Zen Meditation: Theory and Practice

[cathoichelp]

There are other sects of Buddhism that do not meditate … that are outward practice- not detached

 

[AntiTheist]

I suppose I need to clarify something. It was never my intention on this thread to suggest that Zen meditation is the equivalent of prayer or a practice that anyone needs to engage in or “should” engage in. I was merely sharing a technique that has proven useful to me, and I was explaining – as the title of this thread suggests – its theory and practice.

It’s a technique, as I say in the OP, that can be engaged in by people of any religion or no religion, and if you read some of the earlier posts in this thread – particularly the ones by LukeK – you’ll see how a religious person can take the same ideas I’m talking about and apply them to his own life.

Also, a few people here have said things like meditation creates a “void” and “nothingness” and that you should “be careful what you fill that void with!” and other silly comments like that. Zen meditation is not about creating a “void.” I think it’s better conceived as “removing a veil.” We walk around all day veiling the real world from ourselves with our thoughts and stories. We veil ourselves from ourselves, too. The process of meditation that I’m describing is one way to temporarily remove that veil and actually see things the way they are, even for a brief period of time.

One of the many benefits of removing that veil is “mindfulness,” as another poster indicates:

I have been reading this thread and at same reading about meditation and a term that resonated more so with me - mindfullness. …] Guess everyone will gave a different hobby which captures this - could be gardening, running, fishing etc etc seems like this concept more fully explained in the living it than theorizing part, thought I’d throw in my two cents on this topic.

This is precisely what I mean when I say you just do what you do and pay attention to it. You do everything with mindfulness. It’s true that, at first, it will be easiest to do this when performing certain enjoyable activities (and it’s arguably the easiest when you’re quiet with no distractions…hence, the “meditation” stuff). But really the goal is to gradually extend that mindfulness to everything you do

Now, of course, that’s the work of a lifetime right there, but that’s the nature of the work.

 

[rinnie]

I suppose I need to clarify something. It was never my intention on this thread to suggest that Zen meditation is the equivalent of prayer or a practice that anyone needs to engage in or “should” engage in. I was merely sharing a technique that has proven useful to me, and I was explaining – as the title of this thread suggests – its theory and practice.

It’s a technique, as I say in the OP, that can be engaged in by people of any religion or no religion, and if you read some of the earlier posts in this thread – particularly the ones by LukeK – you’ll see how a religious person can take the same ideas I’m talking about and apply them to his own life.

Also, a few people here have said things like meditation creates a “void” and “nothingness” and that you should “be careful what you fill that void with!” and other silly comments like that. Zen meditation is not about creating a “void.” I think it’s better conceived as “removing a veil.” We walk around all day veiling the real world from ourselves with our thoughts and stories. We veil ourselves from ourselves, too. The process of meditation that I’m describing is one way to temporarily remove that veil and actually see things the way they are, even for a brief period of time.

One of the many benefits of removing that veil is “mindfulness,” as another poster indicates:This is precisely what I mean when I say you just do what you do and pay attention to it. You do everything with mindfulness. It’s true that, at first, it will be easiest to do this when performing certain enjoyable activities (and it’s arguably the easiest when you’re quiet with no distractions…hence, the “meditation” stuff). But really the goal is to gradually extend that mindfulness to everything you do

Now, of course, that’s the work of a lifetime right there, but that’s the nature of the work.

Exactly, and I am just saying that the Pope is saying the opposite. This technique possesses nothing of value.

Jesus said you cannot serve 2 masters. So in light of that, when you practice Zen which is Buddhism what are you doing? You are choosing to do something that is considered an atheistic system according to the Pope.

I understand you are explaining its theory and practice but why on a Catholic thread, when the Church does not agree with this?

 

[rinnie]

There are other sects of Buddhism that do not meditate … that are outward practice- not detached

I understand what you are saying, but my point is you are following the practice of Budda.

And if you are Catholic you are to follow the practice of Jesus Christ.

That is all I am saying. I just want to stress that this is not recomended by the Church.

Alot of times people take small things and try to tie them into together with our practice, because on the Outside they may look the same, but they really are not.

This is how alot of inocent People get sucked into these things without complete honesty in the beginning.

All I am saying if its a duck, lets call it a duck. And while Budda does have some good points to it, Budda is not the Christian teaching. People will go because they are misled of what we have in common, but are not told the dangers that we do not have in common, which are more important.

 

[AntiTheist]

This technique possesses nothing of value.

I strongly disagree.

I understand you are explaining its theory and practice but why on a Catholic thread, when the Church does not agree with this?

Because, if you haven’t noticed, this is a forum called “Non-Catholic Religions.” I can’t think of a better place on here to explain a technique derived from a religion that is non-catholic.

Yes, yes, we know that “the church doesn’t agree with this!” I think I was pretty clear in the OP that this was a Buddhist technique, not a Catholic one.

