Would You Attend This Mass?

[Joe_5859]

Oh, come on. 90 year old little old ladies used to kneel for Communion all the time when I was growing up, if they made it to the altar rail. Otherwise they knelt in their pew and were given Communion there.

Then I’ll leave you to ask them to do so.

I’m not saying it’s an insurmountable obstacle. But it does need to be considered. I would suspect people will raise that issue. If Fr. Steven wants to tell them to “offer it up”, I’ll leave that to his discretion.

 

[Joe_5859]

1. Oh and a really awesome homiily 10-15 minutes with lots of energy and hopefully inspiring

Several posters have been commenting on the length, so I’ll just put in my two cents and say that “lots of energy and hopefully inspiring” is more important to me than “10-15 minutes”.

I don’t really have a lithmus test for how long I think a homily should be. The writer in me does is always cognizant of the maxim “less is more”. So I don’t think a homily will always benefit by being longer. A lot depends on the priest. I recall one priest that I could listen to for hours and not be bored. But then I’ve known a few who need to wrap things up after 5 minutes else they begin to ramble and their message gets lost. 10-15 minutes does not seem unreasonably long nor unreasonably short.

 

[Zooman77]

I especially like the communion rail/kneeler idea. I was thinking about talking to our pastor about putting out kneelers to allow receiving while kneeling. Also I like the longer homilies with a lot of energy, we have a deacon(not at my parish, but in the diocese) who memorizes his homily and walks and jumps around up front. I like that idea it keeps you focused more.

 

[FrStevenJones]

Father,

I hope you are taking note of the enthusiasm here. It is but a microcosm of the yearnings out there among the laity, many of whom just assume that you represent such a minority that their yearnings will not be met in their lifetimes. Please convey this to your brother priests.

And keep in mind that the majority of currently practicing Catholics have never even seen anything approaching a TLM, so they have no other option in their experience – until someone generously gives them an option.

Thank you for all of your faithful service to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

And may God richly Bless you.

Yes, the enthusiasm has been noted. I’m sort of surprised, I wasn’t necessarily expecting this.

Re: when will things change? More young priests understand the need to make our liturgical atmosphere dramatically more reverent, but not enough! Once liturgies really start to change for the better, and when people vote with their feet, then more priests will take notice!!

 

[opus101]

Oh, come on. 90 year old little old ladies used to kneel for Communion all the time when I was growing up, if they made it to the altar rail. Otherwise they knelt in their pew and were given Communion there.

There were barely any 90 year old ladies at Mass until the past decade or so (around here). People were considered quite elderly even in their seventies not too long ago. Eighties was thought to be ancient.

You obviously don’t know what it is like to have knee problems, and God willing, you never will. Like another poster said, it is not necessarily something that is readily evident upon seeing someone walk. My orthopedic doctor told me to avoid kneeling at all costs. He said a tolerance for it cannot be built up, it can only cause further degeneration of the problem. Many people have this problem, and for some, the worst part is not the kneeling itself, but the near impossibility of getting back up again without falling.

 

[Gena]

I would attend a Mass like this by myself, on the rare occasion I go to Mass alone. I enjoy the sacred silence.

I would not bring my child to a Mass like this. My son is 9 years old and has autism, cognitive impairments, and vision impairments. Usually he enjoys going to Mass (some days are really bad and we don’t make it out of the house at all). He works very hard to control his behavior at Mass, but sometimes he fails. He doesn’t do well with stillness and silence. He talks to himself at times, anticipating what is coming next. Some days he dances during the Gloria and the Lamb of God. It’s not a matter of discipline; it’s a fact of his brain being wired differently. He experiences things differently and he expresses things differently. He will only receive communion in the hand, because he does not like having other people’s hands near his face. But he has an amazing faith and a deep relationship with The Lord.

It can be hard to find a parish community that is accepting of children with autism. I know many families who have left the Catholic Church because they were made to feel unwelcome. So I would appreciate the type of Mass you describe as one option. But I would hope the parish would also have the more usual type of Mass, which seems to be more accommodating for individuals with special needs.

