Zionism Anti-Catholic???

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Ridgerunner said:
I am not Jewish, so perhaps it is a bit perilous for me to talk about it. No one can truly understand what it is to be a Jew unless he is one, I suspect.

I agree with a previous poster who said that the term “Zionism” was once not considered a toxic term in the way it is used today by those who hate Jews and/or Israel.

The Israel issue is complicated by the fact that Jews are simultaneously an ethnic group, a cultural group and a religious group, in a way that no others on earth are. In addition, all three elements are identified with occupation of a particular geographic location, in a way that is more intense than is the case with most ethnic, cultural or religious groups, but which is certainly shared with many ethnic and cultural groups.

So, “Zionism” is, on one level, nothing but the desire of an ethnic group to occupy their historic homeland. Lots of people have that. Germans, French, Italians. Almost everyone shares this to some degree. When one adds that Jews have often been unprotected in the states where others dominate, it has a particular importance to them to have a land in which they (hopefully) may be “safe”, at least from their own government.

As a religion, of course Judaism is “anti-Catholic” in a way; in the same way that Anglicanism is or Mormonism is or Methodism is. Virtually all religions affirm their own tenets and, in so doing, reject, at least tacitly, the tenets of another. Nothing unusual or ominous in that. Some Jews have a particular dislike of Catholicism, blaming the Church for things that happened to their people in Europe. That can be said to be “anti-Catholic” in a deeper sense. But that kind of thing isn’t peculiar to Jews. Some Irish still hate Brits for the same reason. In my own experience, for whatever it’s worth, the Jews I know don’t seem to have any particular rancor toward Catholicism or Gentiles, though there is always a kind of sense that I am regarded as “the other”, and that there is a gap between us that can never be completely bridged. But that’s okay, even with friends. Some things just are what they are, and as long as no one harms or intends harm, my Jewish friends can regard me as “the other”, as “the Goy” in the particular way some Jews have of feeling that way.

I am not one of those people who regards the State of Israel as some kind of Apocalyptic mandate. It’s just a nation state that is particularly dear to its inhabitants and to Jews elsewhere. But it’s a free and democratic nation of civilized and good people with a historic claim to be there, and who turned it from a ragged desert, long ago ravaged and depopulated by Turkish misrule, into a fruitful and pleasant land. Not many people have a better claim to the land they inhabit than they do. Not many people have a stronger right to defend themselves than they do.
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There is a difference to being non Catholic to being anti Catholic. Jews are non Catholics. They are not taught to hate Catholics. They do not believe that people who do not believe as they do will be damned. We do have a long history of suffering Christian antisemitism which has expressed itself in the murdering of Jews, expulsions, forced conversions and destruction of synagogues. It is unforunate that the history Church - Jewish relations over the centuries is not better understood by Christians. It does make Jews wary in their relations with non Jews and I believe this is what you are experiencing.

By your definition all Christians are ipso facto “anti Jewish” which if true not only bodes ill for mutual toleration and respect but sort of begs the point.

Bear with me and do a simple experiment. Surf the internet for antisemitic sites. You will find hundreds of thousands. Now search the internet for Jewish sites spewing hate against Christians. Couldn’t find any?

Another example. The Jewish state of Israel, in accordance with Jewish values, despite the history of Christian antisemitism, fully protects Christian holy sites and the rights of Christians and of all religions to freedom of worship. The only country in the middle east where the Christian community has grown and not declined is in Israel.
 
Reformed1 said:
One thing I do find interesting about your church right now is that you guys seem rather conflicted as to whether the old covenant is still salvific or not. Your current pope seems to believe it (the old covenant) was done away with while several of your cardinals and apologists seem to think the old covenant is still in effect.
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There is a huge difference between saying that the Old Covenant is no longer salvific, and saying that it is still in effect. St. Paul himself says that it’s still in effect, while also saying that it does not save.

God’s promises are not revoked, but there is no way to Heaven except through Christ; the Old Covenant never claimed to be Salvific in the Christian sense, so whether or not it is revoked or not has nothing to do with Salvation. What was promised in the Old Covenant, the coming of the Messiah, has occured, but there are other promises to the descendants of Abraham that don’t necessarily end with the coming of the Messiah.

