Would you leave if the church mandated communion on the toungue and kneeling?

[Dan_Daly]

Read the GIRM for the US, standing is the norm, not kneeling.

As I said- kneeling is the norm for the Latin Rite of the Church- for the whole world.

Standing is the US norm, because the American Bishops have asked for and received permission from Rome that their norm may be at variance with the norm the Latin Rite as a whole.

No Catholic, in America or anywhere else, may be denied reception of Communion on the tongue or while kneeling, at least at a Latin Rite Mass.

Pax.

 

[TrueLight]

I would say he has not direct authority on the matter. He has influence that is for sure. He can sway the synod and the patriarch if he wants. But that is another matter. Also, I do not believe the Papacy is meant to be so. While the doctrine on Papal Supremacy states that the Pope has absolute and total and final authority in the Church, I have yet to see the Pope act on his own. He is always in consultation with the Bishops. So if the Pope would wish anything on any Eastern Church, he will speak with the Patriarch or Synod and make his request known, and leave it up to them. The Church is not a dictatorship. This is true even within the Latin Rite.

I don’t mean to derail the thread. But for the East is the Synod the equivalent of the magisterium?

So if the EF were to become a Rite and not a form, would it also have its ruling body or a Partriarch type?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I don’t mean to derail the thread. But for the East is the Synod the equivalent of the magisterium?

No, the magisterium is a teaching authority. Its not really a person or office or a group of people. The Synod is the Bishops of the Church coming together and discussing matters and making rulings. Kind of like Parliament.

So if the EF were to become a Rite and not a form, would it also have its ruling body or a Partriarch type?

No, the synod is for the Church, not the Rite. There are 14 Churches that bear the Byzantine Rite. Each one (ideally) has at least a synod.

 

[TrueLight]

No, the magisterium is a teaching authority. Its not really a person or office or a group of people. The Synod is the Bishops of the Church coming together and discussing matters and making rulings. Kind of like Parliament.

No, the synod is for the Church, not the Rite. There are 14 Churches that bear the Byzantine Rite. Each one (ideally) has at least a synod.

Ok. Thanks.

 

[ConstantineTG]

As I said- kneeling is the norm for the Latin Rite of the Church- for the whole world.

Standing is the US norm, because the American Bishops have asked for and received permission from Rome that their norm may be at variance with the norm the Latin Rite as a whole.

Again, this is not correct. The norm is dictated by the GIRM. The American Bishops never asked for it, the choice is given to them by the GIRM, as with any other Episcopal Conference in the world. I believe Australia also had made a choice of standing as the norm. There is no universal norm in the OF.

No Catholic, in America or anywhere else, may be denied reception of Communion on the tongue or while kneeling, at least at a Latin Rite Mass.

Pax.

Sure, but that has nothing to do with what is the norm or not.

 

[Little_One0307]

Ultimately; this statistic depends on your Catholic source.

However; from several sources I’ve seen the percentage of non-believing Catholics of the Holy Eucharist rounds out to be around 70%

Is it all that surprising? Was it not Jesus who said; when I return will I find Faith.

Yeah I did not know where to find that statistic. Yeah 70% is a lot. I know I was pretty floored by the figure to begin with.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

I’m not talking about you kneeling. Obviously there are people that are very aware of what is going on…and are very reverent regardless of how they receive.

I’m just trying to get everything to think for a moment…if the church mandates it at communion…sure…people will kneel…but will that really make them stop and think? Maybe…maybe not. We (at least in my parish) are mandated to kneel during the concencration…I’m not sure that makes a big difference…some people do it because they are told to do it.

The same as some people attend Mass because you are obligated to…not because they have stopped to realize the true worth of Mass…

You offered your opinion…I offered mine…

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

I most definitely would not however it would be nice if they brought back the rails for the elderly. Of course when it is time to kneel during Mass I’ll kneel even if I’d be kneeling on the floor (even if marble or hardwood).

 

[Dan_Daly]

Again, this is not correct. The norm is dictated by the GIRM. The American Bishops never asked for it, the choice is given to them by the GIRM, as with any other Episcopal Conference in the world. I believe Australia also had made a choice of standing as the norm. There is no universal norm in the OF.

You are mistaken. Communion in the hand is allowed by permission granted by Rome. That is why it is permitted in the United States and some other places, and NOT permitted elsewhere.

You have agreed with me that you can not be denied reception of Communion on the tongue- anywhere. You CAN be denied reception of Communion in the hand.

So which is the norm? That which you have a right to do anywhere around the world? Or that which you may only do if in a particular location which has a particular permission?

Pax and God Bless.

 

[ConstantineTG]

You are mistaken. Communion in the hand is allowed by permission granted by Rome. That is why it is permitted in the United States and some other places, and NOT permitted elsewhere.

You have agreed with me that you can not be denied reception of Communion on the tongue- anywhere. You CAN be denied reception of Communion in the hand.

So which is the norm? That which you have a right to do anywhere around the world? Or that which you may only do if in a particular location which has a particular permission?

Pax and God Bless.

You are drifting the conversation away. We are talking about standing and kneeling, not Communion in the hand vs. COTT. It is late at night, I’m tired too.

 

[hawkeye]

Anyone that would leave because of kneeling or standing would probably leave because the Priest looked at them side-ways, or their granny Hilda has the cold, so their heart wasn’t in it in the first place, or else those posters are baiting us ?

 

[tomas10]

Why don’t they just do it and get it over with.

