Would you support the Traditional Latin Mass in the vernacular?

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ProVobis said:
Not a matter of vernacular. The 1962 TLM or the EF now, can only be celebrated in Latin, save for some propers. No rules on the Sarum Rite to my knowledge.
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I didn’t know that!* Which propers, and in which languages?
  • Obviously I know the Kyrie is in Greek. 🙂
 
MarkThompson said:
I didn’t know that!* Which propers, and in which languages?
  • Obviously I know the Kyrie is in Greek. 🙂
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Epistle and Gospel, but I only know of two churches in Chicago that do this. Personally, I don’t see the advantage except to save time as the Epistle and Gospel are otherwise read in the language of the sermon before the sermon.

You’re right the Kyrie is in Greek. And the Hosanna, Amen, Alleluia are in Hebrew. So we’ve got all the languages of the Cross covered. Go Cubs. 🙂
 
Not 100% related to this thread but close enough. One of the most often cited criticisms of the Traditional mass on these forums is the existance of speed Masses, 15 or 20 minutes or less and how utterly horrible they were and how that now, in the new springtime, people are relieved to have a full Mass with homily at every gathering.:extrahappy:

In fact the entire concept of a speed Mass is unthinable these days.

In that vein, I did not want to believe something that I read on Traditio:eek:, so I searched and uncovered this gem.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/church-attendance-soars-with-the-15-minute-mass-14697191.html

So one of the most cited abuses of the Traditional Mass are indeed alive and well these days in the Pauline Mass and apparently deeply appreciated…

Of course, since as the Priest says,

“We are here to **facilitate the congregation **and if there are any further increases in numbers attending, then the more the merrier.”

it seems clear that the progressives will have no trouble at all with this one.👍
 
palmas855 said:
Not 100% related to this thread but close enough. One of the most often cited criticisms of the Traditional mass on these forums is the existance of speed Masses, 15 or 20 minutes or less and how utterly horrible they were and how that now, in the new springtime, people are relieved to have a full Mass with homily at every gathering.:extrahappy:

In fact the entire concept of a speed Mass is unthinable these days.

In that vein, I did not want to believe something that I read on Traditio:eek:, so I searched and uncovered this gem.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/church-attendance-soars-with-the-15-minute-mass-14697191.html

So one of the most cited abuses of the Traditional Mass are indeed alive and well these days in the Pauline Mass and apparently deeply appreciated…

Of course, since as the Priest says,

“We are here to **facilitate the congregation **and if there are any further increases in numbers attending, then the more the merrier.”

it seems clear that the progressives will have no trouble at all with this one.👍
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palmas, I thought that this could bring some interesting comments from our community, so I started a new thread: 15 Minute Mass increases audience size.
 
Very interesting question. I don’t know about this one. I have seen a (heretical LOL) form of the traditional Latin Mass celebrated as a Solemn High Mass in the vernacular at a High Anglican Church, according to the English Missal of 1912 which was a direct translation of the Roman Missal of the time into English.

Personally, having watched a Mass like this, I think once you start to introduce the vernacular things can tend to get a bit messy. What you’d be likely to end up with is bits and pieces, especially Common settings like the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo and Sanctus sung in Latin but other bits in the vernacular.

It would have to be one of those unfortunate cases of either/or: either the whole Mass in the vernacular or the whole Mass in Latin, not a mash-up because that’s nothing if not unhelpful.

But I can definitely see the benefits of it - those that find Latin a hindrance to worship, which is after all likely the vast majority of the faithful, might be more inclined to worship according to the traditional forms. However I have a feeling it’s not going to happen any time soon, after the whole the whole idea of the New Order Mass was to translate it into the vernacular in the first place.
 
zielwolf said:
after the whole the whole idea of the New Order Mass was to translate it into the vernacular in the first place.
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Actually the vernacular started appearing in the transitional Masses before 1970. The New Order Mass was promulgated in Latin and it was hoped that they would use it; however it didn’t sell very well, as least they didn’t think so. I know the couple of times in the 70’s when I attended the Latin NO, it drew quite a crowd, double the size of what we regularly got.
 
ProVobis said:
More than likely during the 60’s transition period.

