Would You Attend This Mass?

[jwinch2]

I wouldn’t want a long hymn at the offertory but a brief chanted antiphon from the Graduale would be fine. The Roman Missal doesn’t include an offertory antiphon, so you have to get it from the Graduale. You probably know this already. I’ m going for plenty of reflective silence!

A great story about a parish which was in decline and a priest who made some similar moves that you are contemplating was recently shown on EWTN.

Here is the trailer:
heavenmeetsearth.tv/

The entire show can be viewed here:
Part 1 - youtube.com/watch?v=49hM5Ri5t-E&feature=youtu.be
Part 2 - youtube.com/watch?v=seQ67LOR8-k&feature=youtu.be
Part 3 - youtube.com/watch?v=pcQ75AN7drE&feature=youtu.be
Part 4 - youtube.com/watch?v=5P7ErOOZWRo&feature=youtu.be

I believe you to be on the right track Father in terms of providing for a sense of the sacred in Mass.

+Pax

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

My church has offered of few Masses that are similar to what you are describing, also in the OF:
—A male-only choir chanted all of the sung parts of the Mass. I don’t believe the offertory was done in silence, but with a chanted antiphon, there would be plenty of time for silence also. If the GIRM encourages some form of music, I would prefer to go with what is encouraged - what I described above would be my preference.
—Ad Orientem for Liturgy of the Eucharist. Liturgy of the Word facing the people, of course - we did this as well, and I loved it.
–Use of communion rail (if available) to receive kneeling, on the tongue. Otherwise kneeler for those who wish to use it when receiving - our church did this. My knees are bad, so I appreciated the announcement that anyone who needed, could stand at the communion rail, and still receive on the tongue. ***It would be very important to me to have someone holding a paten under the chin of the person receiving - I have dropped the host twice now while receiving on the tongue and therefore, I only receive on the tongue now when there is a paten to catch it.
—Chanted Latin Ordinaries (Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Agnus Dei), other prayers in vernacular. We do this (not the creed) at every Sunday Mass, and I really miss it when I have to sing them in English. Also the Kyrie done in Greek. As for the Creed, when we chant it at Mass, it tends to be a little chaotic sounding, and often goes off pitch, so I prefer to speak the creed - either way, I particularly would want it to be in English, so that I could be more mindful of what I am professing. I also like the (English) chanted version of the Our Father.
—No communion hymn, just chant communion antiphon+ but post-communion reflection sung by choir or cantor - totally like that idea, as long as the GIRM allows it.
—Lots of silence (offertory, communion) rather than filling those times with hymns - I wouldn’t eliminate an antiphon that exists for that purpose, but would just allow there to be spaces of silence AS WELL.

***My comments are about my preferences is such a Mass was to be on a regular basis. I would love attending a Mass like that. Although, I admit that as a female person who loves to sing at Mass, I might start missing that part of it a bit.

 

[Sarabande]

I’d definitely attend. That kind of mass really appeals to an introvert, like myself. lol! That said, I’d still like to attend masses which have polyphonic masses and motets. I guess I can go to a cathedral or a special parish for that.

I do have to say, though, that a parish in my area tried this and it did get a lot of pushback. They missed their hymns, polyphonic masses and motets, although they always did chants twice a month before all of this. What they eventually did was that they found a book which published all of the antiphons with old, traditional hymn melodies and it actually worked out to be a good compromise.

 

[agnes_therese]

I would SO love to see more silence during Mass! I think it’s high time I finally visited South Dakota.

Right now I am Parochial Vicar in my parish. Probably in a year I will be a pastor and able to make some significant liturgical choices . I would like to offer an OF liturgy that uses legitimate options that are not often used. I am interested if you would be would desire to attending this type of iturgy, and why/why not

1. No hymns: instead we chant the entrace antiphon and communion antiphon. Silence during the offertory.
2. Ad Orientem for Liturgy of the Eucharist. Liturgy of the Word facing the people, of course
3. Use of communion rail (if available) to receive kneeling, on the tongue. Otherwise kneeler for those who wish to use it when receiving
4. Chanted Latin Ordinaries (Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Agnus Dei), other prayers in vernacular
5. No communion hymn, just chant communion antiphon+ but post-communion reflection sung by choir or cantor
6. Lots of silence (offertory, communion) rather than filling those times with hymns
7. Oh and a really awesome homiily 10-15 minutes with lots of energy and hopefully inspiring

What do you think?