 

[LSK]

If Rome dictates we pray standing on one foot and balancing a frisbee, that is how I will pray. If Rome dictates Mass is to be celebrated by priests dressed as clowns, that is the Mass I will attend. that is not going to happen because Rome is concerned at all times and places with worship as Christ himself has dictated in matter and form, and in the details he left to her decision, she is concerned with reverence and propriety. Obedience is the root of all virtue and all spiritual health, so I will obey.

anyone who answers this question yes is on the wrong forum and needs to hop on over to non-Catholic religions

every moment wasted on this discussion delights the Enemy because it is a moment directed away from Christ and toward self.

I’m with her…no, really…that’s me, standing right next to her - CATHOLIC OUT LOUD

 

[Paxvobis]

I say why is FORCED kneeling so important that you would embarrass those who cannot kneel, put them into positions where they have to have a “consult” with a priest before every service and make them feel like they have a HUGE SPOTLIGHT over their head over a personal preference that is honored already? You can kneel if you want, so KNEEL.

We who support the Church revoking the indult to the United States (and to other countries, for that matter) and making communion on the tongue while kneeling the de facto norm do not do so because we are lacking in charity or want to embarrass anybody. We want it brought back to increase awareness of the Real Presence. No less was said recently by a very high ranking Cardinal who is close to the Holy Father himself: Cardinal Antonio Cañizares Llovera, who said that receiving Communion kneeling and on the tongue “is the sign of adoration that needs to be recovered. I think the entire Church needs to receive Communion while kneeling.” He also said “What does it mean to receive communion in the mouth? What does it mean to kneel before the Most Holy Sacrament? What does it mean to kneel during the consecration at Mass? It means adoration, it means recognizing the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist; it means respect and an attitude of faith of a man who prostrates before God because he knows that everything comes from Him, and we feel speechless, dumbfounded, before the wondrousness, his goodness, and his mercy. That is why it is not the same to place the hand, and to receive communion in any fashion, than doing it in a respectful way; it is not the same to receive communion kneeling or standing up, because all these signs indicate a profound meaning.”

We support this to repair a perception that exists among the Catholic laity that the Eucharist is not the reality which the Church knows it is, namely the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ. It isn’t that it’s bad to receive standing and in the hand, but it’s better to receive the way that the Church has for hundreds of years. In describing particular Catholic practices, a writer for Newsweek recounted very poetically the experience: “Kneeling at the altar rail, their mouths pinched dry from fasting, the clean of soul were rewarded with the taste of God on their tongues.”

And so I say again, there’s no intent to embarrass anybody.

And when it comes to “you can kneel if you want,” surely you know that some parish priests have essentially ‘banned’ it in their parish, right?

Maybe they don’t feel it’s a silly reason.

They don’t and that is very, very scary.

 

[bmadamsberry]

Ultimately; this statistic depends on your Catholic source.

However; from several sources I’ve seen the percentage of non-believing Catholics of the Holy Eucharist rounds out to be around 70%

Is it all that surprising? Was it not Jesus who said; when I return will I find Faith.

Actually, Jimmy Akin has a blog post showing that the number is quite lower (40%, I believe). Still high, but not as horrible.

 

[bmadamsberry]

Actually he cannot. Unless he wants every Eastern Catholic Church to turn Orthodox in an instant

Please read back, we were talking about the Liturgical Spoon in the Byzantine Rite.

Yes, he can. While in practice the Pope does not directly interfere with Eastern Rite matters, he can in theory. So if he ever wanted to, he could directly intervene, even against the wishes of the Patriarchs. That is Papal supremacy.

Now, if he did something like that, there might indeed be a push back against him, ending with some Eastern Rite Catholics moving to the Orthodox Church, but that doesn’t change the fact that he can legitimately interfere and intervene in matters relating to the Eastern Rite. The Pope is Patriarch of the West, but he is also the leader of the Eastern Rites.

 

[bmadamsberry]

Well, not really. If the change came from our Patriarch and Synod, then we would accept it gladly (okay, so there would be some resistance, as with any change). The Pope is also (albeit not using the title but functionally he is) the Patriarch of the Roman Church. So he does have direct control over the Roman Rite, the same way the Bishops of each particular Eastern Church has over theirs.

He has direct control over the Latin Rite, but he also has direct control over the Eastern Rites (though he does not exercise that control often, out of respect for the traditions of the East).

For example, whenever a new bishop or Patriarch is named in the Eastern Rites, it has to go before the Pope for approval. If he wanted, the Pope could reject that nomination (but, again, he rarely does this out of respect for the Eastern Rites).

 

[TrueLight]

He has direct control over the Latin Rite, but he also has direct control over the Eastern Rites (though he does not exercise that control often, out of respect for the traditions of the East).

For example, whenever a new bishop or Patriarch is named in the Eastern Rites, it has to go before the Pope for approval. If he wanted, the Pope could reject that nomination (but, again, he rarely does this out of respect for the Eastern Rites).

Thanks for clarifying, because it seems as if the Pope does not have Papal Supremacy based on prior posts.

Is it just token power like the Queen of England has?

That is probably a complicated issue.

 

[bmadamsberry]

hanks for clarifying, because it seems as if the Pope does not have Papal Supremacy based on prior posts.

Is it just token power like the Queen of England has?

That is probably a complicated issue.

No, it is not token power like the Queen of England. However the Pope exercises the power, in regards to the Eastern Rites, like a token power like the Queen of England (which I think is a prudent thing for him to do, personally).

 

[TrueLight]

No, it is not token power like the Queen of England. However the Pope exercises the power, in regards to the Eastern Rites, like a token power like the Queen of England (which I think is a prudent thing for him to do, personally).

If the Pope were to insist on COTT even for the Eastern Rites, which would not be prudent, but let’s say he did. What I’m seeing Constantine say here is that probably the Eastern Churches would leave communion and go back to Orthodoxy.

So then what type of power is that?

And how is that different from Western Catholics who leave for the same reason?

I just don’t understand the double standard.