Would you support the Traditional Latin Mass in the vernacular?

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Lycorth said:
That would make it much simpler to use Latin than Aramaic, or even the earlier Greek. Though, to be sure, the use of either Aramaic or Latin would bring in the dead language advantage, though again the Church has much more experience using Latin than Aramaic.
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People I’ve talked to concede that the modern Greek and Aramaic is a little different from the Christ-era Greek and Aramaic. In other words, we don’t know the precise language (and what it meant back then) of the first consecration but we can come up with possibilities and probabilities. St. Jerome’s Vulgate, which is a consolidation of the original Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and other languages, is probably just as good as the original sources if we’re only to use one source. At least we don’t have to deal with transliterated alphabets. 🙂
 
Lycorth said:
Great observation; food for thought 🙂

Actually, wouldn’t Latin be a third translation, since Greek was the language of the Church prior to the adoption of Latin?

I see your argument, but the machinery for the use of Latin is already still in place within the Church, and the Church has much more experience in using Latin than Aramaic. That would make it much simpler to use Latin than Aramaic, or even the earlier Greek. Though, to be sure, the use of either Aramaic or Latin would bring in the dead language advantage, though again the Church has much more experience using Latin than Aramaic.

Not an option where I live.

Sure, but only where abuses or mistakes in language are concerned. The Mass of Paul VI, either in Latin or the vernacular, has fewer and less-strict rubrics than the Traditional Mass, issues which can only be amended by the Vatican restoring traditional rubrics.
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some portions of the Mass may have originated in Greek, which is true. but since the words for Consecration and the Our Father have been spoken by Jesus directly to a Jewish audience, they would have originated in Aramaic. when penned down in Greek for the Gospels, it would already have been translated for the first time from the original words Jesus used

if your concern are abuses, then stricter rubrics are the answer, but again thats not tied down to Latin. i would imagine that Eastern Divine Liturgies would have their own strict rubrics but obviously they’re not in Latin. so there’s no reason we cannot implement strict rubrics in vernacular
 
choy said:
some portions of the Mass may have originated in Greek, which is true. but since the words for Consecration and the Our Father have been spoken by Jesus directly to a Jewish audience, they would have originated in Aramaic. when penned down in Greek for the Gospels, it would already have been translated for the first time from the original words Jesus used

if your concern are abuses, then stricter rubrics are the answer, but again thats not tied down to Latin. i would imagine that Eastern Divine Liturgies would have their own strict rubrics but obviously they’re not in Latin. ** so there’s no reason we cannot implement strict rubrics in vernacular**
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Amen! 👍
 
i would imagine that Eastern Divine Liturgies would have their own strict rubrics but obviously they’re not in Latin.
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The Easterners seem to have no particular attachment to Latin. Why should they? Didn’t the Romans conquer the Greeks and they’re still bitter about it? 🙂

Seriously, though, I would like to know how many of the old Eastern vernaculars have never been changed. I’m not just talking sections of the Mass but the actual wording of the Pater Noster, for example.
so there’s no reason we cannot implement strict rubrics in vernacular
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I don’t know about some of the other vernaculars but 40 years of modern and ever changing English haven’t been able to implement any strictness in anything. Even Presidents and English teachers manage to butcher the language. You don’t want them to do the same with the Mass.
 
ProVobis said:
The Easterners seem to have no particular attachment to Latin. Why should they? Didn’t the Romans conquer the Greeks and they’re still bitter about it? 🙂

Seriously, though, I would like to know how many of the old Eastern vernaculars have never been changed. I’m not just talking sections of the Mass but the actual wording of the Pater Noster, for example.
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the point there was, there is always a tie-up between stricter rubrics and a Latin mass. i was merely making the point that the East have had stricter rubrics in their own languages. so you don’t necessarily need to revert to Latin to implement the stricter rubrics, just implement the stricter rubrics
ProVobis said:
I don’t know about some of the other vernaculars but 40 years of modern and ever changing English haven’t been able to implement any strictness in anything. Even Presidents and English teachers manage to butcher the language. You don’t want them to do the same with the Mass.
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don’t forget that when the first Latin mass was said, it was in the vernacular, and Latin was a living language back then. i’m pretty sure there are people back then with the same complaint as you have, and would rather have the Mass in Greek.
 
it looks like it is the way i think it is. unless you care to point out what you’re trying to say
 
it looks like it is the way i think it is. unless you care to point out what you’re trying to say
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What I’m trying to say is that Latin was not the vernacular to the extent you said it was. The Romance languages were gaining prominence and Latin was doomed, according to the report. So how was it in the vernacular? You use the word a lot post after post after post but do you even know what the word “vernacular” means, except in a self-serving context? I doubt it.
 
ProVobis said:
What I’m trying to say is that Latin was not the vernacular to the extent you said it was. The Romance languages were gaining prominence and Latin was doomed, according to the report. So how was it in the vernacular? You use the word a lot post after post after post but do you even know what the word “vernacular” means, except in a self-serving context? I doubt it.
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thats not what i read. the part about the Romance language was discussing the death of Latin, but in no way was connected to the time Latin was adopted for Liturgy. when did the Latin Liturgy start? because the Romance languages never really began until the decline of the empire itself, which is in the 500s
 
choy said:
thats not what i read.
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Apparently your definition of vernacular is different from mine so any further discussion on the matter between us would be to no benefit to either of us. So we’ll have to agree to disagree and move on.
 
For all you who are continueing to follow the post here is a fine example of the traditional divine office in the vernacular language I put together for a few friends.

I guarantee that if you could actually participate and sing this with me in person you would be convinced you that it is a pure, living, breathing, legitimate, holy catholic, apostolic tradition…which will someday soon be fully revived.

