Zionism Anti-Catholic???

[Antonius_Lupus]

The author of www.scripturecatholic.com has openly stated that Zionism is anti-Catholic.

Yet I believe in Zionism (I am returning to the Church from Evangelicalism) does this stand opposed to the Catholic Faith?

I also want to know if there will be a mass conversion of Jews to Christ in the future??

What does the Church teach???

 

[Trad_Catholic_1]

*** Zionism is an anti-Catholic movement that attempts to remove the Church as the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies, and the only authoritative voice for interpreting these prophecies. By turning Scripture into a wax nose for their own political and religious fantasies, Zionists make the Jews and Israel, and not the New Testament Church, the focus of God’s divine plan. Zionism is blatantly false and has no basis in Sacred Scripture or Tradition.***

scripturecatholic.com/zionism.html

This is absolutely correct. No Catholic can be nor support Zionism.

 

[chosen_people]

*** Zionism is an anti-Catholic movement that attempts to remove the Church as the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies, and the only authoritative voice for interpreting these prophecies. By turning Scripture into a wax nose for their own political and religious fantasies, Zionists make the Jews and Israel, and not the New Testament Church, the focus of God’s divine plan. Zionism is blatantly false and has no basis in Sacred Scripture or Tradition.***

scripturecatholic.com/zionism.html

This is absolutely correct. No Catholic can be nor support Zionism.

The article which purports to be about Zionism and the claim that Zionism is an anti Catholic movement is a classic example of Christian antisemitism and perhaps a better example than any I could possibly think of to support the claim that underneath an anti Zionist lurks an antisemite. There is absolutely no connection between Zionism and the views expressed in the above article.

Zionism is NOT part of a greater eschatological worldview that sees the restoration of Israel as a sign of the end-times. Zionism is an integral part of Judaisim. The end of the world view is Christian.

To understand how absolutely non sensical and illogical the above article is view the following quotation from the article:

“However, prior to Christ’s earthly reign from Jerusalem, Zionists believe that Gentile Christians who are still living at this time will be secretly taken up into heaven. This will pave the way for the Jews to rule with Jesus for the millennial period. They call this secret taking of Christians up to heaven “The Rapture,” and base this belief on Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians”:

In other words, according to the article, Jews believe that Jesus is the Messiah and have developed this secret plan called Zionism to take Gentile Christians (as opposed to “Jewish Christians”?) to Heaven to rule with Jesus? I guess it turns out that the Jews are actually Christians using “Non Jewish Christians” for their diabolical plans. Jews, not being satisfied with having taken over all the money and power in the world ( see the Protocols of the Elders of Zion- apparently the basis for the Zionism referred to in the article) plan to take over Heaven as well to the detriment of good Catholics everywhere.

No Zionist would have ever heard of the “Zionism” in the article.

No one but an antisemite could possibly believe it.

 

[Melchior]

The author of www.scripturecatholic.com has openly stated that Zionism is anti-Catholic.

Yet I believe in Zionism (I am returning to the Church from Evangelicalism) does this stand opposed to the Catholic Faith?

I also want to know if there will be a mass conversion of Jews to Christ in the future??

What does the Church teach???

The author is wrong. Certainly dispensationalist have it all wrong. But Israel has been a nation (again) for over 50 years. There have been dozens of nations that are more recent in area with much more genuine dispute. Yet no one talks about them. More like the author is anti-Israel and possibly anti-semitic the two tend to go together. The authors problem is with Jews one way or another.

St. Paul did seem to indicate that one day there will be a mass conversion of Jews to Christ. Which I certainly pray for.

Israel is a nation. Has been for a while. Zionism is a buzzword for those who don’t recognize the Jews right to their homeland. There is certainly no good theological argument from a Christian perspective. But the historical and humanitarian one works just fine. Zionism was as a serious movement ended when Israel became a state in 1948. People who harp on it remind me of those who are still fighting ther civil war… er I mean the Wah of Nawthun Aggression. The Jew haters need to get over it.