That is why we can say that the Old Covenant does not save, and never did, and that it’s still in effect.

Peace and God bless!
 
Ghosty said:
There is a huge difference between saying that the Old Covenant is no longer salvific, and saying that it is still in effect. St. Paul himself says that it’s still in effect, while also saying that it does not save.

God’s promises are not revoked, but there is no way to Heaven except through Christ; the Old Covenant never claimed to be Salvific in the Christian sense, so whether or not it is revoked or not has nothing to do with Salvation. What was promised in the Old Covenant, the coming of the Messiah, has occured, but there are other promises to the descendants of Abraham that don’t necessarily end with the coming of the Messiah.

That is why we can say that the Old Covenant does not save, and never did, and that it’s still in effect.

Peace and God bless!
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Where does Paul say that the OC is still in effect?
 
Ridgerunner said:
I am not Jewish, so perhaps it is a bit perilous for me to talk about it. No one can truly understand what it is to be a Jew unless he is one, I suspect.

I agree with a previous poster who said that the term “Zionism” was once not considered a toxic term in the way it is used today by those who hate Jews and/or Israel.

The Israel issue is complicated by the fact that Jews are simultaneously an ethnic group, a cultural group and a religious group, in a way that no others on earth are. In addition, all three elements are identified with occupation of a particular geographic location, in a way that is more intense than is the case with most ethnic, cultural or religious groups, but which is certainly shared with many ethnic and cultural groups.

So, “Zionism” is, on one level, nothing but the desire of an ethnic group to occupy their historic homeland. Lots of people have that. Germans, French, Italians. Almost everyone shares this to some degree. When one adds that Jews have often been unprotected in the states where others dominate, it has a particular importance to them to have a land in which they (hopefully) may be “safe”, at least from their own government.

As a religion, of course Judaism is “anti-Catholic” in a way; in the same way that Anglicanism is or Mormonism is or Methodism is. Virtually all religions affirm their own tenets and, in so doing, reject, at least tacitly, the tenets of another. Nothing unusual or ominous in that. Some Jews have a particular dislike of Catholicism, blaming the Church for things that happened to their people in Europe. That can be said to be “anti-Catholic” in a deeper sense. But that kind of thing isn’t peculiar to Jews. Some Irish still hate Brits for the same reason. In my own experience, for whatever it’s worth, the Jews I know don’t seem to have any particular rancor toward Catholicism or Gentiles, though there is always a kind of sense that I am regarded as “the other”, and that there is a gap between us that can never be completely bridged. But that’s okay, even with friends. Some things just are what they are, and as long as no one harms or intends harm, my Jewish friends can regard me as “the other”, as “the Goy” in the particular way some Jews have of feeling that way.

I am not one of those people who regards the State of Israel as some kind of Apocalyptic mandate. It’s just a nation state that is particularly dear to its inhabitants and to Jews elsewhere. But it’s a free and democratic nation of civilized and good people with a historic claim to be there, and who turned it from a ragged desert, long ago ravaged and depopulated by Turkish misrule, into a fruitful and pleasant land. Not many people have a better claim to the land they inhabit than they do. Not many people have a stronger right to defend themselves than they do.
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Thank you. You hit the nail on the head - though I think “anti” is not the right prefix, but I get your point in a theological sense. I would just say that any religious group that denies Christ is wrong and even false.

I think the otherness thing comes from a strong sense of community that is based on protectiveness. I remember my dad avoiding drawing attention to our Jewishness in our neighborhood as a kid. The neighborhood was not very Jew friendly. But generally speaking you will get the same feeling from certain other ethnic groups. Greeks are very similar in this regard.
 
Melchior said:
Paul you are blurring the lines of word meanings. This statement would be absolutely true if you changed “Zionist Jews” to liberals Jews and liberal non Jews. If you were talking about the people at the ADL who can find anti-semtism behind anything we could agree. They are similar to other “civil rights” groups that look for offense where there is none and end up sounding like the little boy who cried wolf when real acts of anti-semitism or racism happens. They hurt the cause the claim to represent.

