YOGA...ooer!

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agnes_therese said:
Not that anyone here was talking about contemplation during yoga.
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I am. I actually agree with the anti-yoga people that trying to interpret yoga as a purely physical exercise is probably mistaken.

Yoga is designed to be a physical practice that prepares one for contemplation. I think this is an important insight into the relationship between physical and spiritual that is entirely compatible with Christianity (in fact, superficially it would seem to fit a Christian view of body/soul relationships better than the one we tend to assume Hindus have, indicating how superficial our understanding of Hinduism is).

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
I am. I actually agree with the anti-yoga people that trying to interpret yoga as a purely physical exercise is probably mistaken.

Yoga is designed to be a physical practice that prepares one for contemplation. I think this is an important insight into the relationship between physical and spiritual that is entirely compatible with Christianity (in fact, superficially it would seem to fit a Christian view of body/soul relationships better than the one we tend to assume Hindus have, indicating how superficial our understanding of Hinduism is).

Edwin
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Well, for me it requires too much concentration on the physical to allow for contemplation.
 
TMC said:
Second, it is not possible to accidentally worship some other god because their is only one God, so any prayers directed to the Deity are either directed at Him or nowhere.
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👍 👍 👍
 
agnes_therese said:
Well, for me it requires too much concentration on the physical to allow for contemplation.
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Hatha yoga per se is physical exercise designed to prepare the way for contemplation. At least in the Iyengar manual I own, meditation is seen as following on from “pranayama” (breathing exercises), which tend to be associated with the “relaxation” poses of yoga. So you do more strenuous physical stuff first, like “sun salutations” (no one has yet picked up on the “idolatrous’” nature of those practices, though I think of them as directed to Christ the Sun of Righteousness!), and end with relaxation. This can lead into pranayama and meditation, although the Iyengar book says that meditation can also be done at a different time of day entirely.

But however it’s done, the idea is that you get your body under control, restoring harmony between mind and body, so that you can meditate and achieve “samadhi” (fairly similar to what the Catholic tradition seems to mean by “contemplation” or “unitive prayer”).

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
Hatha yoga per se is physical exercise designed to prepare the way for contemplation. At least in the Iyengar manual I own, meditation is seen as following on from “pranayama” (breathing exercises), which tend to be associated with the “relaxation” poses of yoga. So you do more strenuous physical stuff first, like “sun salutations” (no one has yet picked up on the “idolatrous’” nature of those practices, though I think of them as directed to Christ the Sun of Righteousness!), and end with relaxation. This can lead into pranayama and meditation, although the Iyengar book says that meditation can also be done at a different time of day entirely.

But however it’s done, the idea is that you get your body under control, restoring harmony between mind and body, so that you can meditate and achieve “samadhi” (fairly similar to what the Catholic tradition seems to mean by “contemplation” or “unitive prayer”).

Edwin
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Preparing the way for contemplation is not the same as contemplation during. I have my own ways of preparing for contemplation, thank you.
 
Contarini said:
But however it’s done, the idea is that you get your body under control, restoring harmony between mind and body, so that you can meditate and achieve “samadhi” (fairly similar to what the Catholic tradition seems to mean by “contemplation” or “unitive prayer”).
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What is interesting to me is that the two traditions use such different terms. Christian “Prayer of Union” and Yoga “Kaivalya” (isolation) as in Yoga Sutra 4.26 Then the mind is inclined towards the highest discrimination, and gravitates towards absolute liberation (more literal “isolation”) between seer and seen.
(tada viveka nimnam kaivalya pragbharam chittam) . en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaivalya

I personally think they are very different interpretations of the same experience.
 
Michael_Mayo said:
What is interesting to me is that the two traditions use such different terms. Christian “Prayer of Union” and Yoga “Kaivalya” (isolation) as in Yoga Sutra 4.26 Then the mind is inclined towards the highest discrimination, and gravitates towards absolute liberation (more literal “isolation”) between seer and seen.
(tada viveka nimnam kaivalya pragbharam chittam) . en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaivalya

I personally think they are very different interpretations of the same experience.
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Me too!

Imagine if people of different religious traditions begin to see that they are in fact all talking about the same Reality, and that having the truth doesn’t mean that everyone else is worshiping falsehood.