But anyway, now that you’ve made your point a zillion times or so, I think you can rest easy in the knowledge that we all understand you.

 

[rinnie]

I strongly disagree.

Because, if you haven’t noticed, this is a forum called “Non-Catholic Religions.” I can’t think of a better place on here to explain a technique derived from a religion that is non-catholic.

Yes, yes, we know that “the church doesn’t agree with this!” I think I was pretty clear in the OP that this was a Buddhist technique, not a Catholic one.

But anyway, now that you’ve made your point a zillion times or so, I think you can rest easy in the knowledge that we all understand you.

Okay thats cool!

 

[rossum]

I understand what you are saying, but my point is you are following the practice of Budda.

And if you are Catholic you are to follow the practice of Jesus Christ.

Or you can do both at the same time. “Love others as you love yourself.” - Bhadramayakara vyakarana sutra 91.

Some Buddhist meditations are just as applicable to Christianity.

rossum

 

[rinnie]

Or you can do both at the same time. “Love others as you love yourself.” - Bhadramayakara vyakarana sutra 91.

Some Buddhist meditations are just as applicable to Christianity.

rossum

I agree with what you are saying, but let me say this in a different way. Yes there are many teachings that we indeed have in common. But my point is there is no reason for us to go to Buddhist meditations. There is nothing missing in our faith, that we would have to turn to Buddhism.

But you are correct there is much we have in common, and I respect and admire you for that. But in your faith your Salvation is from within, our Salvation is through Jesus Christ.

As I said you either follow Budda or Christ. We choose Christ, You cannot serve 2 Masters. If we choose the Christian faith that is what we must follow.

There are too many differences that we have. And when you have that many you cannot mix and match as they say.

 

[Cecilianus]

As I said you either follow Budda or Christ. We choose Christ, You cannot serve 2 Masters. If we choose the Christian faith that is what we must follow.

Buddhists do not serve Buddha. “If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.”

Buddhism is nothing more and nothing other than what it claims to be. Why are you elevating it to put on the same status as Christianity, when Buddhism itself never did this? The Buddha never claimed to be the Son of God - he claimed to be the man who woke up. You’re the one making an idol out of him.

 

[Cecilianus]

Wake up man, its not just shutting up and being quiet it is practicing Buddhism.

So?

I am a Christian. I have the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. How could there be multiple religions? How could there be something to set beside Christianity as its rival?

I approach Buddhism for what it is and what it claims to be. It does not call itself a “religion” in the Western sense of the term, and if it is one (and insofar as it is true) then it is non-dual with Christianity.

Remember that Greek philosophy was once a religion.

Pope John Paull ll said it is an atheistic System. Read his book Crossing the threshold of hope.

It’s not an atheistic system - the Buddha forbad metaphysical speculations (including atheism no less than speculation about gods) as useless for attaining salvation (and note that “salvation” is used in a different sense in Buddhism than in Christianity). And the Pope was not an expert on Buddhism (and did not claim to be). The Pope tells us what Christianity is; he is not an expert on astrophysics or Buddhism or tensor calculus.

For one thing, Buddhism is not a “system” in the Scholastic sense of the term.

I mean if you want to leave the faith admit it to yourself at least. You are either hot or cold.
If you are hot for your faith as Jesus taught us you stick with prayer and the teachings of the Church.

This is completely uncalled for, and probably broke the forum rules. You do not accuse people of leaving the faith.

If you are cold you will search out to this. But at least don’t be fooled by this new age stuff, at least admit what you are doing.

This is bad debating. “New age” is a fuzzy, loaded term without a definite comprehension and extension and which really doesn’t apply here. We’re not talking about Deepak Chopra; we’re talking about Zen.

Budda Salvation is a privite individual Consciousness.

I don’t know exactly what you mean here, but I do not think that this is a correct representation of nirvana.

For Catholics Salvation the ultimate goal is to meet Christ.

Sure we are taught to meditate and detach our soul from material things of this world, but the detachment does not stop there, We are taught to detach our soul from material things in this world so we can ATTACH our SOUL and offer it up to GOD.

None of the Catholics here are denying this.

There is no nothingless in our faith. Our faith is built on Christ.

Read St. Isaac of Syria (a Doctor of the Church) on the “mystery of the nothingness of God”. And St. John of the Cross. You are flat-out ignoring the entire apophatic and meontological mysticism of the Church. And yes, our faith is built on Christ.

Note, however, that the primary “nothingness” we experience is the nothingness from which we came and to which we return. Buddhism has a very strong sense of the Catholic dogma of creatio ex nihilo. “Remember, man, that thou art dust, and to dust thou shalt return.”

Budda is a state of nothingless for goodness sakes.

Again, not sure what you mean here.