 

[opus101]

Several posters have been commenting on the length, so I’ll just put in my two cents and say that “lots of energy and hopefully inspiring” is more important to me than “10-15 minutes”.

I have a real distaste for long sermons/homilies. The main reason is that, by the time I get home I can’t remember any of it at all! Stick to a main theme chock full of the truth, and avoid unnecessary length…it will be more memorable and useful to people.

 

[FrStevenJones]

There were barely any 90 year old ladies at Mass until the past decade or so (around here). People were considered quite elderly even in their seventies not too long ago. Eighties was thought to be ancient.

You obviously don’t know what it is like to have knee problems, and God willing, you never will. Like another poster said, it is not necessarily something that is readily evident upon seeing someone walk. My orthopedic doctor told me to avoid kneeling at all costs. He said a tolerance for it cannot be built up, it can only cause further degeneration of the problem. Many people have this problem, and for some, the worst part is not the kneeling itself, but the near impossibility of getting back up again without falling.

I don’t see this being a problem. If someone cannot or does not wish to kneel for communion, they may stand at the same spot where others would kneel. I think it’s sort of easy, no need for angst, priests need to be very flexible about such things!

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Right now I am Parochial Vicar in my parish. Probably in a year I will be a pastor and able to make some significant liturgical choices . I would like to offer an OF liturgy that uses legitimate options that are not often used. I am interested if you would be would desire to attending this type of iturgy, and why/why not

1. No hymns: instead we chant the entrace antiphon and communion antiphon. Silence during the offertory.
2. Ad Orientem for Liturgy of the Eucharist. Liturgy of the Word facing the people, of course
3. Use of communion rail (if available) to receive kneeling, on the tongue. Otherwise kneeler for those who wish to use it when receiving
4. Chanted Latin Ordinaries (Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Agnus Dei), other prayers in vernacular
5. No communion hymn, just chant communion antiphon+ but post-communion reflection sung by choir or cantor
6. Lots of silence (offertory, communion) rather than filling those times with hymns
7. Oh and a really awesome homiily 10-15 minutes with lots of energy and hopefully inspiring

What do you think?

I would attend a Mass like this. I might even prefer it.

I used to attend a 7PM OF Mass on a Saturday night. There wasn’t a cantor or any type of musical accompaniment so the antiphons in the missalette was used. It was referred to by some as the “dead” Mass but I liked the quiet.

 

[CradleJourney]

Hello, our moderator has kindly reopened the thread!

I am so pleased at so many positive comments you’ve made about this idea. Blessings on all who’ve posted! It is really useful for me, as a priest, to get feedback on thesesorts of ideas, frim the “people in the pews”.

With all due respect to you Father (and the same to those who agree with you smile) - No, I would not attend if I had any other option.

You lost me at no hymns since my “prayer language” is singing. I do not sing well. I do not sing loud. I do not attempt to cantor or join the choir. But singing music is what moves me, how I most strongly interact with God in prayer. That includes the Gloria. As I do not understand Latin and do not understand how to chant, I would feel quite lost compared to the sense of communal prayer and praise being offered to God that I feel now. To willingly attend a mass that doesn’t allow me that is not something I am capable of.

FTR - I have no objection to communion rails (though someone would have to teach me the etiquette), the silences, etc. I have no objection to the gradual inclusion of some Latin to preserve our heritage - provide instruction and explanation are given. I like to learn. But I wouldn’t be willing to forsake the songs and music that have moved me to tears, lightened my heart and lifted my soul. (And yes, some are the very hymns that most posters on here love to despise. )

I understand my views are not universal, but I also believe you want to hear from “everyone”. God bless!

 

[FrStevenJones]

With all due respect to you Father (and the same to those who agree with you smile) - No, I would not attend if I had any other option.

You lost me at no hymns since my “prayer language” is singing. I do not sing well. I do not sing loud. I do not attempt to cantor or join the choir. But singing music is what moves me, how I most strongly interact with God in prayer. That includes the Gloria. As I do not understand Latin and do not understand how to chant, I would feel quite lost compared to the sense of communal prayer and praise being offered to God that I feel now. To willingly attend a mass that doesn’t allow me that is not something I am capable of.

