YOGA...ooer!

[Michael_Mayo]

It is not that simple. If one is looking up Yoga because one is into Yoga then one is going to look up all the poses. Exposure to these poses may inspire the use of them, and just because "…Danish gymnastics showed, spirituality need not have anything to do with it.", how do we know to a safe degree that they absolutely know for certain that it is completely separated from all spirituality?

Because spirituality requires intentions.

 

[friardchips]

Because spirituality requires intentions.

True. It does. And I think a high percentage in the Church would agree that intention has a lot to do with many things.

I believe that intention is not enough. Intention is a kind of common-good excuse.

Because…Our Lord said that it is our external words and actions, the things that come out of us (this more than just intention), that serve to reflect what is in our hearts. Maybe this is what St. Paul meant about being ready for solid food!

Maybe if we have good intentions then this will be obvious, but actually, this does not always follow. There is a saying I do not like, but I think it is relevant, and so I will use it: 'The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.’ I AM NOT saying this is the case with Yoga as an absolute, but I am using that well-known saying to show that intentions need to be educated for the individual to do more than serve oneself and that this is already fairly common knowledge…

i.e:- DISCERNMENT!

Better than that saying - as I said, I don’t like that saying, and I don’t whole-heartedly agree with it, for the most part - is to deepen and widen it, by saying: ‘The road to Hell is paved by not following up on our best intentions.’

This then puts the onus back on to making sure our intentions, before acting upon them, are properly considered.

I would call this: praying and allowing oneself to be guided. Rather than being led by one’s own deeply embedded issues.

This saying is then not about control, or “focus”, it is about letting go.

One other thing. Even if you disagree and believe that intentions are everything then your argument still doesn’t stand as solid. Because, if intentions are everything ( and even if they are not) then one could do with realisng that sitting there in prayer, simply and quietly, is enough, without need for major external effort. If it is in the intention then we are already on our Way.

If it is all about intention or more than that then intention as an argument is not enough to support extreme action for effective (don’t particularl like that word, but still…) praying.

There is an argument you could use against this last assertion but I am not going to say it for you!

 

[Michael_Mayo]

It is not a judgement. Seriously, you peeps need to look up ‘judgement’ in the dictionary.

Interpretation then. You interpet my words in the worst possible light. How anyone can take issue with “focus” is beyond me. “Self-hypgnosis” ? Really? “Hyperventilation”? These are your ideas, not mine.

Maybe you find this is good for you. Okay, whatever works for you. But this is not true for prayer generally. To force distractions away in an overly exaggerated display is giving power to the distractions. What is wrong with simply having some trust in the prayer and asking the Holy Spirit to help you in the midst of distraction adn allow Him to provide guidance.

Again, why “force away”? All that I am talking about is a natural process, a gift from God. Do you force away distractions when you go to sleep? No. It is a natural process. Same here only alertness is maintained. and focused on the presence of God.

I actually respect your hard work in prayer and think it is admirable. I can’t help feeling though, and this is not an insult but a compliment, that this much physical effort is not probably needed.

I never said it was needed. People lift weights and jog and some find spiritual values in these activities. Good for them. That does not mean they are “needed”. don’t put words in my mouth.

But I think giving too much power to the physical aspect over and above putting one’s hands together is not giving yourself - you may be surprised that I am using the word “self” at all - enough credit.

No one is “giving too much power to the physical aspect”. Simply using it to its own advantage.
I have been saying that the physical can be used in prayer, not required for prayer.

Maybe it was faith in prayer which opened yourself up to a deeper conversion experience with your Creator. If that was me, hearing that would make me feel very free. I would feel unrestrained. Unchained. And know that I could pray without build up, at any time. You know, sometimes praying with distractions around you can be a good way of showing oneself that distraction or no distraction, you are not alone.

We all can pray without build up at any time. No one argues otherwise. And most of our prayer is indeed in the midst of distractions. So I do not see why you bring this up. But in addition, I also feel unchained to use my body as prayer without fear that I am somehow unintentionally poking into some unknown supernatural danger. That is just superstitious.

 

[friardchips]

Interpretation then. You interpet my words in the worst possible light. How anyone can take issue with “focus” is beyond me. “Self-hypgnosis” ? Really? “Hyperventilation”? These are your ideas, not mine.

Not mine. And they are not at you. Please look up the word ‘objectivity’ as well as ‘judgemental’!