Mel

 

[Melchior]

*** Zionism is an anti-Catholic movement that attempts to remove the Church as the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies, and the only authoritative voice for interpreting these prophecies. By turning Scripture into a wax nose for their own political and religious fantasies, Zionists make the Jews and Israel, and not the New Testament Church, the focus of God’s divine plan. Zionism is blatantly false and has no basis in Sacred Scripture or Tradition.***

scripturecatholic.com/zionism.html

This is absolutely correct. No Catholic can be nor support Zionism.

Absolutely false. If you replace the word “Zionism” with Dipsensationalism then I can agree with you. This is simply a confusion of categories and racist one at that (not you, the author).

Mel

 

[Reformed1]

The author is wrong. Certainly dispensationalist have it all wrong. But Israel has been a nation (again) for over 50 years. There have been dozens of nations that are more recent in area with much more genuine dispute. Yet no one talks about them. More like the author is anti-Israel and possibly anti-semitic the two tend to go together. The authors problem is with Jews one way or another.

St. Paul did seem to indicate that one day there will be a mass conversion of Jews to Christ. Which I certainly pray for.

Israel is a nation. Has been for a while. Zionism is a buzzword for those who don’t recognize the Jews right to their homeland. There is certainly no good theological argument from a Christian perspective. But the historical and humanitarian one works just fine. Zionism was as a serious movement ended when Israel became a state in 1948. People who harp on it remind me of those who are still fighting ther civil war… er I mean the Wah of Nawthun Aggression. The Jew haters need to get over it.

Mel

Where is the author wrong?

 

[Melchior]

The article which purports to be about Zionism and the claim that Zionism is an anti Catholic movement is a classic example of Christian antisemitism and perhaps a better example than any I could possibly think of to support the claim that underneath an anti Zionist lurks an antisemite. There is absolutely no connection between Zionism and the views expressed in the above article.

Zionism is NOT part of a greater eschatological worldview that sees the restoration of Israel as a sign of the end-times. Zionism is an integral part of Judaisim. The end of the world view is Christian.

To understand how absolutely non sensical and illogical the above article is view the following quotation from the article:

“However, prior to Christ’s earthly reign from Jerusalem, Zionists believe that Gentile Christians who are still living at this time will be secretly taken up into heaven. This will pave the way for the Jews to rule with Jesus for the millennial period. They call this secret taking of Christians up to heaven “The Rapture,” and base this belief on Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians”:

In other words, according to the article, Jews believe that Jesus is the Messiah and have developed this secret plan called Zionism to take Gentile Christians (as opposed to “Jewish Christians”?) to Heaven to rule with Jesus? I guess it turns out that the Jews are actually Christians using “Non Jewish Christians” for their diabolical plans. Jews, not being satisfied with having taken over all the money and power in the world ( see the Protocols of the Elders of Zion- apparently the basis for the Zionism referred to in the article) plan to take over Heaven as well to the detriment of good Catholics everywhere.

No Zionist would have ever heard of the “Zionism” in the article.

No one but an antisemite could possibly believe it.

Thank you!

I am so sick of people who claim to be Christians, and therefore worship God the Son, Jesus (Yeshua) Christ (Meshiach) who are ant-semites. They are certainly a minority. But, they worship a Jew!!!

You are absolutely right that beneath every (or at least most) anti-Zionist lurks an anti-semite. It is so amazing to me that there is no outrage over the dozens of countries that came into existence in that past 20 years through much more dubious and genocidal means than the Palestinian Mandate don’t register a blip on the radar of these bigots. Hmmm. I wonder why? Could it be because these are not Jewish nations?

Mel

 

[Melchior]

Where is the author wrong?

He misidentifies Dispensationalism as Zionism. Zionism is a Jewish movement, not a Christian one. Other posters have pointed out some of the stupid things in the article that any clear-headed person knows to be false - and I am sure you are clear headed.

