in a manner which obviously does not mean communication with God alone.

 

[JonNC]

It’s not just Mary, but the Pope, the Deuterocanon, Purgatory, Intercession by Saints, the
idea that you need to confess to a priest, (granted maybe a little of bad events in history),
Transubstantiation, Apostolic Succession (technically same as Pope), TRADITION (yikes
the Protestants loathe “Tradition” !!!), and so many other things.

This is another example of trying to define “protestants”, when there is no “protestant” communion.
The pope - there would be nothing wrong with the pope, the Bishop of Rome, were he to exercise his primacy as was done in the early Church.

The Deuterocanon - Nothing wrong with the Deuterocanon if one recognizes the historic disputes regarding them. Read them, use them liturgically. They provide great insight into the time between the OT and NT.

Purgatory - Read the recently released dialogue document between Lutherans and Catholics, *The Hope of Eternal Life *

Transubstantiation - in that it is a reasonable human expression of the real presence is fine. To bind the conscience of the believer to it makes no sense.

Intercession of the Saints - we know that the saints intercede (pray) for us, the question is should we practice Invocation of the Saints.

Confession to a priest - Lutherans do, so do Anglicans AFAIK

Apostolic Succession - Many Lutherans have it, Catholic recognition of it notwithstanding

TRADITION - Yikes! Lutherans accept the seven ecumenical councils, and the ancient creeds. There is nothing wrong with Tradition.

Perhaps a bit more specificity about who you are commenting on would be helpful.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

The first Marian doctrine was not dogmatically defined until 1854 I believe. Protestants had been in rebellion against the Church for several hundred years before that.

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but the doctrine of the Holy Theotokos was defined at the Council of Ephesus.

Jon

 

[Izdaari]

I was reading through some other posts on here and it got me to thinking: If Protestants do their research and study theology, I think that many of them would come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is the true Church. However, many Protestants believe (mistakenly) that Catholics worship Mary.

Do you think that more Protestant Christians would convert to Catholicism if it were not for our veneration of Mary?

If so, what can “we” do in a spirit of evangelism to either educate or correct their misguided notions of our veneration?

I have no particular problem with Mary, though I don’t buy the unique Catholic Marian dogmas. Still, that’s not what keeps me away, except perhaps as a minor contributing factor. My issues have more to do with universal jurisdiction, papal infallibility, no women as priests, no married priests, the theology of the body (which makes no sense to me), etc. (And no, I am not here to debate any of those issues)

 

[jmcrae]

Actually, “Mediatrix of all Grace” is a really tricky title. It is in reference to her bringing forth the Savior (all Grace). As far as I know it has been a doctrinal teaching of many popes and saints but has not been proclaimed dogma. I personally think that if a title causes that much confusion with our separated brethren then let’s just forgo it. Mary has enough titles.

It is also in reference to her being the Spouse of the Holy Spirit.

From what I have recently been given to understand, there are some mind-blowing implications to that little tidbit of information.

 

[Della]

That isn’t incarnational theology. Incarnational theology centers all theology around the incarnation. ‘God became man so that man might become god’ is the sum of all theology, and all theology returns to it. The eastern saints spoke of the world in terms of sacrament or mystery. All of creation is incarnated and becomes a source of knowledge and grace. Icons can be seen in this light.

The point of what I was saying is that without Mary, without her conceiving and bearing Christ in her womb there would be no incarnational anything. Her “fiat” was just as binding as Eve’s disobedience. She spoke her consent for all humanity when she agreed to bring us our Redeemer and Savior.

And I agree that the dogmas can’t be undone at this point. That doesn’t make it any better that they were defined though. It only shows that the CC has abandoned the Augustinian position ‘unity on essentials, freedom on non-essentials.’

Augustine would not say that defining of dogmas in any way violates his words. The Church never decides matter of faith and morals based on man’s perceptions or on whims. It is done after careful consideration and in the due course of human events. It matters not at all who disagrees or doesn’t like it.

 

[JonNC]

=kmcarl56;11152808]Mary is only mentioned 4 times in the Bible, and nowhere does it tell us to pray to her, or ask her to intercede for us in prayer to God Almighty.

The problem with this is that Invocation has been practiced for centuries, in both the west and the east. Millions upon millions of Christians have found great comfort in asking the saints to intercede for them. While scripture provides no command, example, and promise regarding it, that doesn’t necessarily mean that Christians are sinning by doing so.

Yes, she is beloved because she is the mother of Jesus, but that’s all in the view of most Protestants. Mothers should always be revered, but not as queens of the universe or mother of God Himself.

