You'll be happy to know that

[mommyof4]

It DOES talk about justification being by faith AND works. I was angry when I read it though. I had never seen that before.

I am far from Catholic but I wanted to let some of you know that I am not an idiot and I know how to search the Scriptures. I also wanted to let you know that even though I am not even close to being a Catholic, some of you have been a positive influence on me.

Looks to me like one of the Sola’s was shot down. I’m hurt and I’m angry.

Please don’t feel badly. Everytime I read the bible, I see something “new” that I didn’t see before, for whatever reason. It’s not like we’re supposed to read the bible one time, memorize it, know it all, understand it all in just one or two readings. That is why we should read the bible daily throughout our lives. The same verses will teach us something different everytime we read it.

I know you’re not an idiot. I’ve seen enough of you’re posts to know that!

I’m glad that some of the Catholics have been a positive influence on you. Many of the protestants on this forum have been a wonderful influence on me, too. Isn’t that what it is all about? Building the Kingdom of God together, even though we have our differences of opinion.

God Bless,
Mommyof4

 

[MariaG]

LOL you liked that eh? I don’t think I’ll ever get on the quote boat. Anyways, thank you. And thank you for your prayer too.

Also, you were spot on about the whole faith issue. When a Protestant talks about faith he/she is absolutely, most definitely not talking about only an intellectual assent. A faith that is nothing more than intellectual assent would mean the person is actually a fool (for not acting on it) and is no better than a person believing they are an ice cream cone that Randy and I are going to have one day when we have finnished debating everything.

Hey, this post quote of yours worked pretty good !

As for the faith, I believe I posted a link before on an article from Jimmy Akin in which he talks about how the definition of faith differs from Protestants and Catholics.

**

from article Justification by faith alone

** by James Akin
Protestant idea of faith = Catholic idea of faith + Catholic idea of hope + Catholic idea of charity

Because of this we have to be careful sometimes because we start talking past each other.

Because of the protestant (most at least) definition of faith, one IS in fact saved by faith alone. But because of the Catholic definition of faith, one most definitely NOT saved by faith alone, or intellectual assent only.

But does anyone know if Luther, since he should have been aware of the Catholic definition of faith, if Luther truly only meant intellectual assent or if he just chose to change the accepted definition of faith?

At the time when he declared “faith alone” the Catholic Church understood that as to mean “intellectual assent alone”. Is this what Luther meant and have Protestants misunderstood this since clearly, most do not mean intellectual assent only when they say “faith alone” today?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[HailMary]

Ponder this please. (regarding miracles)
I don’t see stigmata in Scripture so I have to reject it.

Let go of Sola Scriptura.

It is neither found in the bible, nor in Apostolic Tradition, nor does it make sense when we use our reason.

Read 21 Reasons to Reject Sola Scriptura (give it a shot) and just ask yourself why are you so attached to this doctrine?

Here is the link:
geocities.com/militantis/solascriptura.html

 

[Eireann]

Then what DOES “we see through a glass darkly” imply? Since we (Protestants) are Christians and we were put into the Church by Christ Himself and He KEEPS us then wouldn’t the blame for us not being one be put upon the Catholic Church? After all, the Reformers tried to “reform” the Church. To get it back to the way that it was. This obviously means they had drifted away from what it was at the beginning right (since the Catholic Church goes all the way back to the apostles) ? ** So when will your Church smarten up, get back to the Bible, and consider us full members of Christ’s Church, which Christ has put us into and has promised to KEEP us?**

You have nothing to entice us, same sex marriage, abortion, gay priests, stem cell research, the Catholic Church has remained steadfast in it opposition to those and many more sick laws.

The lovely fruits of denominations, no moral voice.

 

[ricmat]

You have nothing to entice us, same sex marriage, abortion, gay priests, stem cell research, the Catholic Church has remained steadfast in it opposition to those and many more sick laws.

The lovely fruits of denominations, no moral voice.

Minor point - the Catholic Church is not against “stem cell research”. The Catholic Church IS against “embryonic stem cell research” since that research necessarily kills a human embryo.

 

[Eireann]

These weren’t believers. 1Corinthians teaches about the Judgement seat of Christ (the judgement of believers). ** To say this is believers is a gross misinterpretation of Scripture** that contradicts the entire gospel message and the truths of Jesus Christ as presented by the Apostles. If that is talking about believers, it even makes Jesus a liar. He said that He will never cast us out. He said He gives us ETERNAL LIFE. No, the passage you gave simply is not talking about believers. This would be those people who were never saved but liked to go to Church for selfish motives. They wanted Church, but not Christ.

Well will this do ? here we have believers being cast out.

Jesus said** no-one **can say Jesus is Lord unless the Holy Spirit revealed it to them, so I assume they believed.

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. 24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and do them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock.

Minor point - the Catholic Church is not against “stem cell research”. The Catholic Church IS against “embryonic stem cell research” since that research necessarily kills a human embryo.

Thanks for clarifying.

hoosierdaddy:

Thanks for your posts you guys.

Thanks for your thought provoking posts, keep safe.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Thanks for your posts you guys.

Maria, you have a point. Maybe the Catholic Church misunderstood Luther. Hey, we all misunderstand each other today so I wonder what it was like back then.

HailMary, thank you for the link. I will check it out.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Jesus said no-one can say Jesus is Lord unless the Holy Spirit revealed it to them, so I assume they believed.

This is talking about someone actually knowing that Jesus is Lord and actually having conviction that Jesus is Lord.

Before I was a Christian I could say Jesus was Lord. However, I lacked conviction. Even the demons in the gospels said that Jesus was the Holy One or the Lord.

 

[MariaG]

Thanks for your posts you guys.

Maria, you have a point. Maybe the Catholic Church misunderstood Luther. Hey, we all misunderstand each other today so I wonder what it was like back then.

HailMary, thank you for the link. I will check it out.

I will say though today, progress has been made. Although the Catholic church still disagrees with some points on Lutheran justification, some agreement has been met.

Here is a link to a document on the response to the joint declaration of the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church on the doctrine of Justification.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MrS]

Thanks for your posts you guys.

Maria, you have a point. Maybe the Catholic Church misunderstood Luther. Hey, we all misunderstand each other today so I wonder what it was like back then.

HailMary, thank you for the link. I will check it out.

for the absolute best and most fair description I strongly suggest the work by Karl Adam called Roots of the Reformation.

---

It is available from the Coming Home Network, and probably in many Catholic and other bookstores.
Adam is quite pointed about the abuses in the Catholic Church, and how they were perceived by the masses. Again, it is most fair and accurate, and at about 100 pages or less, it is an easy read.

.

 

[mercygate]

Mercygate>>It would be (is) entirely possible for a Catholic to argue sola fide, if by “fide” you mean “faith working through love” as Paul notes in Galatians 5.

The kind of “sola” the Catholic Church rejects is the kind that says all I need to do is “confess with my lips” and the rest is a done deal.

Even Protestants reject this. A simple confession with one’s lips is not enough. One must accompany that confession with believing in their heart.

That’s what I mean; we are really not far apart on this.

But there ARE – definitely, I have known them – people committed to the idea of eternal security, who say that nothing they can do or fail to do can imperil their salvation because they’re “saved” and that’s it. “I have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior!” End of story.

 

[Pax]

…
…
Even Protestants reject this. A simple confession with one’s lips is not enough. One must accompany that confession with believing in their heart.

Please explain as fully and as clearly as possible just what believing in the heart means.

Thanks

 

[john_ennis]

True believers will never leave, because Christ promises to keep them. Praise God!

But surely you’d agree that Paul was working out his salvation in fear and trembling because he realized he was free to turn away (and perfectly capable of turning away) from Christ?

That Christ offered Paul every grace necessary to be saved, but that it was Paul’s choice to accept or not?

This blends beautifully with Jesus’s answer regarding salvation (“What must I do?”): be like the Good Samaritan…love your neighbor…keep the commandments…go, sell all you have, and follow me.

Maybe these can be understood other ways, but don’t you see how they can be plainly understood to mean Works of Love complete our faith–they’re us letting Jesus work in us?

If I believed faith alone saved me, and works of love were just a spontaneous response to faith, I might be able to make these Scriptural passages support that…IF I went to a pastor to get the right “take” on them.

No average person would come up with it on the face of it.

Peace.
John

 

[E.E.N.S]

for the absolute best and most fair description I strongly suggest the work by Karl Adam called Roots of the Reformation.

It is available from the Coming Home Network, and probably in many Catholic and other bookstores.
Adam is quite pointed about the abuses in the Catholic Church, and how they were perceived by the masses. Again, it is most fair and accurate, and at about 100 pages or less, it is an easy read.

.

I would imaging it would be good - I loved The Spirit of Catholicism!

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Please explain as fully and as clearly as possible just what believing in the heart means.

Thanks

It is putting your full trust in Christ alone for your salvation. It is the other half of the equation from confessing with your lips. Both are necessary providing one is not a mute. The Bible teaches this.

I imagine it’s no different than believing in your heart that any other Catholic doctrines are true?

 

[hoosierdaddy]

**CM>>Twisted interpretation beyond all belief…

The only thing that makes you a Christian in our eyes is your expressed faith in Christ and your valid trinitarian baptism**

Not so. It is less an interpretation as there is only one interpretation for a passage as it is a recognition of the consequences of proper interpretation.

Funny thing, the only thing that makes you a Christian in my eyes is your expressed faith in Christ.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

You have nothing to entice us, same sex marriage, abortion, gay priests, stem cell research, the Catholic Church has remained steadfast in it opposition to those and many more sick laws.

I don’t want to get into personal attacks between churches but have you been following the news the past few years in regards to the Catholic Church? And the church right in my neighbourhood…the priest is no longer a priest because he is gay.

Now, as to anything enticing you. That’s fine. Christ is the enticement. But we most certainly don’t have same sex marriage, abortion, gay priests (or any priest for that matter), stem cell research, etc. etc. etc. in my Baptist church.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

But surely you’d agree that Paul was working out his salvation in fear and trembling because he realized he was free to turn away (and perfectly capable of turning away) from Christ?

I believe Paul was working out his salvation with fear and trembling because he was already eternally saved. One who wasn’t would care to. If Paul turned away he would prove that he NEVER was part of the Church. I just don’t believe that he could turn away if indeed he was a true believer.

That Christ offered Paul every grace necessary to be saved, but that it was Paul’s choice to accept or not?

To be honest, I don’t think so. I see God knocking Paul off a horse and then Paul going blind and then him being a believer. I don’t believe this was of his own free will. God had to do something drastic to MAKE Paul believe. Maybe Paul used his free will after he was enlightened but until then, he couldn’t. I’m not going to get into a whole debate though, but we really don’t have free will. I’ll clarify this. We DO have free will but we are only free to act and choose according to our natures. When one is not a believer they are a slave to sin and a slave of the devil. They cannot choose God. It takes a divine work of the Holy Spirit to enlighten someone to choose God. Remember that we did not choose God but that He chose us.

This blends beautifully with Jesus’s answer regarding salvation (“What must I do?”): be like the Good Samaritan…love your neighbor…keep the commandments…go, sell all you have, and follow me.

**But then what about the people who do all these things yet don’t believe? They are doing all these things to try and work their way to heaven. We have to remember that Jesus was talking to Old Testament Jewish people. Wouldn’t this be trying to be saved by keeping the Law which the NT condemns? Then again maybe you are right because Jesus also only talks about faith in John 3:16. So maybe all these good works have to be done out of love. But then…if you love God, chances are you have faith. And this won’t die so you will always be saved. **

Maybe these can be understood other ways, but don’t you see how they can be plainly understood to mean Works of Love complete our faith–they’re us letting Jesus work in us?

I do see how they can be understood that way. But good works and love only come into play when there is faith.

If I believed faith alone saved me, and works of love were just a spontaneous response to faith, I might be able to make these Scriptural passages support that…IF I went to a pastor to get the right “take” on them.

My friend, you should believe in faith alone. This is not just a mental assent. Faith reaches down to the deepest parts of your heart. It is a conviction that Jesus Christ is Lord and He died for ME. The good works will come as a result of this but you aren’t saved by the works. You are saved by faith.

No average person would come up with it on the face of it.

I don’t know, maybe not maybe so. Peace to you too.

Peace.
John

 

[The_Catholic]

The verse does not say they are damned. It says they are coming in through another way. And its not the best way, but its a way.
That verse is totally in line with Catholic teaching on the salvation for Protestants. BTW- if we were interpreting it ourselves, who knows how we would see it…
See my point?
I dont think they are damned either. You see, the Church does say they are not damned but that they will come in through the Church and Christ, like it or not, that is how it will happen. There is no salvation outside of the Church and even non Catholics will be saved in some mysterious way through Christ and His Church. even by the backdoor.
That was all I was saying. Dont be a backdoor man, come in through the front door.

I understand and agree with you. It just sounded like you were saying all non Catholics are dammed. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

**There is no salvation outside of the Church and even non Catholics will be saved in some mysterious way through Christ and His Church. even by the backdoor. **

I don’t know…I still disagree with the above statement. It is wrong and “confusing” as well.