Again, why “force away”? All that I am talking about is a natural process, a gift from God. Do you force away distractions when you go to sleep? No. It is a natural process. Same here only alertness is maintained. and focused on the presence of God.

Sure. I understand. But you’ve already said that many do Yoga to get rid of distrations, so by that statement, you are saying with your words that Yoga is therefore used to get rid of distractions. Sleeping is not the same as doing Yoga as sleep is natural and Yoga is man-made. The positions are possible physical bodily positions but not something natural like sleep. Yoga is man-made.

We are advised not to put our souls into the hands of men.

I never said it was needed. People lift weights and jog and some find spiritual values in these activities. Good for them. That does not mean they are “needed”. don’t put words in my mouth.

Okay. But then if you suggest that people are doing Yoga in order to be able to pray due to distractions then you are indirectly implying that in some way the practioner is ‘needing’ to do Yoga to pray.

No one is “giving too much power to the physical aspect”. Simply using it to its own advantage. I have been saying that the physical can be used in prayer, not required for prayer.

Hmm. Not sure you are not going back on what you’ve said before, but okay. Then if this is the case then why do Christian-Yoga at all?

We all can pray without build up at any time. No one argues otherwise. And most of our prayer is indeed in the midst of distractions. So I do not see why you bring this up. But in addition, I also feel unchained to use my body as prayer without fear that I am somehow unintentionally poking into some unknown supernatural danger. That is just superstitious.

No, it is not superstitious, we are advised to test the spirits, this does not mean testing the Holy Spirit. In fact, if you are going down this route of stronger language, then I feel the room to be able to suggest that it could be considered superstitious to believe that Yoga somehow unites the soul with the Holy Spirit. …Simply because, this is not being explicit enough about one’s own belief.

Thanks for the post.

 

[cjforJesus]

Interpretation then. You interpet my words in the worst possible light. How anyone can take issue with “focus” is beyond me. “Self-hypgnosis” ? Really? “Hyperventilation”? These are your ideas, not mine.

Again, why “force away”? All that I am talking about is a natural process, a gift from God. Do you force away distractions when you go to sleep? No. It is a natural process. Same here only alertness is maintained. and focused on the presence of God.

I never said it was needed. People lift weights and jog and some find spiritual values in these activities. Good for them. That does not mean they are “needed”. don’t put words in my mouth.

No one is “giving too much power to the physical aspect”. Simply using it to its own advantage.
I have been saying that the physical can be used in prayer, not required for prayer.

We all can pray without build up at any time. No one argues otherwise. And most of our prayer is indeed in the midst of distractions. So I do not see why you bring this up. But in addition, I also feel unchained to use my body as prayer without fear that I am somehow unintentionally poking into some unknown supernatural danger. That is just superstitious.

LOL hyp-gnosis! Was that a freudian slip?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Not mine. And they are not at you. Please look up the word ‘objectivity’ as well as ‘judgemental’!

I find eyerolls offensive and dismissive. Please don’t use them with me.

If the words are not mine nor yours how did they get into the discussion?

Sure. I understand. But you’ve already said that many do Yoga to get rid of distrations, so by that statement, you are saying with your words that Yoga is therefore used to get rid of distractions. Sleeping is not the same as doing Yoga as sleep is natural and Yoga is man-made. The positions are possible physical bodily positions but not something natural like sleep. Yoga is man-made.

We are advised not to put our souls into the hands of men.

Yoga CAN help with distractions as well as with any number of other problems. Why such a problem with “man-made”? Look around. You employ quite a few man made things.

Putting our souls into the hands of men? What men?
How is doing a few stretches “putting our souls in the hands of men”?

Okay. But then if you suggest that people are doing Yoga in order to be able to pray due to distractions then you are indirectly implying that in some way the practioner is ‘needing’ to do Yoga to pray.

Not at all. I am saying that I do yoga to assist in prayer because it helps me to relax. How can you have a problem with that? No one “needs” to do yoga. I have said that before.

Hmm. Not sure you are not going back on what you’ve said before, but okay. Then if this is the case then why do Christian-Yoga at all?

Because is reduces stress. That is a fact.

No, it is not superstitious, we are advised to test the spirits, this does not mean testing the Holy Spirit. In fact, if you are going down this route of stronger language, then I feel the room to be able to suggest that it could be considered superstitious to believe that Yoga somehow unites the soul with the Holy Spirit. …Simply because, this is not being explicit enough about one’s own belief.

Thanks for the post.

I never said yoga unites the soul with the Holy Spirit, though it might assist someone to be more sensitive to the Holy Spirit dwelling within.

