Would you renounce Jesus Christ in exchange for your child's life?

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I know this sounds like sort of a sadistic question, and God forbid anything like this ever happen, but it really got me thinking…

If someone had a gun to your child’s head and said they’d shoot unless you renounced Jesus Christ - what would you do?

(Sorry if this has been brought up before, or if this is in the wrong section. My bad)
It is a hard question but I will pray that I will not renounce Jesus. Even lip-service renunciation is still renunciation.

That is why we all need to pray for grace. Not to be put to such a test and to be able to do the right thing should such a test arise.

Mark 10: 32 - 39
Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father. "Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. For I have come to set a man ‘against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one’s enemies will be those of his household.’ "Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever does not take up his cross 15 and follow after me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. "

St Rita of Casia prayed for God to take her children’s life before they commited a mortal sin.

There is more to life than this life.
 
Perfect, and absolutely, in total agreement in full!!! Even if the person was told a number of things they had to do to prove it and it didn’t harm another, it too would have been forgiven before ever being committed.
Sins are not forgiven before they are commited. We do not ask for forgiveness for a sin and then go ahead and do it. That is making a mockery of forgiveness.

If the madman is indeed mad, what is to prevent him from shooting you after he has shot your child. You then go to your death having denied Christ. Goodness has power to conquer evil. By denouncing Christ we are answering evil with evil.

No good end will ever justifies evil means. All one can hope for is a mitigation.

I think it was St Theresa of Avila who was asked if she would tell a white lie to save a soul from hell and she said No.
 
I would say whatever a gunman wanted me to say, to save my child’s life. It would have no lasting meaning because my saying it under duress is not the truth. I simply will not have my child die of my accord. Now, if the scenario was to renounce in exchange for *my own *life, that is a different matter.
Indeed, it is quite a suffering to watch someone we love suffer. Yet this is what Mary went through. We need to take a cue from her.

If the question was put to her, (if she renounced God her child would live), do you think she would do it?

And it is to her we say “Pray for us sinners NOW and at the hour of our death”.

This is why as hypothetical as this question is, it really brings home the words in the Our Father… do not lead us to the test…

But we must also pray that should the test come anyway, that we may overcome. We need to pray for much grace in times of trial.
 
If this were a real life situation. I would pray to God to pour down His peace on my child so that he will not be afraid. To protect him and take him peacefully if possible. And I will pray for grace to accept that I had chosen that and for grace to forgive this man who has put me in such a situation.

Above all I will prace for grace not to deny Him ever.
 
I have three children (adults now) and yes, the thought of such a scenario immediately makes my gut wrench.

But I see a lot of ‘rationalization’ going on here. A lot of talk that attempts to put all the ‘wrong’ of a renouncing of Christ onto the gunman. It is tacitly assumed that of course we wouldn’t really renounce Christ, we’re only *pretending, *we are using mental reservation, etc.

But when it comes right down to it. . .no matter how much we justify ourselves, or say we’re only speaking with ‘the lips’. . .we are speaking, right?

The early Christian martyrs faced these scenarios for real. They saw their children torn from their arms and were told ‘worship the emperor or we’ll throw your child to the lions. . .boil them in oil. . .cut their throats. . . burn them alive. . .’

And did the martyrs say, “oh yes, I renounce Christ, give me my child?”

No.

Because the martyrs saw (alas more clearly than we see today in our very secular and ‘rational’ world) that no matter how ‘logical’ the decision would be to ‘secretly’ worship Christ but to renounce him when they–or their families–were in danger wasn’t really worshipping Christ at all.

How far would Christianity have gone if the first Christians acted as so many propose in the ‘gunman’ scenario? Virtually every Christian approached by the Jews or the Romans with “renounce Christ or we will kill your child” could have cheerfully 'renounced Christ". After all, they would still ‘worship Him’ in their heart. . .

So. . . just another little cult, right? paying lip service to the Jews or Romans, the Christian god is so unimportant that nobody will even speak up for him. Who then is more important --our child or our God?

Do you really think that should we courageously say, “I refuse to renounce God for your sick emotional blackmail”. . .and this person actually DID do the unspeakable evil of killing a loved one–that God would be there going, “oh tsk tsk. Look at the waste. Why didn’t you save your child you stupid git?”

God would be there in our hearts, rather, assuring us our child was safe in His loving arms, that our action was both good and honorable, and that since we had not forsaken Him, He would never forsake us.

Worldly wisdom is foolishness in the eyes of God. . .Scripture says it and I believe it.

