Zionism Anti-Catholic???

[chosen_people]

Lets see if that is true:

Sounds reasonable, except:

Catholics accused of:
*2) not to commit blasphemy;
3) not to commit idolatry; *

The last statement is opposed to your first.

That’s called irony.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

1. You still haven’t answered my question concerning who is “you know who” in your post and who is doing “you know who"s” work. I assure you that I ask the question in good faith and that there is no need for you to impugn my “integrity”. I presume that I do not understand your meaning and therefore ask you to explain.
2. Jews and Judaism do not “accuse” Catholics of blasphemy or of commiting idolatry. Jews do not think that people, including Christians of all faiths, who do not share their beliefs are damned. Jews do not think that you must be converted to the Jewish religion to be a good human being and to go to heaven. I believe the problem in your accepting that is two fold. First, Christianity as opposed to Judaism, is dogmatic, we ask “what do Catholics believe?” (see the many posts at this web site). The dogma of Judaism may be summed up as “Hear O Israel the Lord our G-d the Lord is One” and “Love they neighbour as thyself”. As Hillel said “everything else is commentary”. When speaking of the Jewish religion we should not ask what Jews believe, as we would with a Catholic, but what do Jews think. The second thing to remember is that Judaism preceeded both Christianity and Islam. Both Christianity and Islam which grew out of Jewish monotheistic concepts believed the Jews would adopt their new religion. When they did not both religions became “preoccupied” (to put it mildly) with the Jews for not adopting their beliefs (Islam also has a “preoccupation” with Christianity). Judaism. as the earlier religion’ did not undergo this process.

 

[Nicene]

1. You still haven’t answered my question concerning who is “you know who” in your post and who is doing “you know who"s” work. I assure you that I ask the question in good faith and that there is no need for you to impugn my “integrity”. I presume that I do not understand your meaning and therefore ask you to explain.

You know exactly who I think is influecing war. Satan. If you believe you are killing on behalf of God, think again.

1. Jews and Judaism do not “accuse” Catholics of blasphemy or of commiting idolatry. Jews do not think that people, including Christians of all faiths, who do not share their beliefs are damned. Jews do not think that you must be converted to the Jewish religion to be a good human being and to go to heaven. I believe the problem in your accepting that is two fold. First, Christianity as opposed to Judaism, is dogmatic, we ask “what do Catholics believe?” (see the many posts at this web site). The dogma of Judaism may be summed up as "Hear O Israel the Lord our G-d the Lord is One"

The bolded pretty much sums up Jewish belief of christianity. Point blank, Is Jesus God?

We believe he is.

and “Love they neighbour as thyself”.

No dispute here. So in accordance to loving your neighbor are you going to promote not ejecting Palestianis from the land and their homes, bulldozing towns, and making new artificial borders?

Is what you are doing any different than those you oppose? Instead of trusting in God (under your theology) you are going to take it into your own hands to get the land and expel others at any cost, even their lives? It certainly shows a lack of trust in the ability of God to fulfill his covenant, from a Jewish point of view.

As Hillel said “everything else is commentary”. When speaking of the Jewish religion we should not ask what Jews believe, as we would with a Catholic, but what do Jews think.

Avoiding what you think about Jesus Christ being God in the monotheistic schema (sinse you are bringing the theologic view to the fore here) and where Christians belong in that schema apparently is central to the Jewish view of salvation i.e. idolatry and false Gods.

The second thing to remember is that Judaism preceeded both Christianity and Islam. Both Christianity and Islam which grew out of Jewish monotheistic concepts believed the Jews would adopt their new religion.

Again wrong. The first christians (Jews as a matter of fact) did not believe they would adopt their “new religion” but hoped they would. The first sentence above in the quote seems triumphalistic.

When they did not both religions became “preoccupied” (to put it mildly) with the Jews for not adopting their beliefs (Islam also has a “preoccupation” with Christianity). Judaism. as the earlier religion’ did not undergo this process.

