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Malia_Belen
Guest
Good idea. I’d be interested to know the answer. What does everyone think?Maybew you could ask an apologist…
Would you renounce Jesus Christ in exchange for your child's life?
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Gee. Malia. Are you saying that God doesn’t mind our sinning provided that the ‘end’ justifies it? Really, that’s what it comes across as. . .
So we’re just supposed to deny God and rely on the fact that He 'knows" that we are only doing it because somebody is making us do it?
So our faith in God is something that we can deny at any time (for ‘reason’) and then just pick up again?
So God tells us that we are to go out and preach His gospel (which by definition means that we state our faith in Him). . .except whenever we get into a situation whereby denying him results in some ‘good’, and where our profession of faith is supposedly–and I use that term because that’s what I mean, it is ONLY a supposition–results in something bad?
Because it isn’t my profession of faith that ‘causes’ the child to die if the gunman pulls the trigger, Malia. THAT is where I think the crux (appropriate word, meaning cross) of the matter lies.
Apparently there are those who believe that it is not the GUNMAN who is responsible for the death, but the one who ‘refuses’ to play by the gunman’s ‘rules’.
And they likewise feel that X number of minutes spent ON EARTH is more important than professing one’s eternal faith.
This is not about me judging, Malia. This is not about how nasty I am to impute all sorts of evil to ‘poor people’ caught in bad situations.
This is the crux of our faith as Christians. Either we proclaim Christ or we deny Him; there is no middle ground. And there is no excuse to deny Him for ANY reason whatsoever. The crux isn’t whether or not He forgives us, and I never said it was. The crux is, there is never, never, never any REASON where we can deny him and not remain culpable to SOME degree for our actions. There is never a case where we can say that we ‘had’ to deny Him in order to ‘save’ someone, as though the saving JUSTIFIED the denial.
THAT is what I am saying. I’m not talking about whether or not somebody can repent afterward; of course they CAN. I’m saying that you can never, repeat never, say that the DENIAL can ever be 'excused" on the ground of it being done ‘for good.’ If you agree with me on that, then we’re fine, because I likewise agree that if we do sin, we CAN repent. I never said we couldn’t.
So we’re just supposed to deny God and rely on the fact that He 'knows" that we are only doing it because somebody is making us do it?
So our faith in God is something that we can deny at any time (for ‘reason’) and then just pick up again?
So God tells us that we are to go out and preach His gospel (which by definition means that we state our faith in Him). . .except whenever we get into a situation whereby denying him results in some ‘good’, and where our profession of faith is supposedly–and I use that term because that’s what I mean, it is ONLY a supposition–results in something bad?
Because it isn’t my profession of faith that ‘causes’ the child to die if the gunman pulls the trigger, Malia. THAT is where I think the crux (appropriate word, meaning cross) of the matter lies.
Apparently there are those who believe that it is not the GUNMAN who is responsible for the death, but the one who ‘refuses’ to play by the gunman’s ‘rules’.
And they likewise feel that X number of minutes spent ON EARTH is more important than professing one’s eternal faith.
This is not about me judging, Malia. This is not about how nasty I am to impute all sorts of evil to ‘poor people’ caught in bad situations.
This is the crux of our faith as Christians. Either we proclaim Christ or we deny Him; there is no middle ground. And there is no excuse to deny Him for ANY reason whatsoever. The crux isn’t whether or not He forgives us, and I never said it was. The crux is, there is never, never, never any REASON where we can deny him and not remain culpable to SOME degree for our actions. There is never a case where we can say that we ‘had’ to deny Him in order to ‘save’ someone, as though the saving JUSTIFIED the denial.
THAT is what I am saying. I’m not talking about whether or not somebody can repent afterward; of course they CAN. I’m saying that you can never, repeat never, say that the DENIAL can ever be 'excused" on the ground of it being done ‘for good.’ If you agree with me on that, then we’re fine, because I likewise agree that if we do sin, we CAN repent. I never said we couldn’t.
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Malia_Belen
Guest
TantumErgo and others: We are all just having a sort of religious debate, right? I don’t want anyone to walk away from this upset with the other person.
