You can't be both a Catholic and a Feminist

[kev7]

Catholic2003:

The real Catholic Church is a big tent with lots of room for faithful Catholics to disagree on many issues, including various aspects of feminism.

ok which one of these do you think that faithfull catholics disagree on?

1. Premarital Sex
2. Contraception
3. Papal Infallibility
4. Holy Orders
5. Sanctity of Life

and just so I understand your perspective which of the above do you dissagree with?

 

[La_Chiara]

kev7:

another hateful and spiteful post.

Aw, c’mon, kev. You are WAY too serious! Hateful and spiteful??? I think not. Can’t you take some teasing? You wouldn’t last two seconds in my big Italian Catholic family! (Ooops, am I allowed to be Catholic and also Italian? Or is that not permitted either ?)

 

[Catholic2003]

kev7:

and just so I understand your perspective which of the above do you dissagree with?

The one we’ve been discussing here is the possibility of the future ordination of women to the permanent diaconate.

Faithful Catholics can take either side of this issue.

 

[ElizabethAnne]

kev7:

That is funny that you say that. Last weeks Gospel was about speaking up about your faith and letting the fire burn inside your heart. That is all that I have done here. I have spoke out about something that I feel is wrong. I don’t care if I am called names or not. I don’t care.

I have not seen anyone here who called you names and made fun of you. A few posters made some comments in jest, but they are a far cry from hatred.

On one hand you act as though people on this forum are persecuting you. On the other you thank a poster who agrees with you and say, “I am glad that there are people of faith on this board who are not afraid to stand up to something that they feel is wrong.”

You imply that those who disagree with you on this particular topic, despite declaring their orthodoxy, are not “people of faith.” It seems that you are the one committing slander. You also seem to be on a mission to convert us all to your way of thinking. I am not convinced by your argument, and since you have not cited any official Church documents to support your view, I do not see anything morally wrong with being both a Catholic and a feminist.

As for my comment that those who believe in political, social and economic equality for women, I stand by the fact that those people are feminists. You said I would then have to consider those who believed in the 10 commandments to be Jews. All Jews believe in the 10 commandments, but not all people who believe in the 10 commandments are Jewish. But by definition, all those who believe women are politically, socially and economically equal to men are feminists.

 

[ElizabethAnne]

Michael Welter:

First of all, none of us get what we deserve. We are a sinful people, and we deserve to burn in hell for eternity. Thanks be to God, that we don’t get what we deserve.

Second, men and women are not the same. If that’s what you mean, then I agree. However, from a political, social, and economic point of view, they are equal. Men and women deserve to be treated with equal dignity. That’s political equality. Men are not above or below women socially; they are equal. And they both should be paid the same for equal work; that’s economic equality. And that is in line with Catholic teaching.

Right on! You said it better than I could have.

And now, unfortunately, I will have to leave the lively discussion on this thread until after my wedding this weekend and honeymoon next week.

God bless you all.

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

La Chiara:

…Ooops, am I allowed to be Catholic and also Italian? Or is that not permitted either…

Given the absolutist position taken in this thread, I think this question deserves a serious answer. Can we have no identities other than as Catholics? According to the OP, we should not have any philosophical identities, such as Feminist or Republican. How far does this go?

I consider myself to be Pro-Life, based on strong convictions that I have, in agreement with the Church, on the value and dignity of human life. Other posters here have stated that they consider themselves to be feminists based on strong convictions they have, in agreement with the Church, on the value and dignity of women.

But the OP objects to their identifying themselves as Feminists, saying they should identify as Catholic only. Does this mean that I should not identify myself as Pro-Life?

 

[La_Chiara]

ElizabethAnne:

Right on! You said it better than I could have.

And now, unfortunately, I will have to leave the lively discussion on this thread until after my wedding this weekend and honeymoon next week.

God bless you all.

Best wishes Elizabeth Anne for a blessed wedding and a blissful honeymoon!

Your husband is a lucky fellow to have such an intelligent and articulate wife. (And he can handle a feminist to boot. What a guy. What a couple!)

 

[ncjohn]

Joseph Bilodeau:

Given the absolutist position taken in this thread, I think this question deserves a serious answer. Can we have no identities other than as Catholics? According to the OP, we should not have any philosophical identities, such as Feminist or Republican. How far does this go?

I consider myself to be Pro-Life, based on strong convictions that I have, in agreement with the Church, on the value and dignity of human life. Other posters here have stated that they consider themselves to be feminists based on strong convictions they have, in agreement with the Church, on the value and dignity of women.

But the OP objects to their identifying themselves as Feminists, saying they should identify as Catholic only. Does this mean that I should not identify myself as Pro-Life?

And quite frankly, where does that leave the various religious orders and secular orders? Can one be a secular Franciscan and still be Catholic, or only a Dominican? Or maybe the other way around or maybe neither?

Yes, we can have other identities and still be Catholic. Feminism is not in and of itself in conflict with Catholic teaching, although some feminists believe things that are not Catholic. Being a Republican or Democrat is not in and of itself in conflict with Catholic teaching, although individuals of either party may have beliefs that are not Catholic.

We all have multiple identifications: gender, race, ethnicity, occupation; ad infinitum. As long as you’re not believing non-Catholic things, you are not in conflict.

Peace,

 

[buffalo]

newbiefound:

I loved this post! Excellent way of putting it. I thought this post sums kev’s argument up best. A great way for people to lead others to Catholicism and to keep Catholic’s eyes on the church is to do good things in the Catholic name. If there was an organization that officially held all the same views as the Catholic church except that Christ was the Savior but you’re still allowed to think he is and still be in the organization, would you join it? Would you lead others to this organization? Why not try to get the Church active in this instead of using an organization that doesn’t officially even believe in Christ? It’s not the label that’s wrong. its the fact that its a belief system that people live by that doesn’t necessarily involve Christianity AT ALL.

Something similar:

If you fill a glass of drinkable water to the top and then add one drop of septic water, will you still drink it?

 

[st_julie]

I “came of age” when BURN THE BRA was resounding accross the nation. Equality was the catchword and as a woman I agreed wholeheartedly with this message.
However… I had absorbed the ideology of a false equality. After my marriage collapsed it took me years of prayer and study to see this. I finally realized that the biggest problem that I had had was that I wanted equality of headship in the marriage.

st julie

 

[kev7]

Catholic2003:

The one we’ve been discussing here is the possibility of the future ordination of women to the permanent diaconate.

Faithful Catholics can take either side of this issue.

if you don’t accept all teachings of the catholic church then you are not a faithfull catholic. sorry… but you can’t just pick an chose what you want to listen to.

In this case, your feminist ideology is more important then the teachings of the catholic church.

 

[ncjohn]

kev7:

if you don’t accept all teachings of the catholic church then you are not a faithfull catholic. sorry… but you can’t just pick an chose what you want to listen to.

In this case, your feminist ideology is more important then the teachings of the catholic church.

Since this question is a current and ongoing issue in the Church, which has not been settled, I’m not sure what you might be basing this opinion on, much less the very uncharitable closing statement.

It is very sad that you seem to feel that you can lump people together based on extraneous affiliations, judge them, and disqualify them as “faithful Catholics.” By implication that means that you consider yourself a “better” Catholic than they are.

Would you also consider yourself a “better Catholic” than I am? If so, what would be the objective ratiing system you would use to arrive at this conclusion?

 

[buffalo]

ncjohn:

Since this question is a current and ongoing issue in the Church, which has not been settled, I’m not sure what you might be basing this opinion on, much less the very uncharitable closing statement.

It is very sad that you seem to feel that you can lump people together based on extraneous affiliations, judge them, and disqualify them as “faithful Catholics.” By implication that means that you consider yourself a “better” Catholic than they are.