I am Postmill. I don’t believe Jews have any theological basis for having this particular piece of land. But they do have it and they have it legally. End of story and they have every moral and legal right to it as established by the U.N. Just like Jordan who no one seems to have a problem with though it was created at the same exact time in the same exact way - with the exact same refugees sitting in tents on the outskirts.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

As a former Dispensationalist myself I was a stauch supporter of Israel, and when I saw the light and returned to the Catholic Church I took my stauch support of Israel with me.

Now I am wondering whether my love of the Jewish people is misplaced. Does the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church support the belief that Jews will (as a people) return to Christ before his Second Coming (Note: I am Amillenial)???

What does the Magesterium teach about this issue???

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

He misidentifies Dispensationalism as Zionism.

I was suspect of that myself.

Thanks for clarifying!

 

[Reformed1]

As a former Dispensationalist myself I was a stauch supporter of Israel, and when I saw the light and returned to the Catholic Church I took my stauch support of Israel with me.

Now I am wondering whether my love of the Jewish people is misplaced. Does the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church support the belief that Jews will (as a people) return to Christ before his Second Coming (Note: I am Amillenial)???

What does the Magesterium teach about this issue???

On another thread you identified your past theological leanings as being reformed. I haven’t met too many reformed folks who are also dispensationalists.

You meet all kinds of people here.

 

[Reformed1]

As a former Dispensationalist myself I was a stauch supporter of Israel, and when I saw the light and returned to the Catholic Church I took my stauch support of Israel with me.

Now I am wondering whether my love of the Jewish people is misplaced. Does the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church support the belief that Jews will (as a people) return to Christ before his Second Coming (Note: I am Amillenial)???

What does the Magesterium teach about this issue???

One thing I do find interesting about your church right now is that you guys seem rather conflicted as to whether the old covenant is still salvific or not. Your current pope seems to believe it (the old covenant) was done away with while several of your cardinals and apologists seem to think the old covenant is still in effect.

 

[Fidelis]

First of all, read Romans 9 through 11:

usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans9.htm

In light of those passages, here is what the Church teaches in the Catechism:

**839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.” **

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, “the first to hear the Word of God.” The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”, “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

674 The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by “all Israel”, for “a hardening has come upon part of Israel” in their “unbelief” toward Jesus.St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: “Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old.” St. Paul echoes him: “For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?” The “full inclusion” of the Jews in the Messiah’s salvation, in the wake of “the full number of the Gentiles”, will enable the People of God to achieve “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”, in which “God may be all in all”.

Where the Church has clearly spoken, there is no need for (Edited by Moderator) speculation on anyone’s part.

 

[Trad_Catholic_1]

The article which purports to be about Zionism and the claim that Zionism is an anti Catholic movement is a classic example of Christian antisemitism and perhaps a better example than any I could possibly think of to support the claim that underneath an anti Zionist lurks an antisemite. There is absolutely no connection between Zionism and the views expressed in the above article.

Is that so? Well perhaps you’d be good enough to point out where or how exactly this constitutes Mein Kampf instead of slinging some predictably hysterical “antisemite” slur. I’m waiting.

Zionism is NOT part of a greater eschatological worldview that sees the restoration of Israel as a sign of the end-times. Zionism is an integral part of Judaisim. The end of the world view is Christian.

This is nonsense. Complete and utter nonsense. You don’t have to be Jewish to be a Zionist and you certainly don’t have to believe in G-d to be a Jew. So how can Zionism be “an integral part of Judaisim”???.

To understand how absolutely non sensical and illogical the above article is view the following quotation from the article:

“However, prior to Christ’s earthly reign from Jerusalem, Zionists believe that Gentile Christians who are still living at this time will be secretly taken up into heaven. This will pave the way for the Jews to rule with Jesus for the millennial period. They call this secret taking of Christians up to heaven “The Rapture,” and base this belief on Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians”:

In other words, according to the article, Jews believe that Jesus is the Messiah and have developed this secret plan called Zionism to take Gentile Christians (as opposed to “Jewish Christians”?) to Heaven to rule with Jesus? I guess it turns out that the Jews are actually Christians using “Non Jewish Christians” for their diabolical plans. Jews, not being satisfied with having taken over all the money and power in the world ( see the Protocols of the Elders of Zion- apparently the basis for the Zionism referred to in the article) plan to take over Heaven as well to the detriment of good Catholics everywhere…

More deliberate distortion and misrepresentation from you.

No Zionist would have ever heard of the “Zionism” in the article.

No one but an antisemite could possibly believe it.

You’re obviously a Zionist so its not surprising that you would rather not anything bad said about Zionism. Look, if you’ve actually got something worthwhile to contribute then do so. Otherwise keep your anti-Catholic slurs to yourself please.

 

[Reformed1]

First of all, read Romans 9 through 11:

usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans9.htm

In light of those passages, here is what the Church teaches in the Catechism:

Where the Church has clearly spoken, there is no need for ignorant and rancorous speculation on anyone’s part.

What has the church “clearly” spoken about?

Does “all of Israel” mean each and every single Jew, what exactly does the phrase mean?

Some of your cardinals seem to think that the Jews still possess a salvific covenant, others such as your current pope disagree.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

On another thread you identified your past theological leanings as being reformed. I haven’t met too many reformed folks who are also dispensationalists.

You meet all kinds of people here.

Allow me to be more specific, I was a Southern Baptist. I believed in TULIP and I was a Premillenialist.

Please excuse me if I have caused confusion.

 

[Melchior]

Is that so? Well perhaps you’d be good enough to point out where or how exactly this constitutes Mein Kampf instead of slinging some predictably hysterical “antisemite” slur. I’m waiting.

This is nonsense. Complete and utter nonsense. You don’t have to be Jewish to be a Zionist and you certainly don’t have to believe in G-d to be a Jew. So how can Zionism be “an integral part of Judaisim”???.

More deliberate distortion and misrepresentation from you.

You’re obviously a Zionist so its not surprising that you would rather not anything bad said about Zionism. Look, if you’ve actually got something worthwhile to contribute then do so. Otherwise keep your anti-Catholic slurs to yourself please.

Where did he slur Catholicism? You simply reinforced everything he said. Like a good liberal, you get hysterical without supporting your position.

The author is referring to dispensationalism an even then only attacks their minority position. You can redefine Zionism however you like but it does not make your definition true. Which it is not. A Christian can have sympathies for the Zionist movement which is a historical movement nearly 60 years gone in reality, without being a Zionist. It is like saying a Buddhist can be a Jihadist. If you actually know what those things are it becomes clear how stupid it would sound if someone made that claim.

As for the anti-semitism aspect. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck… Otherwise why do you folks get so obsessed and hysterical over the Jews? No need to answer. I just recommend you examine your motives and remember you worship a Jew.

 

[Melchior]

What has the church “clearly” spoken about?

Does “all of Israel” mean each and every single Jew, what exactly does the phrase mean?

Some of your cardinals seem to think that the Jews still possess a salvific covenant, others such as your current pope disagree.

What is the uniform Reformed position? O. Palmer Robertson’s, John Calvin, James Montgomery Boice’s or RC Sprouls?

Any Christian who believes the Jews are bound by a different covenant are as deluded as that little group of renegade Bishops who made the claim contra Catholic teaching - which as I understand it is essentially the same as most Reformed. Of course I will exclude a certain stripe of Southern Presbyterian (no offense I love the PCA and OPC), that seems to go the same route as renegade Traditionalist Catholics and the author of that article.

Mel

 

[Trad_Catholic_1]

Where did he slur Catholicism? You simply reinforced everything he said. Like a good liberal, you get hysterical without supporting your position.

