“Late Pope Could Be Saint Soon.” How? WHY?

[tee_eff_em]

Even when things *are *what they seem, or at least closer to it than we might like, it has been and remains remarkably unfair to judge those involved using 21st century hindsight.

There was a time, not too long ago, when an incontinent priest were treated as any other sinner, and offered forgiveness.

Then there was a time, even more recently, when experts in psychology said “These men are ill. Let us treat them, then you can return them to ministry”

Then, still more recently, the experts said “Um, remember what we said before, about treatment and return to ministry? Yeah, we were too hasty when we said that”

:twocents:
tee
Who wonders how people 40 years from now will judge our behaviors today

 

[pnewton]

Is his reputation so fragile it will shatter into smithereens if he is criticised ? That’s another reason why there is a canonical process

I am confident that the process, done by proper authorities, will be both critical and fair. What I do not understand is why we Americans like to stand and look at things from our own unique perspective, without all the evidence before us, and play the role of the devil’s advocate. If I wanted to be on the devil’s side, I’d have been an attorney.

edited (forgot the smilie for the attorney joke.)

 

[mlchance]

Please look again at the three scandals that Pope John Paul II failed to address adequately.

In nothing more than your opinion, which has absolutely no bearing on the question of John Paul II’s canonization.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[bones_IV]

I’d like to thank Sir Knight for drawing our attention to the powerful words of St. Francis de Sales.

We should never allow ***any ***scandal in the Church to destroy our faith.

Keep and spread the Faith.

If it had been me, these bishops would be in the Monastery doing LONG LINES OF PENANCE. But that’s just me. John Paul II made tremendous reforms in the seminaries. I think Mr. O’ Brien, that you have a serious problem and are attempting to make yourself more holier than the Church. Don’t be prideful. I hope you will recognize the Church for what it is, a hospital of sinners. What happens when they do canonize him? Will you turn around and leave the Church?

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

In nothing more than your opinion, which has absolutely no bearing on the question of John Paul II’s canonization.

Please tell that to the parents of boys who were sexually abused by priests during the pontificate of Pope John Paul II.

Those Catholics who are old enough and secure enough in their faith to do so should watch the PBS documentary Hand of God:

pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/handofgod/

Again, only if you’re old enough and secure enough in your faith.

***All ***Catholics, however, should study what the Church teaches about scandal in the catechism that John Paul II himself promulgated. Please see sections 2284-2287.

Please don’t listen to me. Listen to the Church as she speaks through the new catechism.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[st_lucy]

Please tell that to the parents of boys who were sexually abused by priests during the pontificate of Pope John Paul II.

Those Catholics who are old enough and secure enough in their faith to do so should watch the PBS documentary Hand of God:

pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/handofgod/

Again, only if you’re old enough and secure enough in your faith.

***All ***Catholics, however, should study what the Church teaches about scandal in the catechism that John Paul II himself promulgated. Please see sections 2284-2287.

Please don’t listen to me. Listen to the Church as she speaks through the new catechism.

Keep and spread the Faith.

I don’t think that anyone is saying that those priest that did these horrible injustices are innocent. No just the opposite. But right now you are saying that they are all the fault of the Pope who may or may not of known of these acts. What is getting to me is that you are sitting on the throne right now judging the Pope. (Did Jesus step away for a second?) It is not the place of us mere humans to judge we are just as guilty as the JPII for we all sinners. And where there is sin there is the horrors of evil.

Lets work on our own soul before we sit around judging others.

 

[bones_IV]

Please tell that to the parents of boys who were sexually abused by priests during the pontificate of Pope John Paul II.

Those Catholics who are old enough and secure enough in their faith to do so should watch the PBS documentary Hand of God:

pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/handofgod/

Again, only if you’re old enough and secure enough in your faith.

***All ***Catholics, however, should study what the Church teaches about scandal in the catechism that John Paul II himself promulgated. Please see sections 2284-2287.

Please don’t listen to me. Listen to the Church as she speaks through the new catechism.

Keep and spread the Faith.

You have issues.

 

[pnewton]

Please tell that to the parents of boys who were sexually abused by priests during the pontificate of Pope John Paul II.

And during the presidency of Clinton, two Bushes, Reagan, Ford, Nixon. So?

First, not all of this happened during the time of JPII and then much only came to light decades later. Second, I wouldbe happy to tell anyone that it has no bearing on his canonization. The victims are not scrutinzed, nor or the priest. Only one man. Yes, there was a scandal involving priest in a few countries of the hundreds where the Church is, and yes, the some of bishops of those countries screwed up. It has no morally bearing on the man JPII.