 

[Joe_5859]

True enough. But for the kind of feedback I’m asking for, a more devoted and knowledgeable group, found here at CAF, is desirable. I suspect that some of the “typical Sunday Mass crowd” might need a little more coaxing and education to be accepting of these ideas!

Very true. Maybe you could roll out the changes in increments. But then, sometimes all at once can be better than dragging it out. I’m sure you’ll figure out the best approach.

 

[jwinch2]

What they eventually did was that they found a book which published all of the antiphons with old, traditional hymn melodies and it actually worked out to be a good compromise.

Do you happen to know what book this was? I am working on compiling some resources for our Pastor in the hopes of making some similar changes in one of our weekly Masses. I have found many great resources for the Proper Antiphons, but I don’t recall seeing that one.

Thanks!

 

[englishredrose]

I would personally struggle with the silence and last year sought permission to read a book through communion because I couldn’t stop my own mental questions. Just 5 minutes but it was doing my head in too much… I got given permission (I altar serve as well as sing). I would find all that silence a challenge on a personal basis. That priest knows where I am at spiritually. Besides which I’m anglican and you wouldn’t have me as a communicant but that being stepped aside, I would find the silence too challenging. I think you need something in the communion because people would then become more aware of each other moving about etc.

However, whatever we or wouldn’t do may help you I don’t know but surely it is better to begin by seeking feedback to your own congregation? On here we are forever telling people to go to their priest. Now we are telling the priest to go to their people

When our present priest arrived he produced a questionnaire what allowed space for anything else… It wasn’t a long questionnaire before you panic. It had about 3 or 4 questions. It was the time when you guys had to change the Missal and we been using the Missal and he sought feedback. I don’t know how many replied but I know I nearly got everything I had asked for in my response. We no longer use the Missal and we no longer do the Angelus every single week. I don’t object to it totally but I am Anglican and not Catholic. But we are still doing the Hail Mary which I opt out but I don’t do said prayer anyway but that a different thing.

You could try a couple and see what response you get from the people who matter. Try it once a month so those people who don’t like it but don’t object to the idea to it can miss that month and find an alternative either laid on by you or they go elsewhere.

 

[opus101]

Right now I am Parochial Vicar in my parish. Probably in a year I will be a pastor and able to make some significant liturgical choices . I would like to offer an OF liturgy that uses legitimate options that are not often used. I am interested if you would be would desire to attending this type of iturgy, and why/why not

1. No hymns: instead we chant the entrace antiphon and communion antiphon. Silence during the offertory.
2. Ad Orientem for Liturgy of the Eucharist. Liturgy of the Word facing the people, of course
3. Use of communion rail (if available) to receive kneeling, on the tongue. Otherwise kneeler for those who wish to use it when receiving
4. Chanted Latin Ordinaries (Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Agnus Dei), other prayers in vernacular
5. No communion hymn, just chant communion antiphon+ but post-communion reflection sung by choir or cantor
6. Lots of silence (offertory, communion) rather than filling those times with hymns
7. Oh and a really awesome homiily 10-15 minutes with lots of energy and hopefully inspiring

What do you think?

1. No Hymns: I would like this, but the use of hymns in moderation now and then would be fine with me, especially if they were closely related to the liturgical theme for the day and did not go on and on ad nauseum. No hymns at all, ever, is too drastic…even some Papal Masses have hymns. Don’t go overboard.
2. Ad Orientem: I probably would not like this, even though it is certainly not a bad thing.

3.Communion rail/kneeling/tongue: Although I agree that this is very reverent, I would not like this at all. People are living much longer these days, and there are many people who are unable to kneel.Personally, I haven’t been able to kneel since I was 29 years old due to kneecap problems. It makes things awkward for too many people to require this.

Maybe just an option for some people…an area with a rail.

As far as communion on the tongue, how could you require this? Visitors will be taken aback and won’t know how to receive on the tongue. I’m not even sure how to myself.

1. Chanted Ordinaries: I love this idea (if the translation is next to it). But , it might be a better idea to start with chanted vernacular ordinaries, then gradually add Latin parts.
2. No communion hymn: sounds great to me.
3. Lots of silence: I’m all for more silence. But “lots” of it might be awkward and make people feel uncomfortable.
4. Homily: It’s always good to hear a fine homily.