To deny that she is the God-bearer, the Holy Theotokos, puts one in the position of at least questioning the Incarnation. If Christ was both fully man and fully God at His conception, then indeed the Blessed Virgin carried and gave birth to God. OTOH, no one is saying she gave birth to God the Father, or the Holy Spirit.

There is only one God, there is only one Son, and there is only one Holy Spirit. Therefore, protestants do not believe in praying to anyone but God, or having statues of Mary and other Saints around all over the place. To most protestants, that in itself is putting other gods before Him, which is a sin.

The college I went to had a statue of Martin Luther in front of the administration building. No one I know thinks Luther a god. St. Mary is not a god, neither is St. Peter, or any other saint. And no Catholic believes that. Having statues of saints is a reminder of the grace of God, and the good works they did in His service.

Jon

 

[jimmy]

The point of what I was saying is that without Mary, without her conceiving and bearing Christ in her womb there would be no incarnational anything. Her “fiat” was just as binding as Eve’s disobedience. She spoke her consent for all humanity when she agreed to bring us our Redeemer and Savior.

Augustine would not say that defining of dogmas in any way violates his words. The Church never decides matter of faith and morals based on man’s perceptions or on whims. It is done after careful consideration and in the due course of human events. It matters not at all who disagrees or doesn’t like it.

The IC and the Assumption are both completely unessential, and ultimately irrelevant to salvation. But the CC dealt the need to attach an anathema to it. Now to even doubt these doctrines in your mind leads to spiritual wreck according to the CC. But the CC felt the need to anathematize those who disagreed or doubted. So, yes they abandoned Augustine on this matter. I wouldn’t be surprised if they next defined 1+1=2, then they could anathematize all computer engineers that questioned them.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

The holy Mother of God should not be a sticking point between Lutherans and Catholics. We honor the blessed Virgin Mary, believe she is the holy Theotokos, are OK with the immaculate conception/ assumption into heaven and view Our Lady as only second to Our Lord Jesus who prays for us.

Otherwise this becomes a trivial discussion.

 

[JRKH]

I have no particular problem with Mary, though I don’t buy the unique Catholic Marian dogmas. Still, that’s not what keeps me away, except perhaps as a minor contributing factor. My issues have more to do with universal jurisdiction, papal infallibility, no women as priests, no married priests, the theology of the body (which makes no sense to me), etc. (And no, I am not here to debate any of those issues)

Actually we DO have married priests…not terribly common…but they do exist - and at lest some of these are Anglican priests who have come over as part of the Anglican Ordinariate.

As for the matters of universal jurisdiction and papal infaillibility - these are really the core ones…whoever can get past these will find everything else to be no problem…
And interestingly - these are quite biblical.

Peace
James

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

This is another example of trying to define “protestants”, when there is no “protestant” communion. (Click to Read More…)forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif

It should be no surprise that Lutheranism and Anglicanism are similar to the Roman
Catholic Church in so certain ways, being very early descendants of the Church, but
neither represent the entirety of Protestantism. It is essentially a process of religious
evolution (in so far as progressive change), and Lutheranism was only one step away
from the True Church.
All Hell broke loose after that (Thank You Luther !).

 

[EvangelCatholic]

It should be no surprise that Lutheranism and Anglicanism are similar to the Roman
Catholic Church in so certain ways, being very early descendants of the Church, but
neither represent the entirety of Protestantism. It is essentially a process of religious
evolution (in so far as progressive change), and Lutheranism was only one step away
from the True Church.
All Hell broke loose after that (Thank You Luther !).

In case you haven’t noticed but Lutherans have pro-actively engaged the Vatican more than any other Christian denomination [even Orthodox] for over 50 years. Some of us consider ourselves within the Roman Catholic church as a cousin reconciling a 500 year old grievance. Martin Luther did not want anything but integrity from Pope X; it was a tragic circumstance that Lutherans want to resolve and unite with La Papa.

 

[Protestor]

If there was anything prior to this that is important to what I have to say direct me there.

Like I said in another post the catholic theories about Mary are what is keeping me from joining your church. I would probably comprise a lot of other beliefs I hold different except this one. I have spent countless hours researching this one subject and stopped about 1 year ago because I realized that there is not a premise or combination of premise that I have not heard or read that have convinced me that your propositions are correct. I wish I could have done my research subjectively but I cannot not on this subject. I would say we could comprise but then you would loss what I think is the best quality of the catholic church. Which is it’s bold views and it’s uncompromising stance on them. I love that you guys think that the Pope cannot err ex-cathedral and you stand behind that 100%. Do I think you are wrong, yes, but who am I.

Never been to or heard of a mass that had contemporary worship either which is more what I like.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but the doctrine of the Holy Theotokos was defined at the Council of Ephesus.

Jon

Ninja Catholic.:nunchuk: