You can't be both a Catholic and a Feminist

[kev7]

tcay584:

Correct…affection is a human trait. Women as well as men can display it if they choose. I must wonder what “traits” you speak of when you describe (or actually, you don’t) feminist traits?

I don’t describe any traits… traits are not part of feminism. We all have traits as per Gods plan.

There are many women (and men) outside the Church who are desperately trying to find something of meaning to them. They (men and women) can’t look to the Church, because then the light of God would shine on their sins…and who in this day and age says that that’s ok? No, they hide, they lurk, they disparage, they denigrate. All in pathetic hope that they’ll escape God’s judgement.

We must approach them AS catholics. We must be examples to them AS catholics. not as feminists.

And you are now lumping all women with a shred of self worth (God given) together. Why despise women summarily? Way to go Dude!!! Score one for dis-unity in the Church! Which side are you on, man?

not sure when I did this… but if it sounded like that then please understand that I don’t think that way. I don’t despise women summarily.

 

[kev7]

HelpingHands:

http://www.kircubbin.com/pics/kmcp-ru1.gif
http://www.chantryfineart.co.uk/images/0707.jpg

oh wow… thank you for that wonderfull insite. When you don’'t have an arugment you simply reject your catholic teachings.

That was very very catholic of you.

 

[Catholic2003]

E.E.N.S.:

Faithful to who??

Faithful to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

 

[Catholic2003]

kev7:

Catholics who support the future ordination of women to the diaconate reject the teachings of the holy father.

The Magisterium of the Catholic Church has not yet made a pronouncement on the future possibility of ordaining women to the permanent diaconate. This is precisely the reason that faithful Catholics can hold to either side of this issue.

Anyone who claims that supporting the future ordination of women to the diaconate is contrary to the Magisterium is either mistaken, or worse. And if a label can help to distinguish me from their ilk, then that’s a good enough reason for me to use a label.

kev7:

Calling yourself a feminist catholic simply says, “I don’t accept all church teachings”

As others have already pointed out, this conclusion is logically incorrect.

kev7:

You didn’t answer my question. Why do you need to add the ‘Label’ of feminist to your title as a catholic.

See above.

 

[Bootoo]

I will be 45 years old in a few weeks. Throughout my lifetime in which I could claim to call myself an adult (maybe age 13 on), I have been a conservative Republican, and a feminist. I have been a lifelong Catholic, although I was away from the Church for too long in my young adulthhood. I came back to the Church in my early 30s, and have strengthened my faith in the Church since the time of Pope John Paul II’s death. So here is what I am: I am a conservative Reagan Republican, who volunteered in both of his campaigns. I am a strong Catholic, who respects all the teachings of my Church, and believes in them, even if I don’t understand the reasons. I am also a feminist. I am a conservative Reagan Republican Catholic feminist, and by declaring this, I put myself out there to be hated by everybody. I have no problem with that. But don’t deny my existence. I am here. I am a conservative Reagan Republican Catholic feminist, and I am here.

 

[twiztedseraph]

I don’t think the Church is against women being equal to men, I mean thats actually part of the marriage liturgy, a prayer asking the man to recognize the woman as his equal. I think the problem lies with women who use feminism as an excuse to hate, to demonize men and blame them for their problems. There are some that would start out sincere and be transformed into haters, much as with any other “isms” the KKK, Orangemen etc. People using an ideal as an exucse to hate.

 

[Katie1723]

kev7:

oh wow… thank you for that wonderfull insite. When you don’'t have an arugment you simply reject your catholic teachings.

That was very very catholic of you.

I wasn’t aware that the Catholic church teaches us to argue
~ Kathy ~

 

[ElizabethAnne]

kev7,

As I and several other posters have previously stated, we are Catholic women who are also feminists.

I am an orthodox Catholic who accepts all of the teachings of the Church. I am especially enthralled by the writings of John Paul II who clearly showed that women are equal in dignity to men, yet different from them. He has called us to embrace and celebrate our uniqueness, to value motherhood and enjoy being women. The Church really understands women, both because she recognizes women as equals to men and because she does not try to deny the differences between the sexes.

