Would you renounce Jesus Christ in exchange for your child's life?

[benedictus2]

Hopefully everyone here would rather to take the place of their child. Because it’s not a “my life, or my child’s life” scenario… it’s a “sin against God or suffer” scenario.

Duress might certainly mitigate the guilt of the victims involved, but the sin is objectively just as serious as ever.

It’s grave matter, so it definitely could be a mortal sin, if all the requirements are fulfilled (admittedly unlikely).

The Church distinguishes between objective gravity and subjective culpability. It can be a mortally sinful action, even if there are mitigating circumstances (such as duress) that reduce the subjective culpability of the individual in those conditions, so that they only incur the guilt of a venial sin.

Very, very well said. Yes, that is the point, there are mitigating circumstances but it remains a sin.

 

[benedictus2]

Do you remember Columbine? Do you remember the one young woman who was approached by the gunmen and asked if she believed in Christ? Here is a young woman in a situation in which I’m sure most of you would say that, hey, she’s YOUNG, she’s scared, God will understand, all she had to do was say ‘no’. . .

Yes, our faith grows on the blood of the martyrs. When we think too much insecular terms then we get into trouble.

St Rita of Casia when she got wind that her two boys were intending to kill their father’s murderer prayed that God take them rather than that they sin. There is more to life than this earthly life. If we put too much stock on it we lose the plot.

 

[benedictus2]

No, I don’t think sinning is okay if it justifies the means but Jesus died on the cross because we are imperfect human beings. I equate renouncing God almost with committing the impardonable sin (?) and I think in this situation many a Christian would fall. I like to think that God knows our weaknesses as humans and would not equate this situation with someone filled with so much hate and evilness that they renounced and don’t even care about it.

If we always think that God knows our weaknesses so we’ll just waddle along, then we will always waddle along.

I hope that if it will come to that I will be able to say no. I will certainly be praying that I can affirm my faith.

As a hypothetical at this stage though, rationalizing it away is not helping because we are instilling in our mind that this is okay because God knows our weaknesses anyway.

 

[benedictus2]

I put some more meditation on this topic and taking note as to the contraversy it has aroused, felt it was in dire need of clarification, especially with the number of posts that are clearly a fundamentalist perspective.

The word of God is not to be used as a flat, texbook, this is it on face value, this is what it said so it’s law in all situations for all eternity. Put this into context to the times it was written before jumping off and thinking it’s pertaining to this hypothetical situation.

Scenereo, some lunatic is threatening your child with a gun, you are not in a situation to be testimony to Christ, you are in a situation of raw negotation, even if you have to word things in accordance with the derranged mind, you do so just to talk him out of making an irrational act just as you would if you encountered someone trying to mug you off of the street, words themselves can go a very long way in these situations.

If the guy is a lunatic there is no guarantee that he would honor his word. Being a lunatic he could very well shoot your child and you for the heck of it. So now you go to your death having denied Christ.

We have to take God at His Word. Or else we cannot really say that we believe the Bible. We cannot rationalize this one away.

Also, if it is only about placating a lunatic you can placate him without necessarily denying Christ. To renounce Christ would be to give the upper hand to the raving lunatic.

In the original context, with what was meant in scripture, if all of a sudden the world decided to make putting guns to Christian childrens heads a tactic to defraud our faith, then you would be going back to the original letter, this can be in the case of our modern times with muslem extremests taking that tactic and we should be on guard for that one, we must stand testimony for our faith in those circumstances, especially since likely you and your child would be killed anyway, or more so, would be killed for renouncing your faith in the first place.

The context of the original scripture knew full well of the oppression we would face, that is why it’s so clearly written and meant to use literally more so for the early days of the church,

Scripture is not mean just for the early days of the church. Scripture is living Word because it is the Word of God. It does not have a use by date.

but please, God gave us a brain as well as discernment, it’s what is in our heart that matters more so then in our lips, bottom line.

Discernment only applies between two good choices. Discernment does not apply where the choice is between good or evil. There is no discernment necessary because the choice is clear… do good, avoid evil.

We can then go back to how the Jews used to hide their true faith when in public, and this too is something it was addressing, how many of the early Christians outwardly showed their faith? Very few, they knew they would be killed if they did, there would be no Christianity

But hiding is not the same as renouncing. When the early Christians were are asked to renounce, they did not. That is why they were martyred. Christianity flourished from the blood of the martyrs.

This is one of the biggest testimony to faith.

Sometimes, one’s death can speak more loudly than one’s life. The martyrs by their life and death continue to preach a sermon to us.

This is why I keep reiterating, whle this scenario is still hypothetical, I suggest we all pray that we will have the grace to NOT deny Christ should it become a reality.

