Would you renounce Jesus Christ in exchange for your child's life?

[JesusWept]

I know this sounds like sort of a sadistic question, and God forbid anything like this ever happen, but it really got me thinking…

If someone had a gun to your child’s head and said they’d shoot unless you renounced Jesus Christ - what would you do?

(Sorry if this has been brought up before, or if this is in the wrong section. My bad)

 

[graceandglory]

It is a hideous question.

I don’t know the answer to that.
I have thought of that question since I was a child, though. I think being raised Catholic, you learn about martyrs for our faith from a young age. I always believed I had the faith to die for my faith. To sacrifice my child’s life, though, like Abraham was willing to sacrifice his only son? I don’t know if my faith is that big. I think I would hope so. What about the Old Testament story of Rahab the harlot, who lied when hiding two spies, sparing their lives… What about the Christians who hid Jews during the Holocaust and lied about it?

Is lying to a murderer to save my child’s life comparable to renouncing Christ in my life?
I don’t think it is the same thing.

God will judge our hearts.

 

[Malia_Belen]

It’s impossible to renounce anything in this situation unless you wanted to renounce something before the situation occurred. Renouncement is more then just lip service…it’s a heart and thought thing too.

For example, if a father puts a gun to the head of his pregnant daughter’s boyfriends and tells him to say I do…he may say it but everyone knows he’s not really saying I do. He’ll be able to get an annullment(sp?) just as fast as the police could arrest the father. The only way he wouldn’t be able to get an annullment is if he truly wanted to marry her before the ceremony.

I think God would know that the person wasn’t really renouncing anything too.

At least that’s my opinion on the matter.

I hope it helps : )

 

[prodigalson12]

It’s impossible to renounce anything in this situation unless you wanted to renounce something before the situation occurred. Renouncement is more then just lip service…it’s a heart and thought thing too.

For example, if a father puts a gun to the head of his pregnant daughter’s boyfriends and tells him to say I do…he may say it but everyone knows he’s not really saying I do. He’ll be able to get an annullment(sp?) just as fast as the police could arrest the father. The only way he wouldn’t be able to get an annullment is if he truly wanted to marry her before the ceremony.

I think God would know that the person wasn’t really renouncing anything too.

At least that’s my opinion on the matter.

I hope it helps : )

Perfect, and absolutely, in total agreement in full!!! Even if the person was told a number of things they had to do to prove it and it didn’t harm another, it too would have been forgiven before ever being committed.

 

[Chesster]

In the book of Maccabees a mother watched her seven sons be put to death rather than renounce God.

 

[OchsFam]

It is hard to fathom this scenario, but I hope I could be strong enough to not renounce Jesus for anything.

You mention that God will not hold you to the lip service, but what you are neglecting is that your actions are significant. Taking communion in a non-Catholic church, regardless of yoru reasoning, is probably a sin. Even if there are situations where it is not, you are making a gray area out of what would be clear had you made the better decision. If you denounce Jesus, you are putting your eternal life in jeopardy on the hope that mercy will trump justice. If you do not, you are saved and your child would be as well. It is a no-brainer decision in my opinion.

Read 2 Macc 6:18-31 where the man is killed for not eating pork. They even suggest that eating another meat and pretending it is pork would satisfy the king and would not be against the Jewish law. The problem is you would be providing a bad example for your child and anyone else who may be present, including the gunman. Your refusal to denounce Christ could be what saves him, but your denouncing Christ for your child says you do not believe in the promises of Christ. It is a hard decision, but the right one is obvious IMHO.

God Bless.

 

[jpjd]

I would say whatever a gunman wanted me to say, to save my child’s life. It would have no lasting meaning because my saying it under duress is not the truth. I simply will not have my child die of my accord. Now, if the scenario was to renounce in exchange for *my own *life, that is a different matter.

In the story in Maccabees, each of the seven sons died because of his own refusal to renounce in exchange for his own life, not because of* the mother’s* refusal to renounce in exchange for each of their lives.

 

[Soler]

Would it not constitute blasphemy (and lying, for that matter)?

I don’t have any children, but if I did, and if I were to be put in this situation, I hope I would be strong enough not to deny Christ.

 

[bmw8901]

Interesting question. I wouldn’t. At least I hope I wouldn’t. I don’t have kids yet, so it’s not that accurate of a statement.