One poster gave the dictionary’s definition of feminism, in Webster’s it is “the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes.” Some may distort this definition and you may reject it, but it is not a definition pulled out of thin air or some sort of wavering theory affected by moral relativism. In this widely accepted definition of feminism, there is no conflict with Catholicism. So being feminist does not mean being anti-Catholic.

Your next question will probably be (I assume because you’ve asked it before), “Why be feminist when you can just be Catholic?” My answer has been throughout my posts that I am a feminist because I am Catholic. Because I am Catholic, I believe that women are equal in dignity to men. Believing that the sexes are equal makes me a feminist. Not everyone who believes in equality uses the term “feminist,” but by definition that is what they are.

Additionally, I believe that faithful Catholic women who believe in all of the teachings of the Church and also call themselves feminists are helping the Church and her mission. They show what it really means to be pro-woman, which means being pro-life and accepting the differences between the sexes. They identify themselves as Catholics who truly love the Church and of course acknowledge her as the source of Truth (no one has disagreed with you on this point.)

There are many women out there who do not understand that equality for the sexes does not mean killing unborn babies. They honestly believe, in good (if not misguided) faith that there can be no equality without abortion. The pro-choice movement has pushed its agenda well. I was one of those women. I see it as part of my mission, part of God’s plan for me, to show those women who are misguided that a true feminist cares about babies who are killed in the womb and cares about how abortion harms women, both emotionally and physically.

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

kev7:

You all have yet to prove to me that

1. Doing the work of Christ under the name of Feminism isn’t wrong in the eyes of God…

I’ll take this one.

[Jesus speaking]
For whoever is not against us is for us.

 

[newbiefound]

kev7:

…

Feminism is like a big bucket full of fruit. You reach in and you take what you want from it. Unfortunately, some of the fruit in it can kill you.

The Catholic bucket has only the fruit of life in it. The fruit that Jesus put there for us to eat.

Ok now you have a choice.

Which bucket do you eat from?

That is basically my point.

A feminist catholic says, “I eat from both buckets”

A catholic like me says, “I only eat from the catholic bucket”

You do not take from the Catholic bucket and claim that it came from the feminist bucket. More people will then eat from the feminist bucket. You will lead people in the wrong direction.

I loved this post! Excellent way of putting it. I thought this post sums kev’s argument up best. A great way for people to lead others to Catholicism and to keep Catholic’s eyes on the church is to do good things in the Catholic name. If there was an organization that officially held all the same views as the Catholic church except that Christ was the Savior but you’re still allowed to think he is and still be in the organization, would you join it? Would you lead others to this organization? Why not try to get the Church active in this instead of using an organization that doesn’t officially even believe in Christ? It’s not the label that’s wrong. its the fact that its a belief system that people live by that doesn’t necessarily involve Christianity AT ALL.

 

[migurl]

kev7:

I still don’t understand why beliving in the equal dignity of men and women isn’t part of your catholic faith alone. Why is it a feminist concept? Again I ask you, what is your need to be a feminist? What is it about feminism that the catholic church does not have for you? Why must you step outside your faith and include yourself in an organization that is full of moral relativism. .

I agree with you, but I understand why people use the term feminism. I think it is because the word showed up at some point and has come to mean a certain thing in today’s culture-the removal of feminiminty from all women because women are weak and men are evil- it gave rise to lesbianism I think…anyway… I think Catholics use the term because they want women to understand that feminism is a trick, but that Catholic feminism is real, freeing and the rigth way to live and think. It is a term everyone knows with a definition few understand and accept. It’s kind of a marketing ploy, eventually people will only say I am a Catholic, but people who are afraid of Catholisms because it is run by men will be more likely to become curious about a Catholic feminist, in a “How is that possible” kind of way. I don’t say I am a feminists, I just speak my mind and most people get where I am coming from, the “feminist” of the 21st century usually tells me that I am being weighted down by the opinions and expectations of men. Now what I say? “Maybe, but I’m happy.” They usually role their eyes and walk away.

 

[Catholic2003]

newbiefound:

I loved this post! Excellent way of putting it. I thought this post sums kev’s argument up best.

The “one fruit of life” in the Catholic bucket is just another analogy for the straight-jacket of uniformity I commented on earlier, a uniformity that doesn’t describe the true Catholic Church. One can be a faithful Catholic, and a great role model for Catholicism to the world at large, without being a “Mother Teresa” clone. Don’t get me wrong; in my opinion, Mother Teresa was a saint, but not every Catholic has to think and act just like her.

Edited to add: Mother Teresa never claimed that every Catholic had to think and act just like her. The idea that “Mother Teresa didn’t need labels, so nobody does” is from kev7.

 

[mlchance]

Catholic2003:

There are faithful Catholics who support the future ordination of women to the diaconate, and there are faithful Catholics who oppose the future ordination of women to the diaconate.

It’s an infallible teaching of the Catholic Church that women cannot be ordained. Period. End of discussion. One can certainly dissent from that teaching and call oneself faithful, but it seems to evidence a certain amount of equivocating about what faithful means.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Catholic2003]

mlchance:

It’s an infallible teaching of the Catholic Church that women cannot be ordained. Period. End of discussion. One can certainly dissent from that teaching and call oneself faithful, but it seems to evidence a certain amount of equivocating about what faithful means.

You misstate the Church’s teaching on the subject. Please see this thread, and contribute there if you can cite magisterial teaching ruling out the possibility of the future ordination of women to the permanent diaconate.

Certainly, I agree to your point as far as the priestly ordination of women is concerned. Catholics who support women priests are not faithful.

 

[mlchance]

Catholic2003:

You misstate the Church’s teaching on the subject.

No, I don’t. I state the position of Benedict XVI and John Paul II. They, not you or I, have the authority to define doctrine as infallible, and it is an infallible doctrine that women cannot receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

Nothing you or anyone else says changes this fact.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Catholic2003]

mlchance:

No, I don’t. I state the position of Benedict XVI and John Paul II. They, not you or I, have the authority to define doctrine as infallible, and it is an infallible doctrine that women cannot receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

Nothing you or anyone else says changes this fact.

– Mark L. Chance.

Please cite the applicable magisterial document, then.

 

[mlchance]

Catholic2003:

Please cite the applicable magisterial document, then.

Why? So you can continue to argue that Church doesn’t mean what she says she means? Sorry, but I’ve got better things to do. Do you own google search starting with Ordinatio Sacerotalis and work backward through history from there.

%between%– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Catholic2003]

mlchance:

Why? So you can continue to argue that Church doesn’t mean what she says she means? Sorry, but I’ve got better things to do. Do you own google search starting with Ordinatio Sacerotalis and work backward through history from there.

%between%– Mark L. Chance.

I don’t have to do a Google search, because I know what the Church teaches on this issue. I’ve read Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, Inter Insigniores, the various Vatican doctrinal notes, and the International Theological Commission’s study on deaconesses. Additionally, I’ve read the Canon Law Society of America’s recommendation that the U.S. Bishops apply to the Holy See for an indult to permit the ordination of female permanent deacons.

As you may or may not know, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis explicitly refers to the priestly ordination of women. The possibility of the future ordination of women to the permanent diaconate is a valid subject of debate among faithful Catholics.

That’s just the way it is.

 

[mosher]

Catholic2003:

I don’t have to do a Google search, because I know what the Church teaches on this issue. I’ve read Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, Inter Insigniores, the various Vatican doctrinal notes, and the International Theological Commission’s study on deaconesses. Additionally, I’ve read the Canon Law Society of America’s recommendation that the U.S. Bishops apply to the Holy See for an indult to permit the ordination of female permanent deacons.

As you may or may not know, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis explicitly refers to the priestly ordination of women. The possibility of the future ordination of women to the permanent diaconate is a valid subject of debate among faithful Catholics.

That’s just the way it is.

That is true but as the recent Synod posits it is not historically tenable to say that the women refered to as deaconesses in the early church and scripture refer to the state of Orders. But you are correct to say that disccussion is open on the topic however much a red herring it may be.

 

[Katie1723]

Kev7…always talking about fruits…hmmm??? Now what could THAT mean? Like I have said before, when a person raises such a fuss about something, it oftentimes is indicative of the fact that they are dealing with the same issues.
~ Kathy ~