 

[CharlesinCenCA]

1. No hymns: instead we chant the entrace antiphon and communion antiphon. Silence during the offertory. *I would suggest going to Chicago and consulting with the FSSP pastor/vicars of St. John’s Cantius, as you have to prepare for contingencies: In Latin? Which type of Mass and what service book? English: service book. Secondly, in the first order of MS 1967, will all celebrants chant in those Masses in any language all orations according to the type of Mass? Will the congregation be oriented to chanting the Pater Noster/Our Father which also belongs to the first order? And lastly, and I think this is important: will the congregation be cultivated to sing or chant the ordinaries, and even the entrance propers in English or other vernaculars? I ask this knowing that provisionally, the propers are reserved for the choir/schola. But the emergence of Weber/Esquerra/Bartlett/Kelly English settings seem to cry out for congregational participatio activa. I believe there are those who argue that this was an eventual intent of Pio’s X, XI, XII as well.
2. Ad Orientem for Liturgy of the Eucharist. Liturgy of the Word facing the people, of course
3. Use of communion rail (if available) to receive kneeling, on the tongue. Otherwise kneeler for those who wish to use it when receiving
4. Chanted Latin Ordinaries (Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Agnus Dei), other prayers in vernacular
   *What about the psalm or gradual? Alleluia/Tract and sequences? Providing you are re-building your liturgical scaffold so profoundly, are you going to have your Director of Music teach lectors to cant the lessons, and will you and your deacons cant the Gospel, Passions, other orations?
5. No communion hymn, just chant communion antiphon+ but post-communion reflection sung by choir or cantor *Yes, the docs do say clearly this is a congregational hymn moment, but I don’t think you’ll hear complaints if they’re fully engaged in all the other aspects they’re supposed to enjoin.
6. Lots of silence (offertory, communion) rather than filling those times with hymns *Totally disagree. First choice option, even in vernacular Mass, have cantor/choir/schola chant the Offertorio from the GR/GS/GM. Have a choral motet directly set to that same Offertory antiphon text. Or another alius cantus whose content is clearly based upon textual elements in the day’s lessons. The congregation can reflect just as well during those. Silence is called for in specific moments in the GIRM. I’m not saying silence is “bad” during the Offertory, but I’m not sure cultivating an “open ended” period will generate a sacred silence.
7. Oh and a really awesome homiily 10-15 minutes with lots of energy and hopefully inspiring *Abso-freaking-lutely! This is the “missing link” for me and a topic which many catholics do not wish to confront. You go, father!

 

[Joe_5859]

3.Communion rail/kneeling/tongue: Although I agree that this is very reverent, I would not like this at all. People are living much longer these days, and there are many people who are unable to kneel.Personally, I haven’t been able to kneel since I was 29 years old due to kneecap problems. It makes things awkward for too many people to require this.

You do bring up a good point here. I think Communion rails are great. But telling 90 year old little old ladies that they have to come up and kneel to receive Communion might be a hard sell. Or, as in your case, you might not even know by looking at the person that they aren’t able to kneel. I’m sure Fr. Steven recognizes that there will be issues like this that need to be factored into the implementation process.

 

[Sarabande]

Do you happen to know what book this was? I am working on compiling some resources for our Pastor in the hopes of making some similar changes in one of our weekly Masses. I have found many great resources for the Proper Antiphons, but I don’t recall seeing that one.

Thanks!

I wish I did. They printed out the music and text in their programs each week, so I don’t remember the name of the book it was from. The music director is no longer there, either, so I can’t ask him. I do think this worked well. The melodies were familiar melodies for the the congregation because they mostly did only traditional hymns before that. The pastor also eventually permitted the director to have the choir at the one mass with choir sing motets, polyphony, etc. especially for communion and the mass parts.

 

[Tigg]

Sounds OK, other than the post-Communion hymn, which is supposed to be sung by all. In fact, it’s the only time, other than the Ordinary of the Mass, when the GIRM does not give the option for the choir or cantor to sing alone.

Which brings me to another question…is there not to be a specified time after Communion (even a moment) to enable us to privately thank the Lord in silence? It has always been my understanding we have an individual obligation to do just that. Yet in our parish the choir/cantor continues to sing until the vessels have been purified and we come to the dismissal. There is no moment of silence…ever!