Also, I think you are confusing “emptiness” (the Buddhist and Christian concept) with “nothingness” (a word which is more ambiguous, but often used - especially in a Christian context - to mean the same thing, and also to mean transcendence of finite categories).

Nirvana is ineffable, so we have to deny any predicates we can give of it (both being and non-being). If you want to actually understand Buddhism instead of just insulting people who talk about it, please read Nagarjuna’s Mulamadhyamakakarikas. It is available in an English translation by Frederick Streng.

When Jesus went up to the Mountain did he go to open up his mind and PRAY to THE FATHER, or did he open his mind up to nothingless. Please!

Its lent Man, get you priority’s in order. If you are indeed a Catholic please study up on the Catholic faith.

Please abstain from calumnizing our Catholicism. Nobody has said anything here that would indicate lack of education about Catholicism. We are talking about Zen; please study up on it before insulting the people holding the discussion.

The Pope says that Buddhism possesses nothing of value for us, Everything that we need is in the Catholic faith and the Catholic Church.

Everything that we need for salvation is in the Catholic Faith and the Catholic Church. But we also need material necessities - food, shelter, etc. We also need intellectual goods - art, science, philosophy, and whatever word you choose to categorize the treasures of the Orient such as Zen. Western categories abysmally fail to capture what exactly Hinduism, Zen, Confucianism, Taoism etc. are. The words “philosophy”, “religion”, “way of life”, etc. all impose Western preconceptions on them.

If you want to pray and meditate, you pray and meditate on God the Father the way Jesus taught us. You go in a quiet room and pray, You open your mind and soul up to Christ not some nothingless goal.

Who said Zen was prayer?

 

[Cecilianus]

Also, if indeed John Paul II said that there is nothing good or true in Buddhism in one of his books written in a private capacity, please note that he is contradicting the teaching of the Church as defined in Vatican II in their “declaration on non-Christian religions” (Nostra Aetate?).

 

[rinnie]

Also, if indeed John Paul II said that there is nothing good or true in Buddhism in one of his books written in a private capacity, please note that he is contradicting the teaching of the Church as defined in Vatican II in their “declaration on non-Christian religions” (Nostra Aetate?).

Let me say this differently. What John Paul ll said is that there is nothing that good that Buddhism has that the Catholic faith and prayers do not have. Anotherwards the Catholic faith and prayers are not lacking. There is nothing that you can get from Buddhism that you cannot get from the Church. That is what I meant there.

We are taught to admire the truth in Buddhism as with all faiths, but we are also told to not stray from the teachings of the Church. That is what I am saying.

The point I would like to stress is before anyone in the faith would consider this, please study up on what it actually is.

For me as a Catholic to follow this is breaking the Commandment of God. There is nowhere in the Catholic faith that we are taught to find the truth within ourself. All truth comes from God. Any truth that we can find in ourself is a gift from God from his Grace. That is my point.

 

[rinnie]

Practicing Zen is supposed to help reduce suffering of bad karma seeded in our past lives. It is considered a purification process.

Lets start there, we do not believe in the Catholic faith that we have past lives. So how do you say that this would help us?

 

[rinnie]

Buddhists do not serve Buddha. “If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.”

Buddhism is nothing more and nothing other than what it claims to be. Why are you elevating it to put on the same status as Christianity, when Buddhism itself never did this? The Buddha never claimed to be the Son of God - he claimed to be the man who woke up. You’re the one making an idol out of him.

Buddhism is considered a Religion and Philosopy of Siddhartha Gautana. Where did I say that Budda ever claimed to be the Son of God.

For that fact where did Joseph Smith ever claim to be the Son of God. You do not have to claim to be the Son of God to have a different Religion.

And why are you acting like it is no big deal?

Buddhism rejects the notion of a Supreme God!!

 

[rinnie]

Christian Prayer always involves mind and heart.
Mind emptying techniques are not Christian Prayers.

The True Self is not God.

Involvement in the occult practices in Deut:18 is grave sin.

Hinduism, Zen Buddhism and New age do not mix with the Catholic Faith.

 

[rinnie]

I don’t think anyone’s making Zen and Christianity equal - in fact, AntiTheist flat out described Zen as just “shutting up and being quiet”. And though I have never practiced it, I think it seems a very insightful and deep tool for reaching enlightenment of intellectual truths that cannot be expressed in words - like the profundity of a work of art, or the contemplation of nature.

Please read up on this, and then come back and tell me if you still believe what you just said!

It is better to have you investigate the teaching’s of Zen Buddhism and then what the Church says then to argue with you about this.

Please read up and then come back with your response.

 

[AntiTheist]

Rinnie,

It’s not that I don’t enjoy seeing you quadruple post on a thread to just say basically the same thing over and over again, but…

What in blazes are you talking about and what is your obsession with informing us that Zen and Catholicism aren’t the same thing? We’re all aware of the stark differences – in fact, as I was implying in many of my earlier posts, I think that much of what passes for religion is one big “story of the mind” that this kind of meditation practice should help you see through.