 

[prodigalson12]

If the guy is a lunatic there is no guarantee that he would honor his word. Being a lunatic he could very well shoot your child and you for the heck of it. So now you go to your death having denied Christ.

This is an area where I do have some experience with, dealing with people that are clinically insane. You cannot rationalize their motives or stances, for all we know, they think in their twisted mentality that Christ requires this person to do this, it’s appeasing a sick mind to put it at ease, nothing more. If our law enforcement would take negotiation tactics like this into account, there would be many less shootings necessary, sadly they are as we are if you were to take the word for a flat accross the board literal blanketed for all accounts for what is said without looking deeper into the meaning. The rule gets lost in the process, and you are literally taking a fundamentalist perspective, just as the rookie cop following the letter of the law with his training finds himself in deep waters, in trouble for not discerning when it applies in the direct and literal sense and when it is time to adjust it to suite the situation. We have procedures for a reason, but it’s a matter of taking it from a veterans perspective, not a rookie that matters.

We have to take God at His Word. Or else we cannot really say that we believe the Bible. We cannot rationalize this one away.

Yes, but we must know what his word means in any given situation, it has greater depth then to simply state, x circumstance requires these words to be said, life is more complicated then that.

Also, if it is only about placating a lunatic you can placate him without necessarily denying Christ. To renounce Christ would be to give the upper hand to the raving lunatic.

No, you are still in control by not letting your emotions ovveride your judgement, you are dealing with the situation in a calm, tactful manner, they may have demands that have to be met in order to appease their sickness, but it’s patronizing them at best, nothing more.

Scripture is not mean just for the early days of the church. Scripture is living Word because it is the Word of God. It does not have a use by date.

Yes, and if we are in a muslim controlled state, we will be defaulting to what the word said on it’s surface, even if it we become martyred in the process, the same oppression exists there, not in some single instance from some madman.

Discernment only applies between two good choices. Discernment does not apply where the choice is between good or evil. There is no discernment necessary because the choice is clear… do good, avoid evil.

Yes, do good, patronize a person that’s clinicly insane to prevent them from taking action they would regret and prevent them from committing a mortal sin, what evil is there in that decision?

But hiding is not the same as renouncing. When the early Christians were are asked to renounce, they did not. That is why they were martyred. Christianity flourished from the blood of the martyrs.

Hiding is the same thing as renouncing, it’s just not using words.

This is one of the biggest testimony to faith.

I agree, if we as modern Christians would get it through our thick skulls the sacrafices made by the early followers, unimaginable suffering they endured, we would not take our faith so lightly, for they are a very tough act to follow.

Sometimes, one’s death can speak more loudly than one’s life. The martyrs by their life and death continue to preach a sermon to us.

Agreed, in most times in my opinion, case in point with what was discussed in last Sundays sermon of a priest and deacon in Iraq, after they left service, they were stopped by some terrorists and told to convert to Islam or die, they refused so were killed. This speaks volumes to the terrorists, of whom are a large organization that persecute Christians, that we do not deny our faith, even if it means we will die, and again, the action taken by the priest and deacon were following to the letter in the correct manner.

This is why I keep reiterating, whle this scenario is still hypothetical, I suggest we all pray that we will have the grace to NOT deny Christ should it become a reality.

Agreed, but still, I refuse to let any child die because I was too stubborn to realize that reason and negotiation would prevail, it’s not like we are setting an example to convert insane people, what ever was said, good bad or indifferent falls on deaf ears with those types of individuals, they are sick and should be institutionalized and get medical help, only after they are healed, if they are healed can they truly come to know Christ.

I know of someone that if he doesn’t take his medicine and he kills someone, he will not be prosecuted, he is out of his right mind during those times, he remembers nothing, his actions are the result of his illness and there is nothing that is said and done that will suddenly change it without of course, getting him to take his medication.

I’m also being honest with myself here, we all have our breaking points, it’s easy to say you would react a certain way under a given situation, quite another to apply it. People do not know themselves well enough to know just how weak they are, so will piosly say they would not, when in reality, they most likely would, and again, have to point out Peter, who was even warned about it ahead of time, yet he still did it. Are we to say we are stronger in our convictions then Peter?