God knows that I would hate to be put into the situation, but no matter how I might try to rationalize and excuse my renunciation, there is no question but that I would be at fault should I renounce God. We may NOT do evil even if good results.
Bravo!!! Very well said indeed !!! :clapping:
 
You do remember Peter renouncing Christ 3 times to save his own skin right? You are telling us that you would be better then him?
**He was terribly wrong, repented of his sin & died a martyr proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

“And immediately the cock crowed a second time. And Peter remembered how Jesus had said to him, “Before the cock crows twice, you will deny me three times.” And he broke down and wept.” (Mk 14:72)**

The ends never justify the means & hopefully no one would have to die, but denying Jesus is not a good thing!

If we deny Jesus, we are denigrating all those who suffered & died so we can worship freely.

Most of us deny Jesus everyday. We do not talk about our Catholic Faith, we do not live a life that inspires others to be like Jesus & we show no outward signs of being Catholic, as we are afraid to be humiliated or embarrassed.

Pray that we all have the courage to proudly proclaim & live the love of Jesus in our everyday lives!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark
 
These examples are like apples and oranges. The example of Mary is like the example of Maccabees. The mother witnessed it, but the cause of the child’s death is not due to the *mother’s *refusal to renounce, but due the person’s own refusal to renounce. There’s a big difference.

I am guessing that most if not all of you here have no children. I suppose it’s easy, because you’re not emotionally attached to your hypothetical child, to think you could give up his life; but I find it disconcerting that you could so easily consider giving your child’s life in return for your own good. Especially considering the renouncing is done under duress…it’s not a true change of heart, it’s simply words.

A better moral scenario to pose would be one where there was no duress involved. A scenario that would really bring home whether someone was living for Christ or living for themselves.
 
Um, that’s a big supposition there. (I do have children, I said so, three of them).

Let me put it this way.

I’m alive. My child is alive. Are we going to stay alive **on this earth **forever?

No, we are not.

It seems that some people are saying that ‘time on earth’ for one’s child is more important than professing one’s eternal faith --in other words, in wagering one’s IMMORTAL SOUL–

And I’m saying that this is balderdash.

Who is more important–God, whom I am either saying I believe in, or ‘renouncing’ at the behest of some bozo– or my child?

Well, this is going to stick in the craw of some, apparently, but I happen to know that my child, while the most important being on earth to me, is still **not so important as God.

**if I am somehow put into the point where the choice is “Either your child’s temporal life, which in any case is not ultimately yours, or his, but God’s” --or your immortal soul. . .well, I have to go with my soul. Not because I don’t love my child. . .in fact, I would not love my child so well loved I not another (God) **more.

**Another excellent poster spoke very well of commending the child (and of course ourselves) to God and trusting in God.

I guess I’m an ‘old fogey’ but I simply cannot imagine that buying some limited ‘earth time’ for my child is more important than my faith in God. What would I accomplish? My own damnation, and what kind of example would I give my child? How could I expect my child to know and serve the Lord when my own example would be that I bailed? What kind of faith is that? It’s no faith. I wasn’t put on this earth in order to have my child, and the result of that being that ‘at all costs’ including my own damnation I should ‘buy time’ just in order that my child ‘live’ on earth. I’m supposed to be working to ensure my child’s faith and salvation, not ‘just’ his earthly existence, for God’s sake!
 
To be honest, no one knows what they would do in this situation. We can only hope and pray for the strength to do the right thing. I’m still don’t think a person can truly renounce in this situation. Most people can’t even think in a situation like this much less renounce something. Think about something that you truly renounce like abortion or something. If the gunman put that same gun to your head and told you to say that you don’t renounce abortion is that going to stop you from cringing or being sad when you hear about an abortion…it doesn’t. So, while one may lie in a situation like this which is definitely wrong there is no renunciation. The gunman probably knows you didn’t truly renounce. The person with the child probably isn’t even thinking…he or she is more or less repeating the words the gunmen wants to hear…all in 5 to 10 second time frame…again not much time to think and make an individual decision. I can’t say that’s a true renunciation and I’m not sure God would think so either. Especially if the person didn’t even realize what they said until after it was said.
 
Granted that one would certainly not be thinking clearly, Malia, one would still be thinking.

And if (God forbid) one did blurt out “I renounce” when under such stress, the minute that one ‘realized what one had said’, one is obliged to say, “No, I renounce the renunciation.”

Honestly, it seems to me that people are bending over so far backward to excuse and to theorize and hypothetical and all.

No matter how we want to slice it, it’s still baloney if we think that we are so ‘undisciplined’ and so psychologically distraught etc. that we are going to wind up ‘renouncing God without REALLY renouncing Him’ so it’s all okay in the end. . .
 