But you really need to stop using “Zionist” as an epithet, it is unfortunate the moderator has not picked up on the way it is being used. 20 years ago the word would have been “dirty” now it is just a more sophisticated slur, a clever euphemism. But make no mistakes it is a euphemism. Do you call Americans who live West of the Mississippi derogatory nicknames that refer to white people as stealing Indian lands or Mexican lands? Do you think we should give Mexico back? Do you think “Damn Yankee” is an appropriate or Christian name to call someone because of where they happen to be from? You really need to show some respect. I am far from PC but your euphemisms are offensive, especially because you have not taken the time to be accurate or even close to it. Perhaps if your family was nearly wiped out of existence you would have a little more charity. My father’s was. This is not academic or about political correctness to me. I know what Anti-semtism is. I know what it looks like and I know the buzz words. It is amazing the things you hear when people assume you don’t have Jewish blood or you don’t look Jewish, and can say what they want in safe company. It is amazing how these conversations tend to start with words like “Zionist” and then goes down the path to more honest language. Does any of this sound familiar? It does to me.

You have raised completely unrelated issues and tied them to this one. You imply guilt by association (where there is one, btw) and wrapped it in the guise of “defending the faith”. Attacking Jews and trying to equate not being anti-Israel with being pro-gay and feminist is indefensible.

I am trying to be charitable, but I also don’t think the level of outrage is understood. Rebuke is often the greatest charity.

Mel
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Melchior,

With the greatest of respect, I can find nothing in that article that violates or contradicts either Church tradition or holy scripture. If I am wrong, then I pray I will be put right. All good catholics have a duty to defend and protect the church and its teachings - not to surrender it to its opponents. It is a disgrace the way the term “charity” is being misused and abused in this context.

Yours in Christ

Paul
 
Reformed1 said:
Where does Paul say that the OC is still in effect?
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Romans 11:
25: Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in,
26: and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27: “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28: As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
29: For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
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The Old Covenant is not binding for Salvation, but neither is it revoked.

Peace and God bless!
 
Why Zionism is anti catholic (and anti Christian IMHO) The basis is the Abrahamic covenant. In the OT the word “decendants” is used, (Gen 12:2, 15:5, 17:4-5, 18:18, 22:17 etc.) in each instance of the Abrhamic covenant.
Paul reinterprets this to say “offspring”:

Gal 3:16: Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many; but, referring to one, “And to your offspring,” which is Christ.
17: This is what I mean: the law, which came four hundred and thirty years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.
18: For if the inheritance is by the law, it is no longer by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

So Christ is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant according to Paul. He later uses an allegory to explain that the decendants of Abraham are the spiritual sons of faith, this is us:

Gal 5:22: For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave and one by a free woman.
23: But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, the son of the free woman through promise.
24: Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar.
25: Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26: But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

Now that we have established who the decendants are, contrary to the physical (and unbiblical) interpretation of dispensationaists. who is the real zion according to scripture:

Heb 12:22: But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
23: and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24: and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.

It is the heavenly Jerusalem which we enter every Mass, not the state of Israel, which is a man made Zion of the 21st century. To believe in that Zion instead of the one Christ brought us into is anti-scriptural.

Next to bring about the second coming, they wish to rebuild the temple for the lawless one to ascend, and for sacrifices to begin again. Rebuilding the temple in opposition to the temple which we now enter, revelation has this to say:

Rev 13:5: And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months;
6: it opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

When the real temple is this: Ergo they blaspheme the true temple by rebuilding the old one and mock Christs sacrifice to begin new sacrifices to sin.

1 Cor 3:16: Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?
17: If any one destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and that temple you are.

Eph 2:19: So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20: built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
21: in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord;
22: in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Ergo they blaspheme the true temple by rebuilding the old one and mock Christs sacrifice to begin new sacrifices to sin. As well as building the temple for the:

2 Thess:3: Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition,
4: who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

I would call that anti-christian and working for you know who.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
Will Israel be converted at the end? Yep

How we don’t know, but with God everything is possible.