If some victim wanted to see the canonization denied because of his personal injury, I would be happy to suggest that he build a bridge and get over it. If that doesn’t word, seek therapy, but don’t be stupid. Perhaps that is why I am not a counsellor.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

And during the presidency of Clinton, two Bushes, Reagan, Ford, Nixon. So?

First, not all of this happened during the time of JPII and then much only came to light decades later. Second, I would be happy to tell anyone that it has no bearing on his canonization. The victims are not scrutinzed, nor or the priest. Only one man. Yes, there was a scandal involving priests in a few countries of the hundreds where the Church is, and yes, some of the bishops of those countries screwed up. It has no moral bearing on the man JPII.

If some victim wanted to see the canonization denied because of his personal injury, I would be happy to suggest that he build a bridge and get over it. If that doesn’t work, seek therapy, but don’t be stupid. Perhaps that is why I am not a counsellor.

It was not an American President who, on May 27, 2004, gave Cardinal Bernard Law of Boston the honor of being named the archpriest of the Basilica of St. Mary Major in Rome. This happened despite the fact that the attorney general of Massachusetts had found that, during Cardinal Law’s tenure, a total of 48 priests and other employees of the cardinal may have committed the sin of sexual abuse against minors. The person who conferred this honor on Cardinal Law was Pope John Paul II:

boston.com/news/local/articles/2004/05/28/pope_names_law_to_ceremonial_position_in_rome/

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Sir_Knight]

So if someone seeks forgiveness for their offenses, the Pope is not to grant it? How does that match up with the teachings of Christ to forgive our brother not seven times but seventy times seven?

With regards to Cardinal Bernard Law of Boston and Pope John Paul II naming him the archpriest of the Basilica of St. Mary Major in Rome … answer me this – did Jesus act incorrectly for not taking the keys of the kingdom away from Peter when Peter betrayed Christ?

When you forgive, you SHOULD forgive completely. That’s what Jesus did and that’s what Pope John Paul II did.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

So if someone seeks forgiveness for their offenses, the Pope is not to grant it? How does that match up with the teachings of Christ to forgive our brother not seven times but seventy times seven?

With regards to Cardinal Bernard Law of Boston and Pope John Paul II naming him the archpriest of the Basilica of St. Mary Major in Rome … answer me this – did Jesus act incorrectly for not taking the keys of the kingdom away from Peter when Peter betrayed Christ?

When you forgive, you SHOULD forgive completely. That’s what Jesus did and that’s what Pope John Paul II did.

Since St. Peter was sorry for what he had done and Cardinal Law was sorry for what he had allowed to be done, every Catholic, imitating God himself, must forgive them. Of course.

Nonetheless, there is a big difference between granting forgiveness and granting a new honor in addition to someone’s current office in the Church. Sometimes, granting a new honor to the forgiven sinner should be ruled out because of the scandal that may ensue. This was the situation in the case of Cardinal Law.

People may well ask themselves: “Just how seriously does the Catholic Church take the sexual abuse of minors if she now gives this honor to Cardinal Law?”

Again, please see CCC 2284-2287.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Sir_Knight]

And I refer you to scripture … didn’t Jesus bestow upon Peter and the rest of the Apostles (who were also guilty of abandoning our Lord) additional honor and authority AFTER they deserted Him?

If it was correct for Jesus to do that, why is it incorrect for JPII to follow that SAME example?

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

And I refer you to scripture … didn’t Jesus bestow upon Peter and the rest of the Apostles (who were also guilty of abandoning our Lord) additional honor and authority AFTER they deserted Him?

If it was correct for Jesus to do that, why is it incorrect for JPII to follow that SAME example?

No, Jesus merely confirmed the honor and authority that Peter and the other Apostles already possessed. Jesus did nothing that could be interpreted as minimizing their abandonment of him during his arrest and crucifixion.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Sir_Knight]

No, Jesus merely confirmed the honor and authority that Peter and the other Apostles already possessed.

Peter denied Jesus in John 18 and we see in John 20, Jesus giving the Apostles the authority to forgive sins. Authority which they did not posses prior to abandoning Him. Peter was given authority to bind and loosen but the other apostles did not have the authority to forgive sins until AFTER they abandoned Him.

Jesus did nothing that could be interpreted as minimizing their abandonment of him during his arrest and crucifixion.

Except for keeping them as His witnesses and granting them ADDITIONAL authority (see above).

When Jesus forgave, He forgave completely.

 

[chicago]

Nonetheless, there is a big difference between granting forgiveness and granting a new honor in addition to someone’s current office in the Church. Sometimes, granting a new honor to the forgiven sinner should be ruled out because of the scandal that may ensue. This was the situation in the case of Cardinal Law.