Would you also consider yourself a “better Catholic” than I am? If so, what would be the objective ratiing system you would use to arrive at this conclusion?

Conversion is a lifelong process. Some are at different parts of this journey. Some refuse to even start the journey. Does it mean one is better, NO. But it could mean they are further down the road. Can it mean they practice their faith better? YES.

 

[ncjohn]

buffalo:

Conversion is a lifelong process. Some are at different parts of this journey. Some refuse to even start the journey. Does it mean one is better, NO. But it could mean they are further down the road. Can it mean they practice their faith better? YES.

I understand that fully Buffalo, and see you as one of the ones apparently well down the road.

I just have a problem here with someone setting themselves up as judge and jury about how one’s outside identifications make them a lesser Catholic, and making random judgments about people they do not even know beyond some internet postings.

 

[buffalo]

ncjohn:

I understand that fully Buffalo, and see you as one of the ones apparently well down the road.

I just have a problem here with someone setting themselves up as judge and jury about how one’s outside identifications make them a lesser Catholic, and making random judgments about people they do not even know beyond some internet postings.

I am not sure how to respond. I am simply trying to help others understand Catholic teaching.

It is true. These forums are impersonal and if we were talking over a beer I might not discuss this with you.

However, these forums serve a valid educational purpose.

 

[Catholic2003]

kev7:

In this case, your feminist ideology is more important then the teachings of the catholic church.

To respond in kind, your anti-feminist ideology is more important to you than the teachings of the Catholic Church. Waaaay more important, apparently.

And I feel compelled to add that your antics here on this thread have only helped to convince me that any label that serves to distinguish my Catholicism from your views is a good label to have.

ncjohn:

Since this question is a current and ongoing issue in the Church, which has not been settled, I’m not sure what you might be basing this opinion on, much less the very uncharitable closing statement.

Thanks for the support, and thanks for taking the high road in responding to kev7. Perhaps one day I will be far enough along in my journey that I would be able to emulate your restraint.

 

[ncjohn]

buffalo:

I am not sure how to respond. I am simply trying to help others understand Catholic teaching.

It is true. These forums are impersonal and if we were talking over a beer I might not discuss this with you.

However, these forums serve a valid educational purpose.

I agree they serve a very educational purpose, and if we ever meet maybe we can talk about some of them over a beer!

I just hate to see the divisiveness and some of the nasty tone that keeps cropping up. Civility goes a long way in getting a point across and I personally try to always remember that I am a worthless sinner even as I’m trying to express my view, hoping that the person I’m addressing will help me carry my cross as I’m trying to help him carry his. These crosses are just way too big for any of us to carry alone.

Peace,

 

[buffalo]

ncjohn:

I agree they serve a very educational purpose, and if we ever meet maybe we can talk about some of them over a beer!

I just hate to see the divisiveness and some of the nasty tone that keeps cropping up. Civility goes a long way in getting a point across and I personally try to always remember that I am a worthless sinner even as I’m trying to express my view, hoping that the person I’m addressing will help me carry my cross as I’m trying to help him carry his. These crosses are just way too big for any of us to carry alone.

Peace,

Ditto.

 

[LSK]

vluvski:

I’m with John. the notion of “True Feminism” is quite sound; it is the feminists who consider men “the enemy” or the ones who think equality requires the abandonment of femininity for masculinity that are at odds with the faith.

But you can use the same type of argument in terms of ‘traditional men’ who consider women ‘the enemy’.

A true Catholic Christian knows that men and women are equal in importance and have different roles, neither of which is less than the other.

I am Catholic and a Feminist. I am an obedient daughter of the Holy Mother Church, and I expect a good Catholic man to be an obedient son of the Holy Mother Church.

Ok, we’ve solved this problem…let’s go for cake…John, you serve…

 

[LSK]

buffalo:

Ditto.

double ditto.

cake anyone?