 

[benedictus2]

*This is an area where I do have some experience with, dealing with people that are clinically insane. You cannot rationalize their motives or stances, for all we know, they think in their twisted mentality that Christ requires this person to do this, it’s appeasing a sick mind to put it at ease, nothing more. If our law enforcement would take negotiation tactics like this into account, there would be many less shootings necessary, sadly they are as we are if you were to take the word for a flat accross the board literal blanketed for all accounts for what is said without looking deeper into the meaning. The rule gets lost in the process, and you are literally taking a fundamentalist perspective, just as the rookie cop following the letter of the law with his training finds himself in deep waters, in trouble for not discerning when it applies in the direct and literal sense and when it is time to adjust it to suite the situation. We have procedures for a reason, but it’s a matter of taking it from a veterans perspective, not a rookie that matters. *

But the point is, say you renounced Christ. How do you know that this guy, since he is a lunatic will not kill you and the child anyway? Because he is a lunatic, there is no guarantee that he will keep his word. So there is a chance that you will end up dead anyway…. with your last word being a denial of your Lord and Saviour, the God who died for you, that you may live.
*

No, you are still in control by not letting your emotions ovveride your judgement, you are dealing with the situation in a calm, tactful manner, they may have demands that have to be met in order to appease their sickness, but it’s patronizing them at best, nothing more.

Actually you are not in control. Because fear has you in control. If you are in control then trust and faith in God will not make you deny Him.
*

*Yes, do good, patronize a person that’s clinicly insane to prevent them from taking action they would regret and prevent them from committing a mortal sin, what evil is there in that decision? *

But that is not the decision that is evil. It is the denial of Christ that is evil.

The choice is this: do an evil deed (deny Christ) to effect a good outcome (save a child’s life). It all boils down to the same “good end justifiies evil means” dictum.

A good end will **never ever **justify evil means. That Machiavellian principle is the way of the world not the way of Christ.

Hiding is the same thing as renouncing, it’s just not using words.

No it is not. Hiding is preserving your life without renouncing Christ.

If part of this hypothetical scenario is an option to run and hide, then I would answer do so. But if after running and hiding you are still found and back in square one, then I would still answer one must NOT deny Christ. It is very likely that one would, that is why we need to pray for grace to be able to stand firm.

Agreed, but still, I refuse to let any child die because I was too stubborn to realize that reason and negotiation would prevail, it’s not like we are setting an example to convert insane people, **what ever was said, good bad or indifferent falls on deaf ears **

with those types of individuals, they are sick and should be institutionalized and get medical help, only after they are healed, if they are healed can they truly come to know Christ.
And that is exactly the point, “whatever was said can fall on deaf ears”.
So I go back to my first point, after denying Christ, you and the child can still end up dead and your last words were a denial of someone you claim to love.

The whole problem with people answering yes to this hypothetical question is precisely because even at thisl hypothetical stage they have already resolved that they will deny Christ should push come to shove. So if this were a real situation, they would deny Christ.

St Peter at least, had the conviction that he really loved Christ so would never deny him and said as much. Yes, human weakness took over but at least he had the right intention and frame of refernce at the beginning. The spirit was willing but the flesh is weak. That is why Christ looked at him with love.

We need to pray for greater faith and greater trust, that if we follow Christ, then He will make all things well. But we must follow Christ.
Matthew 10: 37-39
"Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
and whoever does not take up his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

 

[prodigalson12]

But the point is, say you renounced Christ. How do you know that this guy, since he is a lunatic will not kill you and the child anyway? Because he is a lunatic, there is no guarantee that he will keep his word. So there is a chance that you will end up dead anyway…. with your last word being a denial of your Lord and Saviour, the God who died for you, that you may live.

• You don’t, all you can do is have faith that God will work through you, using your mind and talents to boot to get the child free. You aren’t actually renouncing Christ, you are giving wordplay to a deranged mind, nothing more, even if both of you are killed, you have done your absolute best to save that child. And, if there is a chance I would die anyway, isn’t it Christ that layed down his life for us? Are you going to cling to it, even putting your own soul in jeopardy in the process for another? God knows the circumstance, he knows what is in your heart, he knows what you did was not to be against him, not to be angry with him, but to only save this one life and not for testimony for or against him for this end. If we had some crazy movement of lunatics escaped the mental wards and were roaming the country imposing this scenario, you would be forced to have to go back to the letter of scripture, and it would be sad since these people have no comprehension for what they do, but that’s pretty far fetched, you are forced to use the letter of the word entirely because it is now a front of people that will be spoken of, and we aren’t showing testimony to them, as much as the world which would observe the situation.

**
Actually you are not in control. Because fear has you in control. If you are in control then trust and faith in God will not make you deny Him.

• You are in control, as in you have the capacity to think and react rationally, the madman does not. You are using negotiation tactics, you stand out side of the situation and react in a calm, logical manner. Case in point with the last encounter I faced from a psychopath, he had a large kitchen knife and was about to stab me with it, I picked up something to use as a shield and calmly told him “are you sure you really want to do this”, after saying this 3 times, he dropped the knife. I was still in control even though my adrenaline levels were high, I still negotiated through that situation rather then picking up something else to fight back with and went on the attack, per my military training, I knew the outcome would be bad for me, regardless, unless I was able to use the third option of negotiation.