And it wasn’t their preoccupation (to put it mildly) with Jewish-Christians that they adopt their view in the first centuries and finally ejecting from synogogues, killing some of them, and handing over others to the romans? Be honest.

The glove fits on both hands. (waits for the anti-semite accusation bell to ring again)

And in that vein of honesty, Israel has absolute right to sovereighnty, but not at the expense of others, particularly not on theologic grounds (the excuse for the land grab) when taking it into their own hands to fulfill Gods promise (from a Jewish point of view) instead of letting God fulfill his promise himself.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Karl_Keating]

The only country in the middle east where the Christian community has grown and not declined is in Israel.

Could you provide references for this claim?

There are Catholic charitable organizations, working in Israel to assist Christians living there, that state in their promotional literature that in recent decades the Christian population of Israel has fallen substantially and that some towns that once were chiefly Christian today are not so.

If, in fact, the numbers indicate otherwise and the Christian population actually is growing, it would be good to have reliable sources for that information.

Thanks.

 

[Nicene]

You still haven’t answered the objection posed in post #50, which you quoted above in post #53. Neatly avoided though. Care to answer it now?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Augustine22]

Christian populations in Israel/Middle East:

Some of these are Jewish sources (not all), but ones that seem reasonably respectable. Some of this information may have certain biases but this at least brings out certain statistics and trends to consider. The first link is to the Central Bureau of Statistics.

It looks, based on these at least, as though the Christian population of Israel has slightly increased. However, it has decreased markedly in Muslim-controlled areas like Bethlehem and Nazareth, etc. Again, at least based on this info.

Basically, I just googled the information. So, no pretense at heavy scholarship.

cbs.gov.il/hodaot2004/01_04_342e.htm

christianactionforisrael.org/medigest/jan99/backgrnd.html

meforum.org/article/487

frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=11477

worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53574

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethlehem#Demographic_change

danielpipes.org/article/2534

ujc.org/content_display.html?ArticleID=150914

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/arabs/christianme1.html

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/arabs/christianme.html

jcpa.org/jl/vp490.htm

palestinefacts.org/pf_current_christians.php

 

[chosen_people]

Could you provide references for this claim?

There are Catholic charitable organizations, working in Israel to assist Christians living there, that state in their promotional literature that in recent decades the Christian population of Israel has fallen substantially and that some towns that once were chiefly Christian today are not so.

If, in fact, the numbers indicate otherwise and the Christian population actually is growing, it would be good to have reliable sources for that information.

Thanks.

glad to help though another post gives several sources:

www1.cbs.gov.il/shnaton57/st02_01.pdf

cbs-central bureau of statistics - statistical abstract of Israel. It shows the populations by religion from the beginning of the state until today.

In the areas of Judea and Samaria where control has been relinquished to the Palestinian Authority, such as Bethlehem, there has been to the best of my understanding a decline in the Christian population, and I believe this is the source of your query. This effect seems to repeat itself throughout areas outside of Israel that were former Christian conclaves. The most egregious example is the decimation of the Christian population of Southern Lebanon by Yasser Arafat when he set up Fatah Land" in the 1970’s after the failed rebellion against King Hussein of Jordan. For a first hand eyewitness account from a Christian source see: americancongressfortruth.com/

The position of the Christian community in the moslem Arab world has always been somewhat tenuous, with the Christian’s loyalty being brought into question. This has caused some Christians to react by being “more Catholic than the Pope”. A good example of this is George Habash, a Christian, whose terror group is one of the most radical.

The Christian community in Israel lives peaceably with the other communities making up Israel’s population. It has the highest percentage of Highschool pupils matriculating and a high economic status. All the branches of the Christian faith enjoy full freedom of worship and Israel meticuously protects all the Holy sites and instutions sacred to Christendom.

 

[chosen_people]

You know exactly who I think is influecing war. Satan. If you believe you are killing on behalf of God, think again.