The author is referring to dispensationalism an even then only attacks their minority position. You can redefine Zionism however you like but it does not make your definition true. Which it is not. A Christian can have sympathies for the Zionist movement which is a historical movement nearly 60 years gone in reality, without being a Zionist. It is like saying a Buddhist can be a Jihadist. If you actually know what those things are it becomes clear how stupid it would sound if someone made that claim.

As for the anti-semitism aspect. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck… Otherwise why do you folks get so obsessed and hysterical over the Jews? No need to answer. I just recommend you examine your motives and remember you worship a Jew.

Excuse me! I don’t worship a Jew. The disciples were Jews, but Jesus was the Son of God!

I shouldn’t be surprised. The slightest criticism of Zionism or Israel, however valid and up pop the Zionists just like a jack-in-the-box screaming “antisemitism” until they’re blue in the face in an attempt to silence all criticism.

Israel is a Zionist state. It is a racist apartheid state. It is not a Christian state. It is not even supported by orthodox Jews - so much for Zionism being “an integral part of Judaisim”. Moreover, I firmly believe that Jesus Christ is on the side of the Palestinian people, not the murderous IDF. I guess that makes me a Christian antisemite. Is that liberal enough for you? Or am I really a Jew hating Nazi. Either way, it doesn’t bother me.

 

[Melchior]

Excuse me! I don’t worship a Jew. The disciples were Jews, but Jesus was the Son of God!

I shouldn’t be surprised. The slightest criticism of Zionism or Israel, however valid and up pop the Zionists just like a jack-in-the-box screaming “antisemitism” until they’re blue in the face in an attempt to silence all criticism.

This is about the most ignorant post I have ever read. Was Jesus not a Jew? Was Mary not a Jew. He is fully God and fully Man. In his manhood He is mostly certainly a Jew. Your Christology is wrong. Can cannot worship Christ in part. He cannot be seperated.

One does not have to be a Zionist (sonce they don’t really exist anymore anyway) to have common sense. I am not a Zionist. But you are good at using it exactly as anyone is Al Qaeda would. Congratulations on that.

There was no valid criticism. Just rantings, wrong definitions and bigotry. Seems like you are the one trying to silence the criticism. You are ranting.

Israel is a Zionist state. It is a racist apartheid state. It is not a Christian state. It is not even supported by orthodox Jews - so much for Zionism being “an integral part of Judaisim”. Moreover, I firmly believe that Jesus Christ is on the side of the Palestinian people, not the murderous IDF. I guess that makes me a Christian antisemite. Is that liberal enough for you? Or am I really a Jew hating Nazi. Either way, it doesn’t bother me.

That is just absurd and unsubstantiated. Would you say the same of Jordan? So you think a democracy protecting it’s citizens from muslim terrorist who blow up their children is racist. How dare those Jews not role over and die! You obviously have not idea what apartheid even means/ 12% of Israeli’s with and equal representation in the Israeli government are Arabs. You are completely ignorant on Israel’s modern history and recent history and are just repeating muslim and anti-semitic epithets but you could not possibly back it up.

So Jesus is on the side of Hamas? Remeber the Palestinian people freely elected a terrorist organization. You morality is obviously skewed by your hatred for the Jews which is apparent since you haver no regard for Jewish life. Does it make you a Christian antisemite? No it makes you either completely ignorant, an antisemite (and thus not real Christian at all) or both. If Christ were on earth now those who you think he would side with would kill him for being a Jew.

To say it is not supported by Orthodox Jews is just about the stupidest thing I have ever heard. I see you have heard about that tiny group of New York Jews who dress up like Orthodox Jews and pretend they are even though they just popped up in the last 5 years or so. Even if they were actual Orthodox Jews, they would represent less than a fraction of 1% of Orthodox Jews who support the state of Israel more than any one on the planet! Man, do you believe everything you hear?

You need to get an education on Israel and Jews in general if you want to rage about Israel. But you have shown your motives. You people single out the Jews get all your facts wrong and expect people to believe your motives are anything other than Jew hatred?

Mel