A
At_Trent
Guest
The EF will never be prayed in the vernacular as the norm. Aint gonna happen.
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P
ProVobis
Guest
Shakespearean or Elizabethan English is not current vernacular.
Talk reverence all you want but how do you prevent something like this from being adopted?
mypeoplepc.com/members/whitemanfamily/Catholic_Caveman/id6.html
or this misinterpretation?
youtube.com/watch?v=7-ZnPE3G_YY
B
Bluegoat
Guest
It is still the same language, one eminently suited to literature. The BCP, though written during that period, up to the 20th century was edited for clarity periodically in a conservative way. So the liturgies there now are easily understandable by anyone, while preserving many of the qualities of that particularly great period in the English language.
As to your links - are you serious? These are spoofs. If people are that stupid, Latin won’t help. The second one is a perfectly good hymn, it is just a joke about common lyricosis - the people doing the singing know what they are saying, and no one really thinks they are singing those words in the video. Besides, common lyricosis can happen in Latin too
T
Timothysis
Guest
It is amazing to me that those who say they are devoted to and love the Church so much would pass along things like this which make a mockery of the liturgy.
How can one love the Church, yet despise a liturgy that celebrates the Eucharistic Mystery?
A
At_Trent
Guest
Some people practice Roman Catholicism. When presented with an about face, they tend to reject it.
M
mangy_dog
Guest
In fact,
All we have to do is look at all the “liberties” that some priests take with the wording and actions during the current Novus Ordo.
Using Latin doesn’t allow for deviations in wording or actions. TLM is the whole package.
All we have to do is look at all the “liberties” that some priests take with the wording and actions during the current Novus Ordo.
Using Latin doesn’t allow for deviations in wording or actions. TLM is the whole package.
P
ProVobis
Guest
Mockery of the liturgy or mockery of manipulated translations? Big difference.
P
ProVobis
Guest
Same language, really? Here’s the Our Father in Old English:
Fæder ure,
ðu ðe eart on heofenum,
si ðin nama gehalgod;
to-becume ðin rice;
geweorþe ðin willa on eorðan swa swa on heofenum.
Urne ge dæghwamlican hlaf syle us to-deag,
and forgyf us ure gyltas
swa swa we forgifaþ urum gyltendum,
ane ne gelæde ðu us on costnunge, ac alys us of yfle.
Amen.
Are you still going to tell me this is the same language? If not, where do you draw the line? Middle English?
Oure fadir þat art in heuenes halwid be þi name;
þi reume or kyngdom come to be.
Be þi wille don in herþe as it is doun in heuene.
yeue to us today oure eche dayes bred.
And foryeue to us oure dettis þat is oure synnys as we foryeuen to oure dettouris þat is to men þat han synned in us.
And lede us not into temptacion but delyuere us from euyl.
Or Chaucerian English? Or Elizabethan English? Or Shakespearean English?
It seems as if Cliff’s Notes made a killing just translating English books to English. I think I’d rather use a Latin missal than Cliff’s Notes in Church.
Like the phone number, ETCUMSPIRIT 220? At least it’s funny and everyone knows it’s funny. But hearing songs with sounds like “Bringing in the cheese” can have a damaging and permanent effect on one’s theology, I would think.
M
MarkThompson
Guest
Unless they actually know Latin. Then they can spout off on whatever they feel like. Not to say they should, and I commend you for taking a black cloud (priests don’t know the language of the Mass they’re celebrating very well) and finding a silver lining (they can’t make it up if they can’t speak it), but this is really just an argument against good Latin education.
M
MarkThompson
Guest
I realize you’re making your point, PV, but this looks a lot more alien because of the highly archaic spelling, the thorn character (þ), and a couple of orthographic idiosyncrasies, like the harder quality of the y. The diction is also old-fashioned, but if you heard this spoken out loud, it would probably sound about as English as someone today speaking in a really thick Welsh or Scottish accent, þat is (i.e.), perfectly understandable after a moment or two to become accustomed to it.
O
Ockham
Guest
Mark, shouldn’t you be at the parade?
Have you studied Latin?
Have you studied Latin?
M
MarkThompson
Guest
Would have been fun to get down there for that, although it does look like it’s about to pour at any minute.
And yes, I have studied Latin, enough to read and translate but not to spout off on random topics.
O
Ockham
Guest
Cool. I’m trying to find the right fit to begin Latin studies.
Are you a Cubs fan?