A friend of mine and I once debated this same kind of question. But rather, what if one was being d? And then were to subsequently die right after a renouncement. I said that God would see through that and He still would judge your heart; it’s too forced and just wanting to end pain. My friend, who is an Evangelical, thought it would not be forgiven and the person would go to Hell because they committed the unpardonable sin and then died. I completely disagree that this would constitute blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in his terms “renouncing Christ and never having a chance to repent of it.”

I was reminded of how Peter denied Christ three times for FAR less. Maybe fear of being arrested? Embarrassment?

Your thoughts?

Thanks

 

[graceandglory]

Would it not constitute blasphemy (and lying, for that matter)?

I don’t have any children, but if I did, and if I were to be put in this situation, I hope I would be strong enough not to deny Christ.

I am not familiar with the Maccabees story, but I do think that lying to a psychotic, murderous gunman is not the same thing as RENOUNCING my faith. God knows that if my child were then free, I would be declaring God’s praises and deliverance immediately.

Don’t we do far worse sins on a regular basis that deny the power of Christ in our life?

 

[Malia_Belen]

It is hard to fathom this scenario, but I hope I could be strong enough to not renounce Jesus for anything.

You mention that God will not hold you to the lip service, but what you are neglecting is that your actions are significant. Taking communion in a non-Catholic church, regardless of yoru reasoning, is probably a sin. Even if there are situations where it is not, you are making a gray area out of what would be clear had you made the better decision. If you denounce Jesus, you are putting your eternal life in jeopardy on the hope that mercy will trump justice. If you do not, you are saved and your child would be as well. It is a no-brainer decision in my opinion.

Read 2 Macc 6:18-31 where the man is killed for not eating pork. They even suggest that eating another meat and pretending it is pork would satisfy the king and would not be against the Jewish law. The problem is you would be providing a bad example for your child and anyone else who may be present, including the gunman. Your refusal to denounce Christ could be what saves him, but your denouncing Christ for your child says you do not believe in the promises of Christ. It is a hard decision, but the right one is obvious IMHO.

God Bless.

The thing I have learned about Catholicism so far is that you have to be aware that you have committed a sin before it becomes a mortal sin to Catholics and if someone puts a gun to your head and tells you to renounce something…generally people renounce right away before thinking about it in order to save their lives…therefore they haven’t committed a mortal sin…venial at the least and they still haven’t renounced anything. I never said that lip servicing the renouncement wasn’t wrong. I just said they haven’t renounced anything because they never meant it in the first place…just like the anullment(sp?) in the shot gun wedding scenario means they were never married in the first place. It doesn’t mean it wasn’t wrong of him to say I do if he didn’t mean it…it just means the gun to his head made him commit what might be a venial sin to Catholics at the most. He certainly hasn’t renounced anything…as renouncement needs some level of thought and not a knee jerk response to fear without time to think.

 

[prodigalson12]

I would say whatever a gunman wanted me to say, to save my child’s life. It would have no lasting meaning because my saying it under duress is not the truth. I simply will not have my child die of my accord. Now, if the scenario was to renounce in exchange for *my own *life, that is a different matter.

In the story in Maccabees, each of the seven sons died because of his own refusal to renounce in exchange for his own life, not because of* the mother’s* refusal to renounce in exchange for each of their lives.

You do remember Peter renouncing Christ 3 times to save his own skin right? You are telling us that you would be better then him?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I have three children (adults now) and yes, the thought of such a scenario immediately makes my gut wrench.

But I see a lot of ‘rationalization’ going on here. A lot of talk that attempts to put all the ‘wrong’ of a renouncing of Christ onto the gunman. It is tacitly assumed that of course we wouldn’t really renounce Christ, we’re only *pretending, *we are using mental reservation, etc.

But when it comes right down to it. . .no matter how much we justify ourselves, or say we’re only speaking with ‘the lips’. . .we are speaking, right?

The early Christian martyrs faced these scenarios for real. They saw their children torn from their arms and were told ‘worship the emperor or we’ll throw your child to the lions. . .boil them in oil. . .cut their throats. . . burn them alive. . .’

And did the martyrs say, “oh yes, I renounce Christ, give me my child?”

No.

Because the martyrs saw (alas more clearly than we see today in our very secular and ‘rational’ world) that no matter how ‘logical’ the decision would be to ‘secretly’ worship Christ but to renounce him when they–or their families–were in danger wasn’t really worshipping Christ at all.

How far would Christianity have gone if the first Christians acted as so many propose in the ‘gunman’ scenario? Virtually every Christian approached by the Jews or the Romans with “renounce Christ or we will kill your child” could have cheerfully 'renounced Christ". After all, they would still ‘worship Him’ in their heart. . .