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Tantum_ergo
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Graceandglory, you must have missed it because I said it twice. I have three children, all adults now, thank you, for any of whom I would then, and would now, willingly die myself. However, I would not ‘buy’ minutes on earth for them at the peril of my immortal soul. I would not presume on God that even though I wouldn’t really ‘mean’ it, or that I would immediately go to confession about it, that the ACTION of denying Him was ever ‘justified’ by the ‘saving’ of my child’s life.
That doesn’t mean I don’t love them. It means (and this is something that I thought we Catholics knew) that I love God more than MY life or THEIR lives. Loving God MORE doesn’t mean I love them LESS. . .
That doesn’t mean I don’t love them. It means (and this is something that I thought we Catholics knew) that I love God more than MY life or THEIR lives. Loving God MORE doesn’t mean I love them LESS. . .
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Malia_Belen
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No, I don’t think sinning is okay if it justifies the means but Jesus died on the cross because we are imperfect human beings. I equate renouncing God almost with committing the impardonable sin (?) and I think in this situation many a Christian would fall. I like to think that God knows our weaknesses as humans and would not equate this situation with someone filled with so much hate and evilness that they renounced and don’t even care about it.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Oh absolutely, Malia. I’m not upset with you at all. I hope I’m not coming across like I’m aiming this at you personally or accusing you of anything; I’m not. As you say, we are discussing a topic.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Maybe we’re making it into two separate things.
If a person sins, can they repent and be forgiven? Sure.
But is it ever ‘justifiable’ because it will ‘save a life’ to do an action which is evil? No.
If we do it anyway, and repent, can we be forgiven? Yes.
Knowing that we will be forgiven if we ask, should we then have no compunction in doing an evil? No.
If a person sins, can they repent and be forgiven? Sure.
But is it ever ‘justifiable’ because it will ‘save a life’ to do an action which is evil? No.
If we do it anyway, and repent, can we be forgiven? Yes.
Knowing that we will be forgiven if we ask, should we then have no compunction in doing an evil? No.
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Norseman82
Guest
Definitely a morbid thought, and definitely the adrenaline may obscure clear decision making, but the following analysis can help in preparation:
The other alternative is to try to play the “waiting” or “staredown” game, hoping that by trying to talk him into giving up the gun or “waiting it out” maybe the gunman will eventually give up or give an opening for the kid to try to run away or escape (which is another skill to train for) and the parent can try to grab the gun.
Besides, how can one guarantee that the gunman will release the kid anyway? It reminds me of the movie “Air Force One” where the hijacker, despite the President getting the terrorist ex-Kazakh president reelased in order to save his daughter’s life, decides to take the first famly to Kazakhstan. When the first lady says “I thought you were going to release us” the hijacker replies “Forgive me. I lied.”
I agree with this 100%, although if there are other gunmen my chances of disarming the one holding the gun to my kid’s head may decrease. However, I will take the chance of dying before my kid; at least then I will not have to live however many years agonizing over my choice; additionally, since the whole point of puting a gun to the kid’s head was to get me to renounce my faith, if I’m dead, that prize will elude them, right?
The other alternative is to try to play the “waiting” or “staredown” game, hoping that by trying to talk him into giving up the gun or “waiting it out” maybe the gunman will eventually give up or give an opening for the kid to try to run away or escape (which is another skill to train for) and the parent can try to grab the gun.
Besides, how can one guarantee that the gunman will release the kid anyway? It reminds me of the movie “Air Force One” where the hijacker, despite the President getting the terrorist ex-Kazakh president reelased in order to save his daughter’s life, decides to take the first famly to Kazakhstan. When the first lady says “I thought you were going to release us” the hijacker replies “Forgive me. I lied.”
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graceandglory
Guest
I agree with you except that I don’t think professing my faith to a mentally deranged madman with a gun who would murder an innocent child because of his hatred of God would really merit much in the long run. To me, it seems like casting my pearls among swine. There are times when I would profess my faith at the risk of me or my children’s lives, but I don’t think a psychotic murderer is one.