T
Trick
Guest
I would favor the use of the Traditional Latin Mass, being prayed in the vernacular, with the exeption of some of the prayers to be recited in Greek & Latin.
I would definetly like the return of the use of the Altar Rail,build them back if they have been removed.
I would definetly like the return of the use of the Altar Rail,build them back if they have been removed.
B
Bluegoat
Guest
old English is clearly not the same as Elizabethan English, and is concidered a different language. In any case, the BCP has been updated as time has gone on, so it would strictly speaking be wrong to call it Elizabethan English. A modern BCP, which is what you commented on, can be understood by all.Same language, really? Here’s the Our Father in Old English:
Fæder ure,
ðu ðe eart on heofenum,
si ðin nama gehalgod;
to-becume ðin rice;
geweorþe ðin willa on eorðan swa swa on heofenum.
Urne ge dæghwamlican hlaf syle us to-deag,
and forgyf us ure gyltas
swa swa we forgifaþ urum gyltendum,
ane ne gelæde ðu us on costnunge, ac alys us of yfle.
Amen.
Are you still going to tell me this is the same language? If not, where do you draw the line? Middle English?
Oure fadir þat art in heuenes halwid be þi name;
þi reume or kyngdom come to be.
Be þi wille don in herþe as it is doun in heuene.
yeue to us today oure eche dayes bred.
And foryeue to us oure dettis þat is oure synnys as we foryeuen to oure dettouris þat is to men þat han synned in us.
And lede us not into temptacion but delyuere us from euyl.
Or Chaucerian English? Or Elizabethan English? Or Shakespearean English?
It seems as if Cliff’s Notes made a killing just translating English books to English. I think I’d rather use a Latin missal than Cliff’s Notes in Church.
Like the phone number, ETCUMSPIRIT 220? At least it’s funny and everyone knows it’s funny. But hearing songs with sounds like “Bringing in the cheese” can have a damaging and permanent effect on one’s theology, I would think.
Cliff, for the record, deals with many English texts.
Mistaking an actual hymn verse for “bringing in the cheese” is unlikely to damage one’s theology unless one is a moron. If so, I would suggest using the hymn book to clear up any questions, just as the people at the TLM will use the translation provided by the translators in their text.
C
choy
Guest
anything to justify dissent
i’m sure Martin Luther has a long list of justifications for doing what he did
J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
In the history of the universe has TLM ever been celebrated in English?
How much would the Sarum Rite practice during the time of Queen Mary in England from 1553 to 1559 vary from TLM of that time or from TLM of 1962?
If people have a heart attack over TLM being celebrated in the vernacular–would they likewise have a problem with the Sarum Rite being celebrated in the vernacular?
Would the Sarum rite celebrated in the vernacular be superior to the current anglican Use that is celebrated in the vernacular?
How much would the Sarum Rite practice during the time of Queen Mary in England from 1553 to 1559 vary from TLM of that time or from TLM of 1962?
If people have a heart attack over TLM being celebrated in the vernacular–would they likewise have a problem with the Sarum Rite being celebrated in the vernacular?
Would the Sarum rite celebrated in the vernacular be superior to the current anglican Use that is celebrated in the vernacular?
M
MarkThompson
Guest
Good luck with the Latin – unfortunately, I learned in mostly in school, so I don’t have a lot of advice for how you would go about learning it on your own, especially if you don’t already have another Romance language. It can be done, though, certainly enough to read religious texts, even if you’re not planning to laugh your way through Apuleius or study Newton in the original.
Cubbies, yeah definitely. This is the year.
O
Ockham
Guest
I’m still working on English so language comprehension isn’t my natural gift. I would like to learn Latin though and will continue searching for a suitable means.Good luck with the Latin – unfortunately, I learned in mostly in school, so I don’t have a lot of advice for how you would go about learning it on your own, especially if you don’t already have another Romance language. It can be done, though, certainly enough to read religious texts, even if you’re not planning to laugh your way through Apuleius or study Newton in the original.
Cubbies, yeah definitely. This is the year.
Hope Faith and Charity. Cubs fans need all three. After my Blue Jays I cheer for the blue and white pin stripes. Maybe this year is the year!
P
ProVobis
Guest
More than likely during the 60’s transition period.
Not a matter of vernacular. The 1962 TLM or the EF now, can only be celebrated in Latin, save for some propers. No rules on the Sarum Rite to my knowledge.
And when you say vernacular, do you mean current English or Elizabethan/Shakespearean English to the exclusion of French or Spanish, for example? Vernacular covers a lot of territory.
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