You seem to misread and misinterpret and then misstate my words a lot.
Stick to my words as written please.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

LOL hyp-gnosis! Was that a freudian slip?

Maybe, but also terrible spelling.

 

[friardchips]

I find eyerolls offensive and dismissive. Please don’t use them with me.

Okay. I will have to ask Catholic Forum to re-examine their eye-roll emoticon because it is definitely 100% displaying sarcasm, or is that just the way you interpret it? But sure, I will not use that with you. I have to say, I personally find emoticons nice ways of defusing or avoiding bad temper as they are generally considered light-hearted. But I will remeber that eye-roll emoticon is not in your book of faves.

If the words are not mine nor yours how did they get into the discussion?

I am referring also to past posts.

Yoga CAN help with distractions as well as with any number of other problems. Why such a problem with “man-made”? Look around. You employ quite a few man made things.

Well, the point obviously being made, is that to dice with one’s spirituality is not discerning or testing the spirits. On the other hand, Christian teaching, is founded on, well, who do you think?

Putting our souls into the hands of men? What men?

Those who devised Yoga. And the origins behind it. The history of Yoga dates back to men who devised it as a religious system of reachign for divine qualities.

How is doing a few stretches “putting our souls in the hands of men”?

‘Teachers’. Gurus. Yogis. (Possiblly) apostates.

Not at all. I am saying that I do yoga to assist in prayer because it helps me to relax. How can you have a problem with that? No one “needs” to do yoga. I have said that before.

You have been implicit not explicit throughout (at least in some areas).

Because is reduces stress. That is a fact.

So do other forms of exercise. And things outside of what constitutes as exercise. This doesn’t excuse the Christian using Yoga without properly dsicenring the spirits.

I never said yoga unites the soul with the Holy Spirit, though it might assist someone to be more sensitive to the Holy Spirit dwelling within.

This is open to debate. But then the POpe would have said that by elaborating ont he subject which he did not. I am not suggesting this might not have happened for you but I don’t think it is the norm.

You seem to misread and misinterpret and then misstate my words a lot.
Stick to my words as written please.

Wow, this sounds funny coming form someone other than myself.

If it seems this way, this is not intended, it is just you seem to be a bit wishy washy over it, as if you are not sure about how concrete you are on the subject; whereas, I am. This for me outlines the unknown quantities of Yoga and what people are maybe dabbling with.

You are saying now, anyway, that you don’t need to do Yoga, right? But that sometimes you do as it helps you to relax for forthcoming prayer, right? And sometimes just to reduce stress during exercise and so nothing to do with prayer, correct?

• just so I know where we are now?! Maybe I was getting you confused with another poster. :doh2:

 

[friardchips]

Originally Posted by cjforJesus
LOL hyp-gnosis! Was that a freudian slip?

Maybe, but also terrible spelling.

Not so fast. please. We all know that typos are no big deal. Who cares about the odd typo, I make them all the time…

However, yes, that is also a freudian slip. A significant one, IMO!

‘hyp-gnosis’ could be read as ‘hip knowledge’ translated as ‘hip gnosticism’.

I am balled over and left spinning by that uncanny occurrence: :ballspin:

 

[friardchips]

:angel1:

 

[Michael_Mayo]

You are saying now, anyway, that you don’t need to do Yoga, right? But that sometimes you do as it helps you to relax for forthcoming prayer, right? And sometimes just to reduce stress during exercise and so nothing to do with prayer, correct?

Right. I don’t need to do yoga. I do very little at this time. Just some leg stretches. It is good for the hamstrings and the lower back. I would like time to do more though.

It helps me to relax. It eases pain. It gives me energy. It helps me feel better in general whether I am getting ready to pray or do anything else. It improves the quality of my life. How can that be wrong?

 

[friardchips]

Right. I don’t need to do yoga. I do very little at this time. Just some leg stretches. It is good for the hamstrings and the lower back. I would like time to do more though.

It helps me to relax. It eases pain. It gives me energy. It helps me feel better in general whether I am getting ready to pray or do anything else. It improves the quality of my life. How can that be wrong?

Thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to explain.

I’m not saying it’s wrong angel1 To be honest, I don’t know whether you do Yoga in the morning and pray in the afternoon, or if you do Yoga and prayer while still in Yoga position…so hard to assess really. And not going to attempt to assess you personally because I don’t have the right and I would not be comfortabel doing that.