FTR - I have no objection to communion rails (though someone would have to teach me the etiquette), the silences, etc. I have no objection to the gradual inclusion of some Latin to preserve our heritage - provide instruction and explanation are given. I like to learn. But I wouldn’t be willing to forsake the songs and music that have moved me to tears, lightened my heart and lifted my soul. (And yes, some are the very hymns that most posters on here love to despise. )

I understand my views are not universal, but I also believe you want to hear from “everyone”. God bless!

Thank you, I appreciate your straightforward honesty!

 

[Usige]

Sign me up!!! Heck I might make the 10 hour drive to SD just to see an OF done that way. Bless you and all your brother priests that see a desire for a return of sacred silence in the Mass.

 

[liturgyluver]

Right now I am Parochial Vicar in my parish. Probably in a year I will be a pastor and able to make some significant liturgical choices . I would like to offer an OF liturgy that uses legitimate options that are not often used. I am interested if you would be would desire to attending this type of iturgy, and why/why not

1. No hymns: instead we chant the entrace antiphon and communion antiphon. Silence during the offertory.
2. Ad Orientem for Liturgy of the Eucharist. Liturgy of the Word facing the people, of course
3. Use of communion rail (if available) to receive kneeling, on the tongue. Otherwise kneeler for those who wish to use it when receiving
4. Chanted Latin Ordinaries (Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Agnus Dei), other prayers in vernacular
5. No communion hymn, just chant communion antiphon+ but post-communion reflection sung by choir or cantor
6. Lots of silence (offertory, communion) rather than filling those times with hymns
7. Oh and a really awesome homiily 10-15 minutes with lots of energy and hopefully inspiring

What do you think?

This sounds exactly like the Eucharist Service at the Anglican Church in my suburb. They use the Propers and the Missa De Angelis (but sometimes also chant the Creed to in English to Merbeke which sounds beautiful) but they have hymns at the Offertory and after Communion. They still have their high altar and communion rails and I don’t know why, but it works beautifully.

Would I like this list in my own parish? Well, some but not all. As to orientation, there is no high altar so it would just look ridiculous facing eastwards at a nave altar. And the introduction of nave altars pre-dated the other liturgical reforms (see Inter Oecumenici 1964 which said “In every church there should ordinarily be a fixed, dedicated altar which should be freestanding to allow Mass to be celebrated facing the people.”) People are free to receive on the tongue or in the hand and both are possible at a communion rail.

I would not like the hymns to be stripped out altogether in the way you described - at our church the choir sings the Introit and Communion chant but we also have a processional hymn, one at the offertory one after communion, and a recessional. Talking to fellow directors of music here, it seems that people have no connection or attachment to the propers and where they have been introduced have no desire to chant them - but having seen some of the hymn lists used in Catholic parishes in the US, I can understand why the situation there might be different there

Which Latin Ordinary settings would you use - the Missa De Angelis is fine and every parish should use it IMHO for at least part of the year - but it gets boring if it is never rotated. We use it once a month, once a month have a polyphonic setting and also use The St Anne Mass setting by James MacMillan (the latter is everyone’s favourite. The Missa Orbis Factor is one of the most deadly (and unsingable) settings I have ever heard.

I think silence during communion is powerful, and after the homily ,but why during the offertory? - I would not want to listen to people jangling their coins or opening their purses and wallets!

Good luck with your endeavours - it would be good to know what your parishoners think.

 

[ProVobis]

I would attend a Mass like this. I might even prefer it.

I used to attend a 7PM OF Mass on a Saturday night. There wasn’t a cantor or any type of musical accompaniment so the antiphons in the missalette was used. It was referred to by some as the “dead” Mass but I liked the quiet.

Good luck with silence at a 7PM Saturday night Spanish Mass with half of the church being young kids.

 

[Pulvis]

Please find your way to South Carolina!
Seriously, I like your ideas and some have been introduced in my Parish. I applaud your efforts to reinstate sacred silence into the Mass to allow for the focus to be on Christ and the Sacrifice, rather than the entertainment. I feel you may have an uphill battle though, with those who might believe this is an attempt to return to the pre Vatican II times. Sadly, most who will argue the most are the same ones who have never read Sacrosanctum Concillium and see what the Council Fathers actually wanted.
Good luck Father, and God Bless You.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Offertory chant is optional.