VESPERS for the Feast of the Most Holy Body of Christ.pdf

pray it, sing it, know it, live it, bring it to the Church 👍
 
Chris_McAvoy said:
For all you who are continueing to follow the post here is a fine example of the traditional divine office in the vernacular language I put together for a few friends.
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Elizabethean English (with the arts, thous, thees, thines) isn’t what I would consider today’s vernacular but it appears to be pretty good, having read the first 10 pages or so.
 
Chris_McAvoy said:
For all you who are continueing to follow the post here is a fine example of the traditional divine office in the vernacular language I put together for a few friends.

I guarantee that if you could actually participate and sing this with me in person you would be convinced you that it is a pure, living, breathing, legitimate, holy catholic, apostolic tradition…which will someday soon be fully revived.

VESPERS for the Feast of the Most Holy Body of Christ.pdf

pray it, sing it, know it, live it, bring it to the Church 👍
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If people want to see examples, all they need to do is look at the older Anglican prayer books. One could easily consider the ones the Anglican use parishes use if preferred. Here is a link to the Canadian BCP.
 
No - definitively - I am 75 years old and committed myself since my cradle with the rite as it was at that time - I learned Latin by hearing and praying the breviary and it has been most rewarding to me - I am even a certified translator of Latin-Spanish although I have never taken a single Latin language class. People has been praying in Latin for so many centuries that I just cannot imagine what would be praying in vernacular! (worse still if it’s in English - sorry but I think English is not a beautiful language (I’m Peruvian in Peru).
 
Bluegoat said:
If people want to see examples, all they need to do is look at the older Anglican prayer books. One could easily consider the ones the Anglican use parishes use if preferred. Here is a link to the Canadian BCP.
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i’ve been curious about the Anglican Use mass and wondering if its available here in Canada. are there Anglicans here reuniting with Rome?
 
choy said:
i’ve been curious about the Anglican Use mass and wondering if its available here in Canada. are there Anglicans here reuniting with Rome?
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I haven’t heard of any that have committed to going as parishes or large groups, and I’m pretty sure there are none in my province. Of course there are people who convert individually. The Anglican use parishes in existence now are all in the US as far as I know.

I see you are in BC though - of any place in Canada it would be a great one to find disenchanted, disenfranchised Anglicans.
 
Personally, I’d strongly support it. 🙂 But I would only support it if it were properly translated as I am sure that has already been done. 👍
 
Bluegoat said:
I haven’t heard of any that have committed to going as parishes or large groups, and I’m pretty sure there are none in my province. Of course there are people who convert individually. The Anglican use parishes in existence now are all in the US as far as I know.

I see you are in BC though - of any place in Canada it would be a great one to find disenchanted, disenfranchised Anglicans.
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i pass by an Anglican church every day i go home. i’m waiting for the big banner to come up saying they’re back with Rome 👍 then i’ll attend mass there one Sunday
 
voltape said:
People has been praying in Latin for so many centuries that I just cannot imagine what would be praying in vernacular! (worse still if it’s in English - sorry but I think English is not a beautiful language (I’m Peruvian in Peru).
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👍👍👍

I’m along the same lines. English was not my first language and I was basically English illiterate in grade school. After studying Latin and its grammar, I advanced myself in English rather quickly, finally earning an English excellency award in high school. I can vouch for the fact that English is a difficult language to learn. It’s especially difficult to listen to, and with all its homophones and close homophones, its weakness in second person identification, and its constant changing in meanings, makes it not very well suited for Mass, in my opinion. In private prayer, okay. In missionary work, okay. But in Mass, one can do better. And no need to argue about translation if we just leave it in Latin. It worked for over 1600 years; no good reason why it can’t continue that way.

Sursum corda (Upwards, hearts)
 
ProVobis said:
👍👍👍

I can vouch for the fact that English is a difficult language to learn. It’s especially difficult to listen to, and with all its homophones and close homophones, its weakness in second person identification, and its constant changing in meanings, makes it not very well suited for Mass, in my opinion. In private prayer, okay. In missionary work, okay. But in Mass, one can do better. And no need to argue about translation if we just leave it in Latin. It worked for over 1600 years; no good reason why it can’t continue that way.

Sursum corda (Upwards, hearts)
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Not suited for Mass?! The language of Shakespeare? Say it isn’t so!

I’ll rebut with one of my favorites from the ACC’s Eucharistic Liturgy, the Prayer of Humble Access:
WE do not presume to come to this thy Table, O merciful Lord, Trusting in our own righteousness, But in thy manifold and great mercies. We are not worthy So much as to gather up the crumbs under thy Table. But thou art the same Lord, Whose property is always to have mercy: Grant us therefore, gracious Lord, So to eat the Flesh of thy dear Son Jesus Christ, And to drink his Blood, That our sinful bodies may be made clean by his Body, And our souls washed through his most precious Blood, And that we may evermore dwell in him, And he in us. Amen.*

or maybe the Gloria?
*
GLORY be to God on high, and in earth peace, good will towards men. We praise thee, we bless thee, we worship thee, we glorify thee, we give thanks to thee for thy great glory, O Lord God, heavenly King, God the Father Almighty.

O Lord, the only-begotten Son, Jesu Christ; O Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father, that takest away the sin of the world, have mercy upon us. Thou that takest away the sin of the world, receive our prayer. Thou that sittest at the right hand of God the Father, have mercy upon us.

For thou only art holy; thou only art the Lord; thou only, O Christ, with the Holy Ghost, art most high in the glory of God the Father. Amen.*

I do love Latin, don’t get me wrong, but no need to throw out the baby with the bath-water. Just those terrible 20th century “poets” they hired to write the new liturgies.
 
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