So. . . just another little cult, right? paying lip service to the Jews or Romans, the Christian god is so unimportant that nobody will even speak up for him. Who then is more important --our child or our God?

Do you really think that should we courageously say, “I refuse to renounce God for your sick emotional blackmail”. . .and this person actually DID do the unspeakable evil of killing a loved one–that God would be there going, “oh tsk tsk. Look at the waste. Why didn’t you save your child you stupid git?”

God would be there in our hearts, rather, assuring us our child was safe in His loving arms, that our action was both good and honorable, and that since we had not forsaken Him, He would never forsake us.

Worldly wisdom is foolishness in the eyes of God. . .Scripture says it and I believe it.

God knows that I would hate to be put into the situation, but no matter how I might try to rationalize and excuse my renunciation, there is no question but that I would be at fault should I renounce God. We may NOT do evil even if good results.

 

[ahollars]

That’s why I have more than one kid!

Okay, that was sadistic, but an interesting point. Something we should all think about, even if only briefly.

I am a warrior. Once a soldier, always a soldier. If someone had a gun to my kid’s head, he could not move fast enough to kill both of us. He must point the gun at me and kill me, giving my child time to run. If he hasn’t thought of that yet, if I am standing close enough, I will reach forward and fight. If I am shot, my child has enough time to escape while I cause a delay. If my child is shot, he doesn’t have enough time to shoot us both, and I have the skills to have already wounded him fatally by then. If my child dies, he or she dies my way, and if I die, my aggressor will die with me, because I have already made up my mind, he had better kill me, and he had better be faster than me.

I will never renounce Christ, because I believe in the existence of the crown of martyrdom in heaven.

BTW, anyone who has no physical health reason not to possess such strengths and skills should begin training after reading this.

 

[Malia_Belen]

I have three children (adults now) and yes, the thought of such a scenario immediately makes my gut wrench.

But I see a lot of ‘rationalization’ going on here. A lot of talk that attempts to put all the ‘wrong’ of a renouncing of Christ onto the gunman. It is tacitly assumed that of course we wouldn’t really renounce Christ, we’re only *pretending, *we are using mental reservation, etc.

But when it comes right down to it. . .no matter how much we justify ourselves, or say we’re only speaking with ‘the lips’. . .we are speaking, right?

The early Christian martyrs faced these scenarios for real. They saw their children torn from their arms and were told ‘worship the emperor or we’ll throw your child to the lions. . .boil them in oil. . .cut their throats. . . burn them alive. . .’

And did the martyrs say, “oh yes, I renounce Christ, give me my child?”

No.

Because the martyrs saw (alas more clearly than we see today in our very secular and ‘rational’ world) that no matter how ‘logical’ the decision would be to ‘secretly’ worship Christ but to renounce him when they–or their families–were in danger wasn’t really worshipping Christ at all.

How far would Christianity have gone if the first Christians acted as so many propose in the ‘gunman’ scenario? Virtually every Christian approached by the Jews or the Romans with “renounce Christ or we will kill your child” could have cheerfully 'renounced Christ". After all, they would still ‘worship Him’ in their heart. . .

So. . . just another little cult, right? paying lip service to the Jews or Romans, the Christian god is so unimportant that nobody will even speak up for him. Who then is more important --our child or our God?

Do you really think that should we courageously say, “I refuse to renounce God for your sick emotional blackmail”. . .and this person actually DID do the unspeakable evil of killing a loved one–that God would be there going, “oh tsk tsk. Look at the waste. Why didn’t you save your child you stupid git?”

God would be there in our hearts, rather, assuring us our child was safe in His loving arms, that our action was both good and honorable, and that since we had not forsaken Him, He would never forsake us.

Worldly wisdom is foolishness in the eyes of God. . .Scripture says it and I believe it.

God knows that I would hate to be put into the situation, but no matter how I might try to rationalize and excuse my renunciation, there is no question but that I would be at fault should I renounce God. We may NOT do evil even if good results.

Yes, but the question is, “Would you renounce Jesus Christ in exchange for your child’s life?” I think maybe many of us have a different definition of the word renounce because to me renounce means not to follow, obey or recognize. So to me if the person in question followed, obeyed and recognized before the incident. They are probably going to do so after the incident. Again I didn’t say the person doing the “renouncing” wasn’t wrong. I just think they really didn’t renounce anything. Maybe the question should be would you say you renounced rather than* would you renouce*…that way there is no consideration of whether the renouncement was real or not. We are not talking about whether the renouncement was wrong or not…again the question is “Would you renounce…?” so we have to consider the definition of renounce.