I long for that day!
 
Michael_Mayo said:
What is interesting to me is that the two traditions use such different terms. Christian “Prayer of Union” and Yoga “Kaivalya” (isolation) as in Yoga Sutra 4.26 Then the mind is inclined towards the highest discrimination, and gravitates towards absolute liberation (more literal “isolation”) between seer and seen.
(tada viveka nimnam kaivalya pragbharam chittam) . en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaivalya

I personally think they are very different interpretations of the same experience.
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Well, yoga philosophy as found in the Yoga Sutras is quite different from Vedanta philosophy. In Yoga philosophy, “purusha” is understood as a substance distinct from “prakriti.” (Roughly equivalent to spirit and matter, though I understand the equivalence isn’t exact.) There isn’t a belief in a single, unified divine reality as in Vedanta. Hence, the goal is indeed to liberate purusha from prakriti by learning to distinguish them.

In Vedanta, on the other hand, the goal is to seek union with Brahman, who is so to speak the ultimate Purusha. Prakriti is seen as “maya”–not ultimately real.

Vedanta Hinduism uses hatha yoga techniques (and indeed has assimilated Patanjali’s yoga sutras and the terminology of yoga philosophy) to get to a quite different goal.

Now maybe, in some paradoxical way, these are all the same thing, as you suggest. But I don’t know how you or I would know that. To return to the blind men and the elephant parable that is so popular in this context, to know that the blind men are all touching the elephant you would have to have eyes yourself. If we are all blind, we can’t know for sure that we are all touching the same elephant, except by comparison based on what we have ourselves actually perceived. It may be that what seems very different to me is actually the same. It may also be that what seems the same to me is very different. Suppose, for instance, that someone else really has a tree trunk while I have an elephant’s leg? Since I think the elephant’s leg is a tree trunk, I wouldn’t know the difference, would I?

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
Well, yoga philosophy as found in the Yoga Sutras is quite different from Vedanta philosophy.

Edwin
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Yes, Patanjali seemed all into Samkhya philosophy except for the Isvara being a special Purusa. I doubt that even the more serious yoga practitioners who rely on Patanjali realize he works with that sever dualism of Purusha/Prakriti.
 
OMMHO (Om my honest opinion), these last few posts are avoiding the issue - too much "om"ming and "ahh"ing!
 
Contarini said:
What issue are we avoiding? Restate it cogently and logically.

Edwin
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Contarini, curiosity can kill the cat, as can the dragon kill the human (;)), when placing ourselves into spiritual “unknowns” !

From your previous posts with Michael, one thing became apparent - all the various strands of Yoga and the philosophies and theories behind them - there seems to be a lot to it. So it could be argued that if we are to allow for the fact that some truth might be in amongst some other belief system and the practices which draw people in, then all is good, but, IMO, this doesn’t follow reason, for this very reason - not ALL is good. Only ALL GOOD is GOOD! Now another argument might be: why hold back - if we have faith we can do anything! This is false. As we have virtue and we have sin. So yes, we can do all things, but some are not advisable. To say I would regularly visit pubs and clubs or lie with hareems of women and trust in faith that I would not sin eventually is mockery and utter stupidity (an extreme example to prove a point). So there are wise actions and foolish ones. Actions from which good fruit grows and actions from which decay and death destroy much good that has been done. So there may be a strand of Yoga, a philosophy within the whole, which holds some truth about life in there somewhere, yet all strands lead back to a root, so it follows that if the root is sound, then surely ALL the strands will be sound too, which is not reported to be the case with Yoga. Another argument, is that this avatar can be attributed to meaning this, or this thing in this philosophy can really be a metaphor for this, but in Christian understanding, this would be called progressive. Sure, we have metaphors, but they are more than metaphors, because underneath those are real and actual realities. The life of He who IS, His followers, their testaments, the Church and all she does for the greater good - the GOOD root and the fruit. These are not just metaphors, they are real and actual. They are not spiritual “unknowns”. The Word is alive, up close and personal, inviting us to be more up close and personal every day, in relationship, in union. The GOOD root is not an impersonal metaphor, the GOOD root has an actual and specific name, and His follows do too. Names are important as they distinguish between what is good and real and actual to what is false, and airy, and leading to more guessing. I love stories from other cultures and belief systems, but for me they are just representative of momentary whimsy, and for those serious about love, also somewhat flighty, following what we know is the fruit of the GOOD root. Sure, a certain kind of commitment to a kind of searching for love might be found in other belief systems, but there are extra depths of known and recognised love to be discovered when we pay attention to actual names and get specific. This is what I was trying to say before and one other thing too: it is also suggested that some forms of Yoga derive from, or is used for sexual practices, and there I was thinking that chastity was a huge part of our commitment -whether or not we fail at this, we at least try to be branches, strands, of the GOOD ROOT, whom we know is pure and GOOD, and don’t need to be uncertain and unknowing.
 