So, Prefer to want to keep it general again:

It would be handy to know if people who do Yoga then pray, are still praying in a Yoga position, and if so, what positions?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to explain.

I’m not saying it’s wrong angel1 To be honest, I don’t know whether you do Yoga in the morning and pray in the afternoon, or if you do Yoga and prayer while still in Yoga position…so hard to assess really. And not going to attempt to assess you personally because I don’t have the right and I would not be comfortabel doing that.

So, Prefer to want to keep it general again:

It would be handy to know if people who do Yoga then pray, are still praying in a Yoga position, and if so, what positions?

What happened to pray always, at all times and in any position?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Ephesians 6:18 With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,

I Thessalonians 5:16Rejoice always; 17pray without ceasing; 18in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.

Even yoga I pray and give thanks.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Why such fear about the dangers of yoga when very little concern is expressed a bout a far greater spiritual danger? A far more pernicious danger is ignored even though Jesus and the early Church warned about it, I am talking about materialism, worshiped in this country as capitalism. What did Jesus say to do if you want to be perfect? What did the early Church do with their private property?

“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Matthew 19:24)

Yes, that is another discussion for another thread. Yet it makes this fear of yoga seem ridiculous.

 

[faithsmind]

Again, I think the context of these positions is very important. When done in context of the yoga philosophy, they can be as harmful as materialism.

Practicing certain positions in and of themselves, such as the plank, are spiritually nuetral but are very beneficial, physically. Although, on a side note, I’ve read that some postures found in yoga are unhealthy for the body.

 

[agnes_therese]

It would be handy to know if people who do Yoga then pray, are still praying in a Yoga position, and if so, what positions?

Why would that be “handy?” Why would it matter? Why does it only matter for praying after yoga (you did specify “people who do yoga and then pray”), not not matter for praying *during * yoga?

 

[friardchips]

What happened to pray always, at all times and in any position?

Don’t know where you got that from.

Scripture says that there is a time and place for all things.

St. Paul said to test the spirits.

Saints taught about discerning the spirits.

Also, what I put up here (originally from the mouths of Religious): okay to pray while working but possibly disrespectful to be working while praying. Sure, one’s whole day can be a prayer, but often people set time aside for some quiet in the morning so that the day is offered up then, and this means we don’t have pray while responding to the various calls of nature, which could be seen as disrespectful.

 

[friardchips]

Ephesians 6:18 With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,

I Thessalonians 5:16Rejoice always; 17pray without ceasing; 18in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.

Even yoga I pray and give thanks.

So, by that reasoning then, I’ll test the spirit, by (possibly) entering into idol worship, through New Age practices - which is what Yoga comes under - thanks to a lack of thorough discernment, and then just put it all down to “pray without ceasing”. If one was “praying without ceasing” then I can assure you that one would not enter head-first into spritual unknowns. Because, one would see the dangers coming, through praying without ceasing.

So again, you have left me uncertain as to what you are actually arguing. First you say you are just doing it for exercise, then you say you are doing it to pray without really saying the time between doing Yoga and prayer, which does make a difference, thus leaving things very vague indeed.

 

[friardchips]

Why such fear about the dangers of yoga when very little concern is expressed a bout a far greater spiritual danger? A far more pernicious danger is ignored even though Jesus and the early Church warned about it, I am talking about materialism, worshiped in this country as capitalism. What did Jesus say to do if you want to be perfect? What did the early Church do with their private property?

Materialism is part and parcel of living in a physical world in which man needs money to get by. It is a danger for those who seek wealth but this is not a phenominen. In the Bible, spiritual unknowns were warned about no less than material wealth. You are right that the NT does mention the entrapments of wealth many times.

“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Matthew 19:24)

It is a valid point because I think this can stop vocations and send people down bad pathways.

Yes, that is another discussion for another thread. Yet it makes this fear of yoga seem ridiculous.

In your mind, apparently so. I see materialism as far more of a natural temptation for mankind than Yoga. Because it is so natural it can easily take over one’s life as main priority. But money is not evil in itself, it is what one does with money, that is key. And if we are prepared to be sparing with it and even give it all up then it has no control over us. Yoga is maybe understandable for people growing up in countries in which their belief-system uses this for worship, but not understandable for Christians, at least when it is being used for spiritual reasons. And if for exercise ‘only’, then why do Yoga, if there is no spiritual aspect? Why not do other exercise instead? There is obviously a reason why people are choosing Yoga specifically when there are other forms of exercise that achieve the same results - some kind of unknown spiritual pull.