I’m still not sure whether you think all the Jews are doing the work of Satan, all the Zionists whom are Jewish are doing the work of Satan or whether just the Christian Zionists are doing the work of Satan. In as much as you are refering to me, as both a Jew and as a Zionist and as an Israeli, I can only accept your statement with compassion and love. To show you there are no hard feelings, if you are ever in Israel both You and your family are invited over to my house to feel my horns.

Just joking with you. It must be the “devil” in me.

]

 

[Valke2]

And in that vein of honesty, Israel has absolute right to sovereighnty, but not at the expense of others, particularly not on theologic grounds (the excuse for the land grab) when taking it into their own hands to fulfill Gods promise (from a Jewish point of view) instead of letting God fulfill his promise himself.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

If it is an absolute right, than it is a right at the expense of others, if necessary. Why is it that Israel is the only country expected not to take action to secure its borders and right to existence, but rather to sit back and wait for God to hand them the land?

 

[chosen_people]

, .

The bolded pretty much sums up Jewish belief of christianity. Point blank, Is Jesus God?

We believe he is.

Avoiding what you think about Jesus Christ being God in the monotheistic schema (sinse you are bringing the theologic view to the fore here) and where Christians belong in that schema apparently is central to the Jewish view of salvation i.e. idolatry and false Gods.

reply:

I explained that Judaism is not anti Catholic and that Jews do not believe that Catholics are damned if they do not believe as Jews do. I gave you the source and quotation. In reply, using Christian theology, you explained to me that that was not what Jews believed?!!!

You talk about Jews and salvation, again a Christian concept in as much as it is based on the concept of original sin, something totally foreign to Jewish theology. If your refering to Messianic Judaism, that exists but its hardly mainstream and they do not share your vision as to Messianic era.

The Christian preoccupation with Jews: We appear constantly in the Christian “scheme of things”. The belief that at the end of time all the Jews will accept Jesus or the beliefs regarding the return to the land of Israel and the gathering up of the Jews etc.

Now, Please Please Please don’t be hurt or upset but Christians don’t appear in the Jewish “scheme of things” not once, not even an honourable mention, nada, zip nothing.

On ther one hand we’ve got it real easy. We don’t have to convert you, or save your souls or support you or support your enemies.

On the other hand You as non Jews get into the world to come pretty easy by following those 7 Noachide commandments I mentioned. We Jews have to strain a lot more.

That is the true meaning of being the “chosen people” from the Jewish perspective. It doesn’t make you superior, it just brings with it obligations that non Jews are exempt from.

However, again I receive with love and compassion your superior understanding of Judaism and our beliefs. I may have
3,000 years of Judaisim behind me but you have Robert Sungenis.

]

 

[chosen_people]

And it wasn’t their preoccupation (to put it mildly) with Jewish-Christians that they adopt their view in the first centuries and finally ejecting from synogogues, killing some of them, and handing over others to the romans? Be honest.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

reply

During the first Century of the common era the Jews made up one tenth of the population of the Roman empire. They were granted a “privi lege” (above the law - our word privilege comes from here) that exempted them from participating in the ceremony of worshiping the emperor. Christians were not exempt and when they refused to participate in the ceremony the Romans put them on display and fed the Christians to the lions.

Hunting, bullfighting, cockfighting are an anathema to Jews. I doubt if Jews were in the audience watching people being eaten alive.

In an attempt to seperate Christianity from Judaism, Christian priests began to make rules against the Jews. It became a sin to have both a Rabbi and a Priest to bless your fields. This grew to rules prohibiting Christians dining with Jews or working with them. Christian antisemitism began to take shape. With the conversion of the Roman emperor to Christianity these rules were enhanced, codified and became the law. With the dark ages and the fall of the western Roman empire their force grew stronger still. They have led to mass murders of Jews, forced conversions, forced expulsions. (This is just the stupid stuff they teach at University, I like your explanation better that antisemitism and all the terrible things done to the Jews by Christians over the past two millenium is a result of kicking someone out of synagogue during the first century of the common era after he converted to Christianity - still don’t you think that even Tony Soprano might feel sufficiently revenged).