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Norseman82
Guest
Additionally, since I am starting to see some heatedness in the exchanges, let’s keep in mind that some of this may be due to differences in approach due to traditional gender roles, i.e., the male “I will die fighting to preserve the life of my family” vs. the female “nurture the life carried in my womb” instinct.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Then there are those of us saying we will not renounce and we are women. (That is, I’m a woman). Then again I’m 53, I’m a cradle Catholic, I grew up with the stories of the heroic “Lives of the Saints” and with the nuns encouraging us to never deny our faith even if it meant our own death or the death of others. So yes, there is a component of education/experience in there as well, culturalization, etc.
Maybe this is another example of how Catholic teaching in the last generation has some gaps in it in areas which would be absolutely unquestioned in my parents’ or grandparent’s generation. However, there are certainly things which the ‘younger ones’ learned in the last generation which are important and might not have been as known in MY generation or earlier ones.
I just hope that while we ‘hold fast’ to the good things that we known in ‘modern society’ and ‘modern Catholic teaching understanding’ we don’t throw away the good things that had been known earlier.
Maybe this is another example of how Catholic teaching in the last generation has some gaps in it in areas which would be absolutely unquestioned in my parents’ or grandparent’s generation. However, there are certainly things which the ‘younger ones’ learned in the last generation which are important and might not have been as known in MY generation or earlier ones.
I just hope that while we ‘hold fast’ to the good things that we known in ‘modern society’ and ‘modern Catholic teaching understanding’ we don’t throw away the good things that had been known earlier.
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ahollars
Guest
Interesting!!!
I was willing to forgive the parent who surrenders and says something they shouldn’t. This scenario doesn’t sound like a mortal sin, because the free will has been stolen, and this may not even qualify as sufficient reflection. Does God understand? Sure, He does, but stranger things have happened. For all I know, his gun could misfire when he pulls the trigger. I believe my child will live as long as God has not finished His plan, no matter how bad it may appear.
But, I suppose each of us has a breaking point, whether we know it or not. We can only pray that we never have to find out.
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wjp984
Guest
How about switching it to, you’re the child of age of reason (it doesn’t work if you are below this age). You know at the very least that you believe in God and Heaven if nothing else. What would you want your parent to do?
I don’t have any kids so I can’t really answer that question other than to think of it in the reverse in which case I would think I would rather die than have one of my parents jeapordize his/her salvation for the sake of saving me.
I don’t have any kids so I can’t really answer that question other than to think of it in the reverse in which case I would think I would rather die than have one of my parents jeapordize his/her salvation for the sake of saving me.
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ahollars
Guest
I have a 12 year old and a 6 year old (and more, but I’ll just focus on those two). I’ll find out and post the answers in the morning.
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prodigalson12
Guest
I put some more meditation on this topic and taking note as to the contraversy it has aroused, felt it was in dire need of clarification, especially with the number of posts that are clearly a fundamentalist perspective.
The word of God is not to be used as a flat, texbook, this is it on face value, this is what it said so it’s law in all situations for all eternity. Put this into context to the times it was written before jumping off and thinking it’s pertaining to this hypothetical situation.
Scenereo, some lunatic is threatening your child with a gun, you are not in a situation to be testimony to Christ, you are in a situation of raw negotation, even if you have to word things in accordance with the derranged mind, you do so just to talk him out of making an irrational act just as you would if you encountered someone trying to mug you off of the street, words themselves can go a very long way in these situations. In the original context, with what was meant in scripture, if all of a sudden the world decided to make putting guns to Christian childrens heads a tactic to defraud our faith, then you would be going back to the original letter, this can be in the case of our modern times with muslem extremests taking that tactic and we should be on guard for that one, we must stand testimony for our faith in those circumstances, especially since likely you and your child would be killed anyway, or more so, would be killed for renouncing your faith in the first place.
The context of the original scripture knew full well of the oppression we would face, that is why it’s so clearly written and meant to use literally more so for the early days of the church, but please, God gave us a brain as well as discernment, it’s what is in our heart that matters more so then in our lips, bottom line. We can then go back to how the Jews used to hide their true faith when in public, and this too is something it was addressing, how many of the early Christians outwardly showed their faith? Very few, they knew they would be killed if they did, there would be no Christianity if all of them took scripture without discernment, but now, how many of us that no longer have to be underground with our faith clearly show it in public on a regular basis? Very, very few indeed. I wear my crucifix and Miraculous medal on the outside of my shirt to show mine from passer by’s, it’s clear that I am Catholic, how about the rest of you?