Paul makes a distinction between Jews and Israel in Romans. In Chapter 11 he addresses Israel and their salvation.

Those groups of dispensationalists who are doing everything possible to get rid of the palestinians and recover land for Israel, including financing their deaths through Israeli politics, are doing this against God who will:

Rev 21:1: Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
2: And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband;

The temple they wish to build to bring about a false rapture (which is actually the perousia) idea is against Gods temple at the second coming:

1 Thess 4:13: But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.
14: For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
15: For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16: For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first;
17: then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up (Perousia in greek) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.

V14 is of note in whom he brings with him, contrary to dispensationalists who don’t believe the saints are in heaven and here they are in heaven, (v14): those baptized i.e. robes made clean by Christs sacrifice:

Rev 6:13: Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?”
14: I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15: Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night within his temple; and he who sits upon the throne will shelter them with his presence.

V16 of Thess 4 above, it says: For the Lord himself will descend from heaven. This is Christs second coming without doubt, not a disappearance of people until another coming. He is decending from heaven. And in the gospels he says he will do this only one time, not multiple times. And this verse they use for the rapture theory is clearly his second coming.

We will all be changed in the blink of an eye according to Paul, those dead and alive, given glorified bodies (Corinthians)

As I stated in the earlier post, it is a blasphemy against Gods true temple (Rev 13:5), (by building a new earthly temple) and against the covenant (which isn’t to be believed from Paul in Galatians apparently according to dispensationalists).

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
Melchior said:
…But you really need to stop using “Zionist” as an epithet, …20 years ago the word would have been “dirty” now it is just a more sophisticated slur, a clever euphemism. But make no mistakes it is a euphemism. …
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Interestingly, the word “anti-semitism” has taken on a distorted meaning also, largely because of groups like the ADL. If you want to attack someone, accusing them of being an antisemite is pretty effective these days.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
trth_skr said:
Interestingly, the word “anti-semitism” has taken on a distorted meaning also, largely because of groups like the ADL. If you want to attack someone, accusing them of being an antisemite is pretty effective these days.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
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Interestingly, that I made the same point about the ADL in an earlier post in the thread.
 
Ghosty said:
Romans 11:

The Old Covenant is not binding for Salvation, but neither is it revoked.

Peace and God bless!
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The scripture you posted:
28: As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
29: For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
appear to have anything to do with the OC. I am not aware of any biblical scholar equating the gifts and calling of God to the OC.

doesn’t have the OC in sight so I believe you have taken the verses out of context. I am not aware of any biblical commentary or any scripture that equates the gifts and calling of God to the OC. In fact, it wouldn’t make sense to have two covenants, one based on the law and one based on grace, active at the same time. How can one covenant bind us to the law and one not and both be active at the same time?

I would be interested in seeing how you can exegete the “gifts and calling of God” so that “gifts and calling” = old covenant.

Someone else posted a link to Sungenis’ website where he does an excellent job of showing from the scriptures that the OC was in fact revoked. Take a look at it and let me know what you think.
 
Nicene said:
Why Zionism is anti catholic (and anti Christian IMHO) The basis is the Abrahamic covenant. In the OT the word “decendants” is used, (Gen 12:2, 15:5, 17:4-5, 18:18, 22:17 etc.) in each instance of the Abrhamic covenant.
Paul reinterprets this to say “offspring”:

I would call that anti-christian and working for you know who.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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I guess there’s no point in stating for the umpteenth time that Zionism is an integral part of Judaism and from a Jewish point of view of course has nothing to do with Christianity.

That having been said, **did you just state that Jews and **Zionists are doing the devil’s work? If not who is the “you know who” in the above quote?
 
chosen_people said:
I guess there’s no point in stating for the umpteenth time that Zionism is an integral part of Judaism and from a Jewish point of view of course has nothing to do with Christianity.