Granted that one would certainly not be thinking clearly, Malia, one would still be thinking.

And if (God forbid) one did blurt out “I renounce” when under such stress, the minute that one ‘realized what one had said’, one is obliged to say, “No, I renounce the renunciation.”

Honestly, it seems to me that people are bending over so far backward to excuse and to theorize and hypothetical and all.

No matter how we want to slice it, it’s still baloney if we think that we are so ‘undisciplined’ and so psychologically distraught etc. that we are going to wind up ‘renouncing God without REALLY renouncing Him’ so it’s all okay in the end. . .
It’s only baloney if it’s untrue and only God knows for sure if it’s baloney.

As for excusing, theorizing, being undisciplined and being psychologically distraught, you’d have to know everyone person who has ever been in this kind of situation in order to say it’s baloney because like it or not…we are human and we can be undisciplined and psychologically distraught that’s why we need God and that’s why he would probably forgive a person in this situation…and saying you renounce and really renouncing are two different things…we’ve got people saying they are Christian but we can tell by their actions that either they are not Christian or they are having problems with being a Christian. People can say they are going to do loads of things…but if they end up not doing it…does it mean they did it because they said they did?

Also, in this situation, one can argue that thinking may not have been involved and that it was a reflex action depending on the time taking to commit the offending action. This is often the difference in many a court case between murder and manslaughter. I wonder how come you don’t believe this since Catholics believe that a mortal sin has not been committed if the person isn’t aware that it is a sin.
 
Renouncing would be a mortal sin, right?

well, if I’ve learn correctly, three things must be involved in committing a mortal sin to Catholics:

very grave matter, sufficient/adequate knowledge of the sin, fully consented by his will

All three of these things can not happen in the situation described by the OP, therefore no mortal sin…only venial…no renunciation at least in the Catholic Church.

Ironically in the Protestant faith, saying you renounce and actually renouncing would be equally just as grave.
 
These examples are like apples and oranges. The example of Mary is like the example of Maccabees. The mother witnessed it, but the cause of the child’s death is not due to the *mother’s *refusal to renounce, but due the person’s own refusal to renounce. There’s a big difference.
There might be a big emotional difference… but morally, the scenario is virtually the same: martyrdom or sin. The mother is not causing the death of her children – the guilt lies fully in the hands of the executioners, and she would do well (if possible) to be fully aware of that fact.
I am guessing that most if not all of you here have no children. I suppose it’s easy, because you’re not emotionally attached to your hypothetical child, to think you could give up his life; but I find it disconcerting that you could so easily consider giving your child’s life in return for your own good.
Hopefully everyone here would rather to take the place of their child. Because it’s not a “my life, or my child’s life” scenario… it’s a “sin against God or suffer” scenario.
Especially considering the renouncing is done under duress…it’s not a true change of heart, it’s simply words.
Duress might certainly mitigate the guilt of the victims involved, but the sin is objectively just as serious as ever.
Renouncing would be a mortal sin, right?
It’s grave matter, so it definitely could be a mortal sin, if all the requirements are fulfilled (admittedly unlikely).
Ironically in the Protestant faith, saying you renounce and actually renouncing would be equally just as grave.
The Church distinguishes between objective gravity and subjective culpability. It can be a mortally sinful action, even if there are mitigating circumstances (such as duress) that reduce the subjective culpability of the individual in those conditions, so that they only incur the guilt of a venial sin.
 
Again, I think that people are making much too great an effort to ‘excuse’ a Christian for abjuring his/her faith.

And we need to be aware that this is precisely the sort of ‘fuzzy thinking’ that is meant to make us be swayed toward relativism and indifferentism and rationalization.

It doesn’t matter if the ‘gunman’ is holding a gun to our head, to the head of our child, our spouse, our parent, Mother Teresa. . .the issue is not (as some seem to imply) that we can only ‘sacrifice’ our own selves and that somehow, if the question is put as ‘renounce Christ or somebody else will die’, we are **obligated **to ‘renounce’ because the other person’s life is worth ‘more’ than our words.

Squirming around with "but you don’t really ‘mean’ to renounce, you’re only saying it to get the gunman to put the gun down’ is again semantics. And making all sorts of inferences like "the gunman knows you don’t really mean it but he’s doing it for a political statement etc’. is again, just so much red herring and window dressing.

Either we believe in God, or we don’t.

If we believe, we either profess our faith. . .or we renounce it.
There isn’t a middle ground. There isn’t a conditional, ‘well, I believe in God but I will cross my fingers and lie if the situation warrants and God will understand and forgive me if I even have sinned and probably I haven’t because after all I am being forced to do this.’