Also I don’t plan (normally) to have offertory procession, which is encouraged but not required.

Fr., I don’t quite understand why you would go whole-hog with the Ordinary parts, have chanted dialogues, and have the genuine Graduale Introit and Communio, but then leave out the Offertory. That seems to be an odd thing to do. I know you mentioned silence at this part of the Mass, but the Offertorys are very meditative pieces. They are unobtrusive and really add to the Mass. You say they are “optional.” Well, yes, just about everything in the OF re: music is “optional,” but to leave out the Offertory of all pieces doesn’t seem to align with the general spirit of what you are trying to do. To leave out the Offertory and not replace it with at least a motet or something seems very weird. Clearly, the preference is for a chant there.

 

[benjohnson]

You do bring up a good point here. I think Communion rails are great. But telling 90 year old little old ladies that they have to come up and kneel to receive Communion might be a hard sell.

At our communion rails we have several people that can’t kneel. Usually they stand close, and place one hand on the rail to steady their bones. It’s not a problem at all, and we rejoice they are able to come to the table.

 

[minkymurph]

Right now I am Parochial Vicar in my parish. Probably in a year I will be a pastor and able to make some significant liturgical choices . I would like to offer an OF liturgy that uses legitimate options that are not often used. I am interested if you would be would desire to attending this type of iturgy, and why/why not

1. No hymns: instead we chant the entrace antiphon and communion antiphon. Silence during the offertory.

I like hymns and love singing, but in my experience of Mass I am alone in that and if no one wants to sing its probably better not to have hymns. I like silence at Mass because I like the peace, but hard for young children to keep still and quiet.

1. Ad Orientem for Liturgy of the Eucharist. Liturgy of the Word facing the people, of course

Been to both and have no preference. I receive the Eucharist which is enough for me and I’m not hard to please.

1. Use of communion rail (if available) to receive kneeling, on the tongue. Otherwise kneeler for those who wish to use it when receiving

I think people should be able to receive kneeling if they want, but one should not have to.

1. Chanted Latin Ordinaries (Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Agnus Dei), other prayers in vernacular

Don’t mind. Latin prayers sang can be lovely, - experienced this in the Vatican. Love hymns sung in Latin but don’t mind.

1. No communion hymn, just chant communion antiphon+ but post-communion reflection sung by choir or cantor

Probably better if no one else sings. In many a Parish here only the choir sings anyway.

1. Lots of silence (offertory, communion) rather than filling those times with hymns

Like the peace of silence but don’t get hot under the collar about these things. Good to experience Mass in different ways and I’ll take it whatever way its going.

1. Oh and a really awesome homiily 10-15 minutes with lots of energy and hopefully inspiring

Depends who is giving the homily. If the priest is a good speaker and can hold people’s attention yes. If not, no.

Side note - I would attend a Mass in my Parish irrespective of what it was like because I want to celebrate the Eucharist. Outside my Parish I would go to the nearest one irrespective of what it was like. However, I would be disinclined to take my kids to a very traditional Mass because they get nothing out of it.

I have experienced Mass in very different ways. No problem with any of that and I like to experience it in different ways.

 

[quiet52]

This thread has been fun to read. I’ll share my thoughts.

Right now I am Parochial Vicar in my parish. Probably in a year I will be a pastor and able to make some significant liturgical choices .

When you become a pastor, I hope you will have a PV who will come on board with you! I once had a pastor who wanted to make immediate changes in a number of areas, and he wasn’t much of a team player. All he got was resistance to everything, mainly from parishioners who had been in the previous pastor’s inner circle. I liked that pastor, and his homilies, by the way. He was just new at pastoring.

I would like to offer an OF liturgy that uses legitimate options that are not often used. I am interested if you would be would desire to attending this type of iturgy, and why/why not

I wouldn’t mind attending this type of liturgy, even though I have some preferences.
I love Mass, and would not personally object to most of the changes you are considering. But I think the most important thing for you would be to discern how disposed Catholics in your area might be to change. In my area, which is very liberal, I think there would be a huge backlash to some of the changes.