 

[Gidge]

Right now I am Parochial Vicar in my parish. Probably in a year I will be a pastor and able to make some significant liturgical choices . I would like to offer an OF liturgy that uses legitimate options that are not often used. I am interested if you would be would desire to attending this type of iturgy, and why/why not

1. No hymns: instead we chant the entrace antiphon and communion antiphon. Silence during the offertory.
2. Ad Orientem for Liturgy of the Eucharist. Liturgy of the Word facing the people, of course
3. Use of communion rail (if available) to receive kneeling, on the tongue. Otherwise kneeler for those who wish to use it when receiving
4. Chanted Latin Ordinaries (Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Agnus Dei), other prayers in vernacular
5. No communion hymn, just chant communion antiphon+ but post-communion reflection sung by choir or cantor
6. Lots of silence (offertory, communion) rather than filling those times with hymns
7. Oh and a really awesome homiily 10-15 minutes with lots of energy and hopefully inspiring

What do you think?

Great ideas, Father. I have been to some N.O. Masses as you describe above.
The only thing I’d change is the homily, I’d have it run 30-40 minutes (or at least work towards that).

Maybe once this catches on, you could learn and say the TLM .

Best of luck,

Oremus pro invincem !

 

[Lormar]

Right now I am Parochial Vicar in my parish. Probably in a year I will be a pastor and able to make some significant liturgical choices . I would like to offer an OF liturgy that uses legitimate options that are not often used. I am interested if you would be would desire to attending this type of iturgy, and why/why not

1. No hymns: instead we chant the entrace antiphon and communion antiphon. Silence during the offertory.
2. Ad Orientem for Liturgy of the Eucharist. Liturgy of the Word facing the people, of course
3. Use of communion rail (if available) to receive kneeling, on the tongue. Otherwise kneeler for those who wish to use it when receiving
4. Chanted Latin Ordinaries (Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Agnus Dei), other prayers in vernacular
5. No communion hymn, just chant communion antiphon+ but post-communion reflection sung by choir or cantor
6. Lots of silence (offertory, communion) rather than filling those times with hymns
7. Oh and a really awesome homiily 10-15 minutes with lots of energy and hopefully inspiring

What do you think?

I’d be there in a heartbeat!

 

[Lormar]

Certainly we can all agree that children and babies should be at Mass whenever possible, and parents should do their best to prevent their children from disturbing other worshipers. We should not expect perfect behavior from children, nor lax behavior from parents!

 

[FrStevenJones]

Great ideas, Father. I have been to some N.O. Masses as you describe above.
The only thing I’d change is the homily, I’d have it run 30-40 minutes (or at least work towards that).

Maybe once this catches on, you could learn and say the TLM .

Best of luck,

Oremus pro invincem !

I offer the TLM in my private Masses. That will eventually be in the mix for public worship!

 

[1love]

The periods of silence might make me a little nervous because I have young children; however they have been able to handle TLM just fine in the past and it wouldn’t be enough to keep me from going to the Mass you described.

Once our pastor had a sore throat and his homily was only ten minutes long. I was disappointed. I like a long homily!

 

[Elizabeth502]

Father,

I hope you are taking note of the enthusiasm here. It is but a microcosm of the yearnings out there among the laity, many of whom just assume that you represent such a minority that their yearnings will not be met in their lifetimes. Please convey this to your brother priests.

And keep in mind that the majority of currently practicing Catholics have never even seen anything approaching a TLM, so they have no other option in their experience – until someone generously gives them an option.

Thank you for all of your faithful service to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

And may God richly Bless you.

 

[Phemie]

Which brings me to another question…is there not to be a specified time after Communion (even a moment) to enable us to privately thank the Lord in silence? It has always been my understanding we have an individual obligation to do just that. Yet in our parish the choir/cantor continues to sing until the vessels have been purified and we come to the dismissal. There is no moment of silence…ever!

The only person to blame for that is the celebrant. Before the Dismissal comes the Prayer after Communion with an opportunity for silent prayer.

There are lots of places built into the Mass for silence: each time there’s a “Let us pray,” after the readings, after the Homily, after Communion (the GIRM says that the Communion chant is to last until all have received Communion). There is nothing stopping the priest from sitting after the purification of the vessels and giving time for silent prayer. If he doesn’t do so at that time, then he should do so after the “Let us pray,” that comes before the Prayer after Communion.

 

[Phemie]

You do bring up a good point here. I think Communion rails are great. But telling 90 year old little old ladies that they have to come up and kneel to receive Communion might be a hard sell. Or, as in your case, you might not even know by looking at the person that they aren’t able to kneel. I’m sure Fr. Steven recognizes that there will be issues like this that need to be factored into the implementation process.

Oh, come on. 90 year old little old ladies used to kneel for Communion all the time when I was growing up, if they made it to the altar rail. Otherwise they knelt in their pew and were given Communion there.