Thousands and thousands of people throughout history have been given this choice. . .and they have been in just such ‘horrible’ circumstances. They’ve known that they --or their father, mother, husband, wife, child will die if they affirm their faith in Christ. And they have done so knowing the price they pay.

Do you remember Columbine? Do you remember the one young woman who was approached by the gunmen and asked if she believed in Christ? Here is a young woman in a situation in which I’m sure most of you would say that, hey, she’s YOUNG, she’s scared, God will understand, all she had to do was say ‘no’. . .

She said ‘yes I believe’ and they killed her. I suppose many will think she died for nothing, and wonder at the ‘waste’ when she could have just ‘believed in her heart’ but rejected with her lips and thus be alive today. . .😦

And I wonder how she must be feeling knowing how few people seem to find, not even the courage now, but the actual DESIRE to affirm their faith in God. Because it seems to me that many people on here don’t even think that stating faith in God in a situation like the above is even NECESSARY, let alone courageous. And that saddens me.
 
Again, apples and oranges. They asked her, and they killed her not someone else, much less, hypothetically, her own child*.*

Again, there is the concept of duress involved in the OP’s scenario, which seems to be overlooked. Even the Church says that a mortal sin requires grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent.

Anyway, we will have to agree to disagree, as I see no value in a discussion that goes in circles. Pax.
 
Again, there is the concept of duress involved in the OP’s scenario, which seems to be overlooked.
…yes, but because it only affects the subjective guilt of the sinner – not the objective nature of the sin involved, or the ethics of the scenario in question. I was just trying to establish that distinction.
 
I know this sounds like sort of a sadistic question, and God forbid anything like this ever happen, but it really got me thinking…

If someone had a gun to your child’s head and said they’d shoot unless you renounced Jesus Christ - what would you do?

(Sorry if this has been brought up before, or if this is in the wrong section. My bad)
Depeneds on what you mean by “life”? There is earthly life, which lasts about 80 years or so, then there is your spirit, which is eternal. You are thinking or mere earthly life.
 
Either we believe in God, or we don’t.

If we believe, we either profess our faith. . .or we renounce it.
There isn’t a middle ground. There isn’t a conditional, ‘well, I believe in God but I will cross my fingers and lie if the situation warrants and God will understand and forgive me if I even have sinned and probably I haven’t because after all I am being forced to do this.’

Thousands and thousands of people throughout history have been given this choice. . .and they have been in just such ‘horrible’ circumstances. They’ve known that they --or their father, mother, husband, wife, child will die if they affirm their faith in Christ. And they have done so knowing the price they pay.

Do you remember Columbine? Do you remember the one young woman who was approached by the gunmen and asked if she believed in Christ? Here is a young woman in a situation in which I’m sure most of you would say that, hey, she’s YOUNG, she’s scared, God will understand, all she had to do was say ‘no’. . .

She said ‘yes I believe’ and they killed her. I suppose many will think she died for nothing, and wonder at the ‘waste’ when she could have just ‘believed in her heart’ but rejected with her lips and thus be alive today. . .😦

And I wonder how she must be feeling knowing how few people seem to find, not even the courage now, but the actual DESIRE to affirm their faith in God. Because it seems to me that many people on here don’t even think that stating faith in God in a situation like the above is even NECESSARY, let alone courageous. And that saddens me.
You are talking about two different things 1.) I think it’s great what the young lady did and no I don’t think it’s a waste but 2) that doesn’t mean you get to condemn the person who did say it because no one knows what was going on in their minds/hearts only God can do and know that. Are you trying to say that merely saying something makes it true? Are you trying to say that someone who believes in God stops believing or really didn’t believe if they were to say they renounce in this situation? Do you think God would not show mercy in some of these situations depending on the person? Do you think that the parent of the child in this situation would walk away from the incident and never have anything to do with the Church again? Do you think God would not forgive if they confessed and were truly sorry? If the person has come back to the church, confessed and been forgiven, do you think they truly renounced? and these questions only apply to a person who had even some time to think and renounced. These questions probably don’t apply to those who blurted out the renouncement before thinking about it.
 
Again, apples and oranges. They asked her, and they killed her not someone else, much less, hypothetically, her own child*.*

Again, there is the concept of duress involved in the OP’s scenario, which seems to be overlooked. Even the Church says that a mortal sin requires grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent.

Anyway, we will have to agree to disagree, as I see no value in a discussion that goes in circles. Pax.
Maybe someone could ask an apologist… 🤷
 
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