Not a matter of vernacular. The 1962 TLM or the EF now, can only be celebrated in Latin, save for some propers. No rules on the Sarum Rite to my knowledge.

And when you say vernacular, do you mean current English or Elizabethan/Shakespearean English to the exclusion of French or Spanish, for example? Vernacular covers a lot of territory.
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You forget the Dalmation Rite has not been suppressed; in 1962, the Roman Missal could be celebrated in TWO languages: Latin and Church Slavonic.
 
palmas855 said:
Not 100% related to this thread but close enough. One of the most often cited criticisms of the Traditional mass on these forums is the existance of speed Masses, 15 or 20 minutes or less and how utterly horrible they were and how that now, in the new springtime, people are relieved to have a full Mass with homily at every gathering.:extrahappy:
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You are a bit off there. I’ve never been to a Low Mass that lasted less than 45 minutes, and the weekday NO Masses I attend last about 20 on average.

Actually, I’ve never heard a “criticism of the EF” of it being too short.
 
At_Trent said:
You are a bit off there. I’ve never been to a Low Mass that lasted less than 45 minutes, and the weekday NO Masses I attend last about 20 on average.

Actually, I’ve never heard a “criticism of the EF” of it being too short.
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I don’t think the speed masses are in existence any more. But they were apparently quite common at one time.
 
I don’t think the speed masses are in existence any more. But they were apparently quite common at one time.
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When you had Sunday Masses spread one hour apart and weekday Masses spread 30 minutes apart, you didn’t have much time for long sermons or to wait for readers or gift presenters or EMHC’s to come up or exchanges of peace to be made. There was and still is a sizeable amount of text to be read at the EF. Mock the old rite all you want as far as speed abuse, but it had to be done in less than 30 minutes at one time. It was not seen as an abuse then.
 
Lycorth said:
I have wondered about this myself, and I have seen a few posts on this forum basically expressing similar ideas.

Essentially, would you support the Traditional Latin Mass being merely translated into the vernacular and this being used to replace the current OF?
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JL: No, It isn’t the latin that I find a problem it’s the observer only status of the congregation. In the New Order at the liturgy of the Eucharist I think it would be better for the priest to face the same direction as the people.
 
As for speed masses, I have been to Low Masses recited, and emphasis on the word recited in Latin that lasted 20 minutes with the priest racing through the text as fast as possible (as there were just three of us there), and I wondered, well what’s all this about, is he actually praying or just reading the text; no wonder secular people accuse us of “hocus pocus”.

As a specialist ESL teacher who often has to teach the same thing day in-day out, I know the temptation of just “doing it by rote” and not putting much of your heart into it, especially when you’re doing the same lesson for the 15th time in a week and you totally had enough of it 2 days ago; but hey, that’s my job, and also know the effect that can have on my students - a very obviously negative effect.

Maybe we just need to slooooow down 🙂
 
A CHURCH that is universal must have a universal tongue, whilst a national church, or a church whose members speak one and the same language, and whose doctrines conveniently change to suit the times, can safely adopt the vernacular tongue in it’s liturgy." Cardinal Gibbons Archbishop of Baltimore
 
Speculate: What languages did St. Peter perform Mass in?

What languages did the other disciples perform Mass in?

What language did Jesus perform the first mass in?

Is it true that the first Mass that Jesus performed at the Last Supper–in whatever language He used–is the most perfect Mass of all times?
 
Jerry-Jet said:
Speculate: What languages did St. Peter perform Mass in?

What languages did the other disciples perform Mass in?

What language did Jesus perform the first mass in?

Is it true that the first Mass that Jesus performed at the Last Supper–in whatever language He used–is the most perfect Mass of all times?
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Jesus Christ established a divine institution – His Church, His bride.
It was up to the Church, guided by the Holy Ghost, to establish the manner in which Mass is to be celebrated in order for each Mass to be valid.

Your examples predate the codification of the Mass. Therefore I do not think this kind of speculation applies. The Apostles did not have a ‘form of Mass’ to follow – that was centuries ahead. If language matters I think it’s best to look at the organic development of the Mass, not the first Mass(es).
 
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