That having been said, **did you just state that Jews and **Zionists are doing the devil’s work? If not who is the “you know who” in the above quote?
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We are speaking of Christian Zionists, not Israel. According to Romans 11, as I wrote above, catholics believe Israel is going to be saved, but Paul doesn’t elucidate on how.

Christian Zionism is not the work of God. You should be wary of them.

Think of it this way; They want to rebuild the temple to force the second coming of Christ and bring about the end of Israel and Christs thousand year millenial reign on earth. If I were a Jew, not someone I would wish to be “helping” me.

Anti-semite? Nope
Anti-dispensationalist? Yep

Through financing, dispensationalists are causing harm to Jews and Palestinians in the middle east all for a false notion. Thankfully Jews in Israel are becoming more wary of them because to their agenda.

Catholics aren’t the ones who are anti-semite. We are the ones who think God has a plan of fulfillment for them.

So please toss the anti-semite card at someone else instead of me (or catholics). It doesn’t play too well. I would be looking at the folks who are pumping money in, seeking the end of Israel; dispensationalists.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
From the Ask an Apologist forum:
Is Zionism Anti-Catholic?
Generally speaking, Jewish Zionism is a political movement that, before the establishment of the State of Israel, sought to establish a homeland for the Jewish people. Since the creation of the State of Israel in 1948, Jewish Zionism has mainly been support for the State of Israel. The Catholic Church has long been supportive of the existence of the State of Israel and, in 1994, established formal diplomatic relations with Israel.
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Christian Zionism, on the other hand, is mainly a Protestant phenomenon that has supported the establishment of a Jewish state because of the dispensationalist belief that this is necessary for the Christian conversion of the Jewish people and, ultimately, for the Second Coming of Christ. Christian Zionists were influential in the establishment of the State of Israel, but mainly for different reasons than were Jewish Zionists.
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As for Catholic teaching on the conversion of the Jews, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
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The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by “all Israel,” for “a hardening has come upon part of Israel” in their “unbelief” toward Jesus. St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: “Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old.” St. Paul echoes him: “For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?” The “full inclusion” of the Jews in the Messiah’s salvation, in the wake of “the full number of the Gentiles”, will enable the People of God to achieve “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,” in which “God may be all in all” (CCC 674).
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Recommended reading:

Israel and the Church by Jimmy Akin
The Corporate Conversion of Israel by Jimmy Akin
Waiting to be Raptured by Carl E. Olson
Salvation Is from the Jews by Roy H. Schoeman
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It seems, then, that Jewish Zionism and Christian Zionism are two different things. The former is a Jewish political movement, the latter is a Protestant dispensationalist movement. Therefore, it appears that a Catholic could fully support the former, while opposing the latter.
 
That having been said, **did you just state that Jews and **Zionists are doing the devil’s work? If not who is the “you know who” in the above quote?
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In fact I staed no such thing about the Jews, go read it again. Are you putting words in my mouth? Is this the sort of honesty and integrity we can expect?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
The_Iambic_Pen said:
From the Ask an Apologist forum:
Is Zionism Anti-Catholic?

It seems, then, that Jewish Zionism and Christian Zionism are two different things. The former is a Jewish political movement, the latter is a Protestant dispensationalist movement. Therefore, it appears that a Catholic could fully support the former, while opposing the latter.
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/nod

Support of Israel and peace is integral to that part of the region. However Christian Zionism and Jewish Zionism are diametrically opposed on theologic grounds, within christianity. Christian Zionism is foolishness that is getting people killed, Jews and Palestinians, and ferments war, not peace.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
Jews are not “antiCatholic”. They are not taught that if you don’t believe and think what we do you will be damned forever in Hell.
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Lets see if that is true:
These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles.
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Sounds reasonable, except:

Catholics accused of:
*2) not to commit blasphemy;
3) not to commit idolatry; *
Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come."
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The last statement is opposed to your first.

That’s called irony.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
My point concerning Christian Zionism?
Beware the Brutus in your midst.

From a catholic point of view with regard to how much land Jews get or don’t get is irrelevant to us theologically. What is relevant is support for Israel as a nation, regardless of what they think is a birthright, and stability and peace in the region.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
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