1. No hymns: instead we chant the entrace antiphon and communion antiphon. Silence during the offertory.

I am wondering why you don’t like hymns. Granted, some music directors choose some “irritating” hymns from the OCF, but couldn’t you as pastor work with them? If you choose chanting the entrance & communion antiphons, I suggest they be “chantable” by the congregation, in English. You would probably need to print out the chants.

As to silence during the Offertory, I don’t think silence would promote reverence during this time. Practically speaking, it’s hard enough as it is for many congregants to not be distracted during the collection. It’s boring for the kids, maybe unsettling for toddlers. I think singing a singable hymn helps the congregation to remain focused in prayer, and to be reminded of what we are preparing for.

What irritates me is when the music goes on and on, even after the liturgical action has begun at the altar. It should stop before the priest receives the gifts.

Singing can be a GOOD help in lifting our hearts to the Lord, Father Steven!

All that being said, I do usually like the silence during weekday Masses.

1. Ad Orientem for Liturgy of the Eucharist. Liturgy of the Word facing the people, of course

No problem there! I recommend that you provide appropriate catechesis about it, on an ongoing basis, including an occasional bulletin note. Will you be asking your PV and visiting priests to do this also? If not, a practical issue would be to train the altar servers to train both ways.

I have attended the parish which offers the EF Mass a few times here – both ways are fine with me.

1. Use of communion rail (if available) to receive kneeling, on the tongue. Otherwise kneeler for those who wish to use it when receiving

Re: the rail, if your parish is wealthy, then go for it (budgeting priorities and attitudes by parish council are other issues). If no rail, I guess it depends on how much space your church has. Some parishes near me simply don’t have the space to add a kneeler without adding safety problems.

As for Communion on the tongue vs. on the hand, you might have some resistance (again, I don’t know your area). There would definitely be LOTS of resistance where I live. Would you allow the option for communicants to receive on the hand, if kneeling? Since the U.S. bishops’ conference allows Communion on the hand, I worry that your parishioners might start sending letters to your bishop. If there are many tourists in your area, well, you might bein for a bit of trouble I think! Sadly, there are a great number of Catholics who simply do not know how to receive holy Communion on the tongue.

1. Chanted Latin Ordinaries (Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Agnus Dei), other prayers in vernacular

I love these chants in Latin, but I took Latin classes when I was young. If you require this, please print them out, with the English translations, so that the congregants know what they are chanting. Please don’t have just the choir chant in Latin – allow the congregation to fully understand and participate in these important prayers. Maybe alternate weeks (between Latin and English)? I think the Creed should be simply recited at least occasionally.

BTW how about a little Greek? I love chanting Kyrie Eleison, Christie Eleison, Kyrie Eleison!

1. No communion hymn, just chant communion antiphon+ but post-communion reflection sung by choir or cantor

Re: no Communion hymn, I have the same thoughts I offered about allowing an Offertory hymn. Maybe you have a small congregation. But if it’s large, and distributing Holy Communion takes ten minutes or so, I think singing something singable can help communicants to not be distracted.

I prefer silence after Communion to singing. I appreciate it when the celebrant sits in his chair for a while in silent prayer, which is a good example to congregants struggling with reverence over distractions.

Re: post-Communion songs, there have been a few times over the years when my heart soared because of the choir’s song. But my more common experience is that the after-communion songs by the choir often seem more like a performance than an aid to prayer. Not to knock the gifts of the musicians – but with violins, drums, organ (which can be loud and overwhelming and thus distracting), “fancy” singing, etc. – it can be too easy to focus on the production instead of praying and appreciating our Lord’s presence. Then the guilt happens, for doing so.

(to be continued)

 

[quiet52]

1. Lots of silence (offertory, communion) rather than filling those times with hymns

This is standard during weekday Mass, but most weekday Mass-goers aren’t typical parishioners.