Then you come out with things that make me wonder if you even are on the same page as the rest of us, things like:

Practicing Zen is supposed to help reduce suffering of bad karma seeded in our past lives. It is considered a purification process.

Lets start there, we do not believe in the Catholic faith that we have past lives. So how do you say that this would help us?

No one on this thread is talking about reincarnation. If you would actually read the OP, you’d see that I’m not advocating Buddhism…I’m talking about a technique, one I derived from a form of Buddhism. It’s the technique that is the subject of this thread, not the wacky doctrines of the more supernatural varieties of Buddhism.

I can’t help but wonder whether you’re reading this whole thread through the lens of a “mind story” that is distorting your ability to perceive what’s really going on here. You’re not reacting to anything in the thread itself – you’re reacting to a story that your mind is telling you about the thread.

Learning to differentiate between your thoughts and reality is good practice and is simply invaluable.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,

It’s not that I don’t enjoy seeing you quadruple post on a thread to just say basically the same thing over and over again, but…

What in blazes are you talking about and what is your obsession with informing us that Zen and Catholicism aren’t the same thing? We’re all aware of the stark differences – in fact, as I was implying in many of my earlier posts, I think that much of what passes for religion is one big “story of the mind” that this kind of meditation practice should help you see through.

Then you come out with things that make me wonder if you even are on the same page as the rest of us, things like:

No one on this thread is talking about reincarnation. If you would actually read the OP, you’d see that I’m not advocating Buddhism…I’m talking about a technique, one I derived from a form of Buddhism. It’s the technique that is the subject of this thread, not the wacky doctrines of the more supernatural varieties of Buddhism.

I can’t help but wonder whether you’re reading this whole thread through the lens of a “mind story” that is distorting your ability to perceive what’s really going on here. You’re not reacting to anything in the thread itself – you’re reacting to a story that your mind is telling you about the thread.

Learning to differentiate between your thoughts and reality is good practice and is simply invaluable.

Is it not the technique we have been talking about? It is that same technique that we are advised not to do. That is just all I am saying.

Zen is a form of Buddhism. You admitted yourself that is where it came from. I am just saying that this technique as you call it is not recommended by the Church.

You claim that you feel that what one calls Religion is just one big story of the mind and this will HELP US?? I am just saying that according to the last 2 Popes its a big fat NO!!

You have made your point clear what you feel Religion is. But to us it is not a big story of the mind, and this practice can degenerate into cult of the body that debases Christian Prayer.

So I am just saying what you think and what the Popes taught us are two very different things.

To make it short and sweet, Zen does not help us it lowers the dignity of Christian Prayer. That is what the Popes said, and I choose to go with them!!

So now do you see why I am having such a hard time accepting this TECHNIQUE that you claim can help us.

By the way to say that you are not advocating Buddhism, but then do suggest a technique that they use, would be like me saying that I am not suggesting you should follow the Catholic faith, but praying the Rosary’s would help you. GIve me a break!!!

 

[rossum]

I approach Buddhism for what it is and what it claims to be. It does not call itself a “religion” in the Western sense of the term, and if it is one (and insofar as it is true) then it is non-dual with Christianity.

Buddhism calls itself a path. That could perhaps also be translated as ‘method’ or ‘methods’.

This is bad debating. “New age” is a fuzzy, loaded term without a definite comprehension and extension and which really doesn’t apply here. We’re not talking about Deepak Chopra; we’re talking about Zen.

I find it mildly amusing that a Christian uses “new” to disparage Buddhism.

I don’t know exactly what you mean here, but I do not think that this is a correct representation of nirvana.

All descriptions of nirvana are misleading. They have to be, words cannot describe that which cannot be described in words.

Read St. Isaac of Syria (a Doctor of the Church) on the “mystery of the nothingness of God”. And St. John of the Cross. You are flat-out ignoring the entire apophatic and meontological mysticism of the Church. And yes, our faith is built on Christ.

I would add Pseudo-Dionysius and Meister Eckhart to that list. Yes I am aware that Eckhart had some suspect theology.

If you want to actually understand Buddhism instead of just insulting people who talk about it, please read Nagarjuna’s Mulamadhyamakakarikas. It is available in an English translation by Frederick Streng.

I have not read Streng’s translation. Of the ones I have read I prefer Garfield’s. Be warned that Nagarjuna is not an easy read. I might be easier to approach Madhyamika Buddhism through Shantideva’s Bodhicaryavatara. Chapter Nine contains the philosophical basics.

rossum

 

[Warrior1979]

Buddhism rejects the notion of a Supreme God!!

In my very limited understanding of this religion I do not believe this to be true. I think it would be more proper to say that generally they neither confirm nor nor deny a god.