How about defining “yoga” for us and we will see how many of us practice by your definition.
 
I’d prefer it if posters were to respect my thread by ceasing to avoid the context when responding to any of my posts. So, again:

Contarini, curiosity can kill the cat, as can the dragon kill the human (;)), when placing ourselves into spiritual “unknowns” !

From your previous posts with Michael, one thing became apparent - all the various strands of Yoga and the philosophies and theories behind them - there seems to be a lot to it. So it could be argued that if we are to allow for the fact that some truth might be in amongst some other belief system and the practices which draw people in, then all is good, but, IMO, this doesn’t follow reason, for this very reason - not ALL is good. Only ALL GOOD is GOOD! Now another argument might be: why hold back - if we have faith we can do anything! This is false. As we have virtue and we have sin. So yes, we can do all things, but some are not advisable. To say I would regularly visit pubs and clubs or lie with hareems of women and trust in faith that I would not sin eventually is mockery and utter stupidity (an extreme example to prove a point). So there are wise actions and foolish ones. Actions from which good fruit grows and actions from which decay and death destroy much good that has been done. So there may be a strand of Yoga, a philosophy within the whole, which holds some truth about life in there somewhere, yet all strands lead back to a root, so it follows that if the root is sound, then surely ALL the strands will be sound too, which is not reported to be the case with Yoga. Another argument, is that this avatar can be attributed to meaning this, or this thing in this philosophy can really be a metaphor for this, but in Christian understanding, this would be called progressive. Sure, we have metaphors, but they are more than metaphors, because underneath those are real and actual realities. The life of He who IS, His followers, their testaments, the Church and all she does for the greater good - the GOOD root and the fruit. These are not just metaphors, they are real and actual. They are not spiritual “unknowns”. The Word is alive, up close and personal, inviting us to be more up close and personal every day, in relationship, in union. The GOOD root is not an impersonal metaphor, the GOOD root has an actual and specific name, and His follows do too. Names are important as they distinguish between what is good and real and actual to what is false, and airy, and leading to more guessing. I love stories from other cultures and belief systems, but for me they are just representative of momentary whimsy, and for those serious about love, also somewhat flighty, following what we know is the fruit of the GOOD root. Sure, a certain kind of commitment to a kind of searching for love might be found in other belief systems, but there are extra depths of known and recognised love to be discovered when we pay attention to actual names and get specific. This is what I was trying to say before and one other thing too: it is also suggested that some forms of Yoga derive from, or is used for sexual practices, and there I was thinking that chastity was a huge part of our commitment -whether or not we fail at this, we at least try to be branches, strands, of the GOOD ROOT, whom we know is pure and GOOD, and don’t need to be uncertain and unknowing.

Thanks.
 
Is yoga not a form of complete self-focus, focusing on ourselves we have too much of today. I say yoga is, at least, problematic for Christians. We should abandon ourselves, and focus on God and his Divine Will. No eastern spirituality-even wrapped in the disguise of exercise- for Christians. Same with “Centering Prayer.”
 
ocdnms said:
Is yoga not a form of complete self-focus, focusing on ourselves we have too much of today. I say yoga is, at least, problematic for Christians. We should abandon ourselves, and focus on God and his Divine Will. No eastern spirituality-even wrapped in the disguise of exercise- for Christians. Same with “Centering Prayer.”
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I think that Christian prayer, known for its simplicity whereby all people can participate, is communication; Yoga, on the other hand, for reasons you’ve stated succinctly, and from what I’ve read, seems to be akin to a kind of drug.
 
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