 

[Malia_Belen]

I just realized I never really answered the question.

If the question is would I renounce, then the answer is no.
If the question is would I say that I renounce, I hope and pray that the answers is also no and that God will give me the strength to do the right thing.

 

[nuntym]

I was wondering, while I was reading this thread, no one quoted this line from the Bible:

[bibledrb]Matthew 25:40[/bibledrb]

How can you deny Jesus Christ when you can save Him by verbally (but not in your heart) renouncing Him?

If it is my head against the gun, then that is another matter.

But if I am caught in a situation wherein denying Jesus Christ would save a human life aside from myself, then without hesitation I would do it. I do not care if that person is the most vile, evil person on Earth (even Adolf Hitler, if he is still alive), nor do I care how blasphemous my renunciation would be or sacrilegious my action should be, as long as it does not endanger another human life.

I am saving Jesus Christ Himself. I am saving the one Jesus Christ died for. In such a scenario, I paradoxically give glory to the Lord by denying Him.

 

[jpjd]

You do remember Peter renouncing Christ 3 times to save his own skin right? You are telling us that you would be better then him?

What are you talking about? How would saving my child make me better than Peter?

What I am saying is that I know myself well enough to know that there is no way I would let a gunman kill my child if I could help it.

 

[prodigalson12]

What are you talking about? How would saving my child make me better than Peter?

What I am saying is that I know myself well enough to know that there is no way I would let a gunman kill my child if I could help it.

You took it out of context, it’s to clarify the point, that even Peter denied him “other word would be renounce” 3 times and was even told ahead of time that he would do it, yet he still did!!!

I do have to admit though, instincts would kick in and I would likely not act rationally what so ever if I had a child and someone was holding a gun to their head. I would lay down my life without thinking to give him/her a chance to escape.

 

[masterjedi747]

Would you renounce Jesus Christ in exchange for your child’s life?

No. Not a chance.

Come on, people… this is a straight ticket to heaven we’re talking about here. Take advantage of it. Offer it up and take the plunge. Seriously, is the thought of living for a few more years in this fallen world really that much more appealing than the joy of eternal life in heaven? Keep the big picture in perspective.

If someone had a gun to your child’s head and said they’d shoot unless you renounced Jesus Christ - what would you do?

If there were absolutely no way of delaying them and/or talking them out of it (even exchanging my own life for theirs would be preferable, if possible)… I’d simply refuse. It’s really not worth it.

But if I am caught in a situation wherein denying Jesus Christ would save a human life aside from myself, then without hesitation I would do it.

…I truly cannot fathom why you would do such a thing.

I do not care if that person is the most vile, evil person on Earth (even Adolf Hitler, if he is still alive), nor do I care how blasphemous my renunciation would be or sacrilegious my action should be, as long as it does not endanger another human life.

…why do you seem so attached to life in this world?
Is it really worth risking your eternal soul for? …really? Come on.

“Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.”

I am saving Jesus Christ Himself. I am saving the one Jesus Christ died for. In such a scenario, I paradoxically give glory to the Lord by denying Him.

No. Not at all. You save the life of one, at the expense of your own soul (which is what Christ really died for). In such a scenario, you give no glory to God… you simply offend him and sin against him by denying him. Don’t kid yourself.

Besides, you’re completely taking that verse out of context… it has to do with the corporal acts of mercy, than anything else. And do you remember: “Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they shall revile you, and persecute you …] for my sake: Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is very great in heaven.”

The early Christian martyrs faced these scenarios for real. They saw their children torn from their arms and were told ‘worship the emperor or we’ll throw your child to the lions. . .boil them in oil. . .cut their throats. . . burn them alive. . .’

And did the martyrs say, “oh yes, I renounce Christ, give me my child?”

No.

Because the martyrs saw (alas more clearly than we see today in our very secular and ‘rational’ world) that no matter how ‘logical’ the decision would be to ‘secretly’ worship Christ but to renounce him when they–or their families–were in danger wasn’t really worshipping Christ at all.

…
God would be there in our hearts, rather, assuring us our child was safe in His loving arms, that our action was both good and honorable, and that since we had not forsaken Him, He would never forsake us.

Worldly wisdom is foolishness in the eyes of God. . .Scripture says it and I believe it.

God knows that I would hate to be put into the situation, but no matter how I might try to rationalize and excuse my renunciation, there is no question but that I would be at fault should I renounce God. We may NOT do evil even if good results.

+1