 

[chosen_people]

No dispute here. So in accordance to loving your neighbor are you going to promote not ejecting Palestianis from the land and their homes, bulldozing towns, and making new artificial borders?

Is what you are doing any different than those you oppose? Instead of trusting in God (under your theology) you are going to take it into your own hands to get the land and expel others at any cost, even their lives? It certainly shows a lack of trust in the ability of God to fulfill his covenant, from a Jewish point of view.

And in that vein of honesty, Israel has absolute right to sovereighnty, but not at the expense of others, particularly not on theologic grounds (the excuse for the land grab) when taking it into their own hands to fulfill Gods promise (from a Jewish point of view) instead of letting God fulfill his promise himself.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

reply

Simon said to him in reply: “We have not seized any foreign land; what we took is not the property of others, but our ancestral heritage which for a time had been unjustly held by our enemies.
Now that we have the opportunity, we are holding on to the heritage of our ancestors.”

First Maccabees Chapter 15 verses 33 - 34, New American Bible

 

[Reformed1]

reply

Simon said to him in reply: “We have not seized any foreign land; what we took is not the property of others, but our ancestral heritage which for a time had been unjustly held by our enemies.
Now that we have the opportunity, we are holding on to the heritage of our ancestors.”

First Maccabees Chapter 15 verses 33 - 34, New American Bible

Israel had no right to the land that forms its current borders.

C’mon, do you seriously want to argue that because Israel owned the land 2 millenium ago that gives them a claim to the land now?

 

[Valke2]

Israel had no right to the land that forms its current borders.

C’mon, do you seriously want to argue that because Israel owned the land 2 millenium ago that gives them a claim to the land now?

Do you seriously want to argue that Israel does not have the right to the land now? If so, on what do you base your argument?

 

[chosen_people]

Israel had no right to the land that forms its current borders.

C’mon, do you seriously want to argue that because Israel owned the land 2 millenium ago that gives them a claim to the land now?

What gives the right to any country to exist? What right do you have to live where you do?

We can examine historical rights

We can examine the right of force

We can examine international agreement

We can examine the right to self determination of a people

We can examine majority will of the people living there

However if you do you will discover that not only does Israel and the Jewish people have a right to their land but no other nation on earth has more of a right

The mistake we Zionists made was the belief that with the renewal of our sovreignty over our land that the Jews would be accepted as any other nation. We totally underestimated the depths of Christian antisemitism and the preoccupation with the Jews.

I look at some of the comments on this web site, the antisemitism and the anti Zionism and I thank G-d anew for the State of Israel.

 

[Reformed1]

Do you seriously want to argue that Israel does not have the right to the land now? If so, on what do you base your argument?

Maybe we should re-establish the borders of all nations as they were 2 millenia ago…yeah, that sounds like a grand idea.

I don’t believe Israel has any scriptural right to the land nor do I believe that it was wise to establish Israel as a politcal entity/nation state.

 

[chosen_people]

Maybe we should re-establish the borders of all nations as they were 2 millenia ago…yeah, that sounds like a grand idea.

I don’t believe Israel has any scriptural right to the land nor do I believe that it was wise to establish Israel as a politcal entity/nation state.

Well look on the bright side. If there was no Israel, we might be neighbours and what with the ACLU and the Neocons and all our smart lawyers you might be forced to let my family join your country club and then where would you be.

 

[Church_Militant]

I think that one would have a tough time making a case against Israeli statehood based on historical evidence (if the Bible is taken as history.)

I have no problems with Israel doing what they do. I think for Americans to talk smack about them is sort of hypocritical since we do what we please…why shouldn’t other nations?

I don’t think that Zionism is anti-Catholic, tho there may be some individuals that are both.

IMO Israel has a right to not only exist but to protect itself and its citizens as much as any other nation.