Silence might be difficult for many congregants, especially the poorly-catechized, the occasional Mass-attender, and the younger set. If you want to introduce silent times, I suggest you do this gradually, and explaining why with bulletin notes and an occasional comment during your homily time or before Dismissal. Maybe ask the musicians to provide a “short” song during these times, at least, allowing some silent time.

1. Oh and a really awesome homily 10-15 minutes with lots of energy and hopefully inspiring

We do appreciate awesome homilies.

I am hoping you are able to address the more “sensitive” faith topics into your homiles – about contraception, right-to-life topics (abortion, end-of-life decisions, euthanasia etc.), marriage, sexual morality (cohabitation, same-sex relationships, etc.), religious liberty issues, and abuse in its multiple forms.

I once had a pastor who is personality plus and a great speaker, never using notes, standing in front of the sanctuary – most parishioners liked his homilies and they liked him, but the homilies were always “safe” – and we would feel good for a while, without remembering what he said within a couple of days.

I am also thinking of a priest who is low-key personality-wise, and who always speaks from the ambo, glancing at his notes. He quotes from the Catechism, he explains the biblical context or history of the readings, he frequently explains the theology behind a concept in the readings when appropriate, and he has spoken on at least some of the above-mentioned “forbidden” topics. Most parishioners hang onto his every word – his dynamism is not based on personality or physical energy.

Then there are priests who read their entire homily (especially the immigrant priests), who don’t seem to engage much with the congregation. They do the best they can, but sometimes the homilies are “canned”, obviously taken from the Internet or some book. Some congregants make the effort to understand the messages through the thick accents or the lack of zeal, and some don’t bother to.

What do you think?

No matter what you decide to do as pastor, Father Steven, I strongly suggest that you teach about the changes (the reasons for your preferences). Don’t just “spring it” on the parish.

I would also suggest that you teach about the changes when you meet with your catechists and RCIA leaders, because they need to explain correctly and respectfully when they are asked about the changes.

Oh and a couple more things I’m considering: no offertory procession (optional in GIRM, but encouraged), no handshaking at sign of peace, and prayers of the faithful (optional in GIRM but highly encouraged) would be ommitted when Mass might run long, for example if there was a speaker at end of Mass or long announcements that day, etc.

I personally like the symbolic meaning behind the offertory procession. I like when different parishioners are asked to bring up the collection, wine and bread every Mass. It’s irritating though when the liturgical ministers do it – they’re there to serve, and the bearers of the gifts are not servers and they represent the people. Anyway Father Steve I’m kind of curious about why you don’t like this. (I’m not criticizing – there is no offertory procession in the EF or during OF weekday Masses here, which is fine).

Re: the sign of peace, my experience in my area is that the congregation will offer a sign of peace (with handshaking, slight bows, or a hand wave) no matter what, even during the Lamb of God. The pastor’s instructions in the bulletin and pre-Mass announcement were ignored during two severe flu seasons in past years. So, even though some of us would be singing or chanting the Lamb of God, along with the celebrant, we would be interrupted by people near us who wanted the sign of peace. I think you might need to offer some catechesis and constant instruction, if you decide to omit the sign of peace.

I like the Prayers of the Faithful, for parishioners who have died, for example, and especially if relevant to current events (right now, e.g., as requested by the USCCB, congregations in the U.S should be praying for marriage and for religious liberty, because of the HHS mandate and the upcoming SCOTUS decisions on marriage. I appreciate it when we pray for victims of catastrophic events such as earthquakes or giant floods – it reminds the congregation that we’re not at Mass just for ourselves, our prayers must be for the world). When I attend the EF, I do feel irritated about there not being any general intercessions during the Liturgy of the Word, and I usually kneel in prayer for several minutes after Mass, adoring the Blessed Sacrament and offering my prayer intentions.

I think if it becomes standard practice in your parish to omit these parts of the Mass when you have a speaker, then people might believe they’re not important parts of the Mass – or that the speaker’s message is just as important.

I also wish that priests shouldn’t feel so pressured about limiting Mass to 59-1/2 minutes, but that’s just me.

I feel like I’ve just attended a liturgy committee meeting – where are the cookies Father Steven?