**
But that is not the decision that is evil. It is the denial of Christ that is evil.

• In this particular situation, you aren’t denying him.

The choice is this: do an evil deed (deny Christ) to effect a good outcome (save a child’s life). It all boils down to the same “good end justifiies evil means” dictum.

• In this particular situation, you are not denying him.

A good end will **never ever **justify evil means. That Machiavellian principle is the way of the world not the way of Christ.

• Again, in this particular situation…

**
No it is not. Hiding is preserving your life without renouncing Christ.

• And these same jews, if confronted, would they avoid proudly answering that they are, or would they side step the issue?

If part of this hypothetical scenario is an option to run and hide, then I would answer do so. But if after running and hiding you are still found and back in square one, then I would still answer one must NOT deny Christ. It is very likely that one would, that is why we need to pray for grace to be able to stand firm.

• A child’s life is at stake, this is no time to run and hide. You are correct on it being very likely that one would, and this is why I and several others here have been honest with our answers. We can stand behind what we believe, give it plenty of word play all we want, but when the chips are down, this is when your faith is tested, how often I’ve seen people’s faith tested and failed miserably, I cannot count, and too often, they do so over such trivial matters, it’s sickening. But this scenario is not a test of faith, it’s a test of seeing who is going to take the word in a fundamentalists manner, or who is going to use discernment with it.

And that is exactly the point, “whatever was said can fall on deaf ears”.
So I go back to my first point, after denying Christ, you and the child can still end up dead and your last words were a denial of someone you claim to love.

• 4th time, you aren’t denying him…

 

[prodigalson12]

The whole problem with people answering yes to this hypothetical question is precisely because even at thisl hypothetical stage they have already resolved that they will deny Christ should push come to shove. So if this were a real situation, they would deny Christ.

Again, they are being more honest with themselves.

St Peter at least, had the conviction that he really loved Christ so would never deny him and said as much. Yes, human weakness took over but at least he had the right intention and frame of refernce at the beginning. The spirit was willing but the flesh is weak. That is why Christ looked at him with love.

And did Peter get convicted and sent to hell? I think not, and he was only doing it to save his own skin. To be honest, there is little to this world that I cling to, so being martyred for my faith isn’t such a big stretch for me, but throwing my life away diluting myself into thinking it’s martyrdom, is another. If we have to lay down our life for Christ, so be it, if we have to live for Christ, then so be it, either way you serve him and his church.

We need to pray for greater faith and greater trust, that if we follow Christ, then He will make all things well. But we must follow Christ.

Not in this life, only the life to come.

Matthew 10: 37-39
"Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
and whoever does not take up his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Yep, and this was written knowing full well the oppression that would be faced for following him, it applies to sane individuals that threaten it, it applies to principalities, to rulers, to army’s, to all that oppose the Christian faith, it doesn’t apply to negotiation with some lunatic that requires institutionalization, they have no capacity to understand what they do, this is why they are insane. See how Sola Scripture has it’s limits? You above all others that I know should realize this.

 

[prodigalson12]

And to add here, for those that insist they would not renounce him in that oddball situation. Take note as to how we fare as testimony to the world with those that instead of getting their children to legitimate medical care, opt to neglect that matter and leave it up to God to heal them. They create a very bad image for us, making us look like irrational fanatics, think about this situation with this, where we/they stood by the letter of what we/they think, regardless if there are other means to save this life, and instead of saving it, we condemn it because we refused to budge out of principals that have no discernment.

 

[crazzeto]

#1 Horrible Question

#2 No for many reasons. But consider the situation, someone like this isn’t going to stop just because you renounce Christ. All that will happen, is you will have renounced Christ, which is a sin. I would probably pray though, that if harm did befall my (theoretical, don’t have one yet) child that I would be next. Since this person is sedistic, there’s no reason to expect you wouldn’t be if you continue refusing to renounce Christ.

Of course that’s all so very easy for me to type, only God knows truely what I would do in such a situation. All I can do is pray I’m never in that situation.

 

[crazzeto]

And to add here, for those that insist they would not renounce him in that oddball situation. Take note as to how we fare as testimony to the world with those that instead of getting their children to legitimate medical care, opt to neglect that matter and leave it up to God to heal them. They create a very bad image for us, making us look like irrational fanatics, think about this situation with this, where we/they stood by the letter of what we/they think, regardless if there are other means to save this life, and instead of saving it, we condemn it because we refused to budge out of principals that have no discernment.