One needs to understand that all Christianity is considered blasphemy by orthodox Jews. That is unavoidable and I do not take offense at that. I have a very close Hassidic friend and our relationship has been very very informative and charitable. It has greatly increased my understanding of Judaism, and I’m glad of it.

 

[Church_Militant]

Well look on the bright side. If there was no Israel, we might be neighbours and what with the ACLU and the Neocons and all our smart lawyers you might be forced to let my family join your country club and then where would you be.

[SIGN]Welcome neighbor![/SIGN]

 

[Nicene]

Nicene;1856571:

You know exactly who I think is influecing war. Satan. If you believe you are killing on behalf of God, think again.

I’m still not sure whether you think all the Jews are doing the work of Satan, all the Zionists whom are Jewish are doing the work of Satan or whether just the Christian Zionists are doing the work of Satan. In as much as you are refering to me, as both a Jew and as a Zionist and as an Israeli, I can only accept your statement with compassion and love. To show you there are no hard feelings, if you are ever in Israel both You and your family are invited over to my house to feel my horns.

Just joking with you. It must be the “devil” in me.

I think I stated it pretty clearly "You know exactly who I think is influecing war" Though it is a sign of a poor lawyer (and even worse apologist) to insinuate that I said you were the devil. Don’t you ever get tired of the same old ploy? It wore thin a looooong time ago. Update: Satan influences Christians as well. But I knew you were joking. One of the ten suggestions right?

But to clarify, if it won’t hurt too much, if Zionists (Jewish or Christian) employing and invoking God to promote their agenda, think they are doing the work of God, they are dead wrong.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Nicene]

I explained that Judaism is not anti Catholic and that Jews do not believe that Catholics are damned if they do not believe as Jews do. I gave you the source and quotation. In reply, using Christian theology, you explained to me that that was not what Jews believed?!!!

Still waiting for you to answer posts #50 and #53 and how you reconcile those two contradictory beliefs. Nicely avoided again though.

As for me it really doesn’t matter for one reason:

1 Cor 4:3: But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself.
4: I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.

But your answer does apply towards intellectual honesty

You talk about Jews and salvation, again a Christian concept in as much as it is based on the concept of original sin, something totally foreign to Jewish theology. If your refering to Messianic Judaism, that exists but its hardly mainstream and they do not share your vision as to Messianic era.

The Christian preoccupation with Jews: We appear constantly in the Christian “scheme of things”. The belief that at the end of time all the Jews will accept Jesus or the beliefs regarding the return to the land of Israel and the gathering up of the Jews etc.

No offense but in terms of salvation, Jews are no more a blip on my radar than anyone else. However politically christians supporting Zionism for some foolish theology is reprehensible and is getting people killed. You are giving yourself too much credit.

Now, Please Please Please don’t be hurt or upset but Christians don’t appear in the Jewish “scheme of things” not once, not even an honourable mention, nada, zip nothing.

Doesn’t matter to me a whit, that’s your preoccupation.

On ther one hand we’ve got it real easy. We don’t have to convert you, or save your souls or support you or support your enemies.

Left theology here and went into politics. Therefore you shouldn’t cry foul and anti-semitism if no one wants to help you conquer territory, right?

On the other hand You as non Jews get into the world to come pretty easy by following those 7 Noachide commandments I mentioned. We Jews have to strain a lot more.

That is the true meaning of being the “chosen people” from the Jewish perspective. It doesn’t make you superior, it just brings with it obligations that non Jews are exempt from.

Sounds like the catholic catechism to me, glad to see it’s precepts being adopted.

However, again I receive with love and compassion your superior understanding of Judaism and our beliefs. I may have
3,000 years of Judaisim behind me but you have Robert Sungenis.

Never read him, however from what I understand he is an anti-semite. And as predicted:

(waits for the anti-semite accusation bell to ring again)

However I am not the one ejecting people from my country and taking land because they are not of my race, am I now?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

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