The word of God is not to be used as a flat, texbook, this is it on face value, this is what it said so it’s law in all situations for all eternity. Put this into context to the times it was written before jumping off and thinking it’s pertaining to this hypothetical situation.
Scenereo, some lunatic is threatening your child with a gun, you are not in a situation to be testimony to Christ, you are in a situation of raw negotation, even if you have to word things in accordance with the derranged mind, you do so just to talk him out of making an irrational act just as you would if you encountered someone trying to mug you off of the street, words themselves can go a very long way in these situations. In the original context, with what was meant in scripture, if all of a sudden the world decided to make putting guns to Christian childrens heads a tactic to defraud our faith, then you would be going back to the original letter, this can be in the case of our modern times with muslem extremests taking that tactic and we should be on guard for that one, we must stand testimony for our faith in those circumstances, especially since likely you and your child would be killed anyway, or more so, would be killed for renouncing your faith in the first place.
The context of the original scripture knew full well of the oppression we would face, that is why it’s so clearly written and meant to use literally more so for the early days of the church, but please, God gave us a brain as well as discernment, it’s what is in our heart that matters more so then in our lips, bottom line. We can then go back to how the Jews used to hide their true faith when in public, and this too is something it was addressing, how many of the early Christians outwardly showed their faith? Very few, they knew they would be killed if they did, there would be no Christianity if all of them took scripture without discernment, but now, how many of us that no longer have to be underground with our faith clearly show it in public on a regular basis? Very, very few indeed. I wear my crucifix and Miraculous medal on the outside of my shirt to show mine from passer by’s, it’s clear that I am Catholic, how about the rest of you?
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wjp984
Guest
But just how do you know renouncing your faith will guarantee the life of your child? I mean, if the individual is sick enough to put you in this situation, he is sick enough to kill your child anyways and then mock you because now you lost your child and your faith. I think there is more of an argument to do it if it is an army threatning you. The army at least will be more likely to let you live for renouncing your faith and then you can flee.
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Malia_Belen
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Everything you said could well be the truth except the part about really renouncing (as you’ve read there is some issue there) but do you think a person is going to be thinking about all that you’ve said with a gun to the child’s head. The next time someone in your family surprises you or scares you just for fun think about your first reaction. Did you scream, jump, squeak or say no or stop? Did you realize you did any of those things? Did you have time to even think about the fact that you screamed, jumped, squeaked or said stop before you did it? How hard would it be to stop that initial reaction even if someone warned you they were going to try and scare you? You might not jump or squeak as much but you’d still probably do it because it is an involuntary reaction.
Now think about a parent looking at a gun pointing towards their child’s head. We’ve got the gun, the child scared, helpless and crying and screaming and a talking gunman. Are you really going to be listening carefully to what the gunman is saying while your kid is scared to death? You’re probably already agreeing and jumping in front of your child’s body before even knowing what you’re doing because you’re thinking about you’re kid and you probably think he wants money…I mean not many gunmen are out for renunciation these days as far as I know. When people are getting robbed by themselves, they are already saying you can have whatever you want while they are pulling out their wallets to hand over and the robber hasn’t said anything yet just held out a gun. There are too many issues here to be saying that someone readily and knowingly renounced their faith and call me crazy but I just don’t think God would think so either.
We can sit here, chat about it and debate about it but sadly the only way to even find a resemblance of the truth is to be in the situation. Maybe we’d all be right depending on the person, the situation and the timing involved.
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benedictus2
Guest
In the case of Mary as I have put it well no there is no difference.
My point was IF say the powers that be at that time had said, if you renounce your God and worshipped Ceasar, we will allow Jesus to live? Do you think she would have done it?
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benedictus2
Guest
Words have power. In his heart Peter did not deny Jesus, yet in that act of denial he showed that he had. That is why Jesus predicted that he would deny Him.
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benedictus2
Guest
:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:
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