This isn’t about public relations, this is about doing what is best not only for your soul, but for your Childs as well. By denying Christ ever, you risk (and probably will) teach your child that your faith isn’t that important. That it’s not worth dieing for. I would suggest that if your faith isn’t worth dieing for, then it’s worthless. I do want my childeren totally committed to God, I can only pray that my childeren will grow up ready willing and able to bare the ultimate witness to Christ.

If you think that is bad PR, consider how our Church grew and began to thrive in the early days. It was due, directly to people making exactly these choices. The flower of the Christian Church was watered and norished with the blood of martyrs.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

St. Paul–who was certainly writing when his fellow Christians were suffering persecution and death–remarks in 1 Corinthians 3: 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written: I will catch the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again: The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

A lot of people are arguing with the wisdom of the world. . .to '‘save the child’s life’ is considered more important than professing one’s faith. So many justifications for the wisdom of the world which wants ‘safety’ and ‘earthly life’ and presumptuously trusts that God will be sufficiently impressed by our thoughtfulness and our equivalent of ‘crossing our fingers behind our backs’ so that our renunciation can’t be ‘counted against us’. . .

Something to consider. Are we trying to judge with God’s eyes or with the world’s eyes? Who is more just. . .the world or God? Who do we really serve --the world or God?

 

[RbM_Lives]

A group of gunmen with machine guns stormed a small church in the mountains of Mexico, drew down on the congregation, and said, “anyone who wants to leave can do so now, then we start shooting!”

Almost everybody scrambled for the doors. After a short time, only a handfull of people were left behind in prayer.

The gunmen then stunned the small group of christains. They laid down their guns and said, “O.K. tell us about your Christ. We just wanted to make sure you were for real.”

RbM

 

[benedictus2]

• You don’t, all you can do is have faith that God will work through you, using your mind and talents to boot to get the child free. You aren’t actually renouncing Christ, you are giving wordplay to a deranged mind, nothing more, even if both of you are killed, you have done your absolute best to save that child.

If both of you got killed you have done your absolute best to renounce Christ. There is no rationalizing that away. And that is what rationalizing is about it, it is trying to make excuses for the evil (denial of Christ) that we are about to do.

And, if there is a chance I would die anyway, isn’t it Christ that layed down his life for us? Are you going to cling to it, even putting your own soul in jeopardy in the process for another?

Exactly my point. God died for us and yet here you are saying that you are willingt to put your soul in jeopardy by denying Him so you can cling to your and your child’s physical life.

Christ said do not be afraid of those who can kill your physical body but those that can kill your soul.

The madman has no control over your soul. He is not to be feared.

God knows the circumstance, he knows what is in your heart, he knows what you did was not to be against him, not to be angry with him, but to only save this one life and not for testimony for or against him for this end.

Then this is where a lack of trust comes. If we follow God’s word, we can’t go wrong. It is when we do not trust enough that we make choices that are so against His command.

There are two basic commandments. Love God and Love thy neighbour.

While saving someone’s life (loving thy neighbour) is very good indeed, the Love God bit comes first. That is why in the tablet you have the first 3 commandments relating to loving God first, then the last 7 relating to loving your neighbour.

Love of God takes pre-eminence. We cannot rationalize / justify ever denying Him.

• You are in control, as in you have the capacity to think and react rationally, the madman does not.

No you are not. You are dancing to a mandman’s tune.

Let’s extend the scenario.

Madman: Renounce Christ.
Prod12: I renounce Christ
Madman: No I mean say that Christ is not God but an evil human being
Prod12: Christ is not God but an evil human being
Madman: No more than that, say Christ is some crazy %#4S lunatic.
Prod12: Christ is…?
And the madman keeps going on and on his words getting even more vile and abominable…

So, will you keep riding along with him? How far will you go? Can you keep rationalizing that to the very end.

And let us suppose that he does finally let you and the child go… Think of all the most evil things you would have said… All because you treasured your and this child’s physical life…

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and **with all your strength, **and you shall love your neighbour as yourself.

Love of God always comes first.

 

[Pamm]

I know exactly how I would respond to this …without any doubt. What a person says and what a person “believes” is not often the truth. I would, in the heat of the moment, say “anything” to protect my child – but would I believe it? Absolutely not! I am confident with a confession that God would understand and forgive me.

 

[dsears]

I don’t think I would. But then again I would probably try to tackle the person with the gun before he knew what was happening. I think that would probably be the better thing considering I’m about 50 pounds over weight. (I weigh about 250 and should weigh about 200). I think I could take them down.