People may well ask themselves: “Just how seriously does the Catholic Church take the sexual abuse of minors if she now gives this honor to Cardinal Law?”

The way in which that position is perceived in Rome does not carry the same signifigant sense that we have of it here in the U.S., viewing the matter from afar and decontextualized. The reality is that it was understood to be a “bide your time out of the way” demotion assignment from his previous heading of a major Archdiocese. Now, ought to Vatican to have better apppreciated how Americans would perceive it? Perhaps. But understanding cultural differences is something which cuts both ways and failing to fully appreciate them shouldn’t ultimately be an indicator of whether or not someone has succeeded or failed in excercizing heroic virtue.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

Peter denied Jesus in John 18 and we see in John 20, Jesus giving the Apostles the authority to forgive sins. Authority which they did not possess prior to abandoning Him. Peter was given authority to bind and loosen but the other apostles did not have the authority to forgive sins until AFTER they abandoned Him.

Except for keeping them as His witnesses and granting them ADDITIONAL authority (see above).

When Jesus forgave, He forgave completely.

The ***explicit ***authority that Jesus granted to the Apostles in Jn 20:22-23 for remitting sins he had already accorded to them ***implicitly ***prior to their abandonment of him. This grant of authority occurs in Mt 18:18, on which occasion the Apostles received the power to “bind” and “loose.”

Please see Edward J. Hanna’s article on the sacrament of Penance in The Catholic Encyclopedia:

newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Scottgun]

The complaining about JPII’s canonization has changed my opinion–before I was against it. Now I’m all for it. Amazing how that works.

Scott

 

[Eliza10]

It was not an American President who, on May 27, 2004, gave Cardinal Bernard Law of Boston the honor of being named the archpriest of the Basilica of St. Mary Major in Rome. This happened despite the fact that the attorney general of Massachusetts had found that, during Cardinal Law’s tenure, a total of 48 priests and other employees of the cardinal may have committed the sin of sexual abuse against minors. The person who conferred this honor on Cardinal Law was Pope John Paul II:

boston.com/news/local/articles/2004/05/28/pope
_names_law_to_ceremonial_position_in_rome/

Yes, this is troubling. What was Pope John Paul II thinking? Could he possibly have been acting as Christ himself would act?

The worldly part of us wants to see Cardinal Law punished. His actions and non-actions contributed to horrendous sin and scandal.

Did John Paul II give him an appointment where such misjudgments could not possbily be made? Sounds like a good move. From a worldlypoint of view, it does seem wrong he gets a nice apartment and nice job.

But, what would Jesus do?

Jesus had Judas, and He kept him with Him the whole time. He never kicked him out of the fold. Judas, the Cain of God, was so corrupt that even the most loving, most wise, most omnicient teaching still didn’t convert him! Even the blood-sweat and tears and prayers of the Son of God didn’t move Judas’ heart to conversion.

Judas was so bad that probably whatever job Jesus gave him, Judas would have corrupted. Preaching would be especially scandalous. Jesus gave him the responsibility of keeping track of the offerings to disperse to the poor. But Judas stole!

Yet, Jesus din’t *laicize *him!

Yet, Jesus still gave him the honor of sitting with him at the Last Supper table.

So the world looks on puzzled, but, God’s ways are not our ways.

 

[Eliza10]

…Let’s honor John Paul II by studying his catechism and using it to defend and spread the Faith… But let’s not try to defend John Paul II’s approach to the daily governance of the Church. It just can’t be defended.

Keep and spread the Faith.

I don’t like the way you are spreading the faith. You are tearing it down!

What makes you think you can be the judge of JPII’s daily governance of the Church?

Its arrogant.

It doesn’t build or spread the faith.
Find something good and right and true and beautiful.
Spread that.

 

[Eliza10]

CHRIST’S DIVINE LOVE, WISDOM AND POWER
NEVER ATTACK A PRIEST
“Jesus, Mary, I love You, Save Souls.”
CRITICISM OF PRIESTS

Our Lord’s revelations to Mutter Vogel
“One should NEVER attack a priest, even when he’s in error, rather one should pray and do penance that I’ll grant him My grace again. He alone fully represents Me, even when he doesn’t live after My example!” (page 29, Mutter Vogel’s Worldwide Love, St. Grignion Publishing House, Altoting, South Germany (29. 6. 1929)).
When a Priest falls we should extend him a helping hand THROUGH PRAYER AND NOT THROUGH ATTACKS! “I myself will be his judge, NO ONE BUT I!” “Whoever voices judgment over a priest has voiced it over Me; child, never let a Priest be attacked, take up his defense.” (Feast of Christ the King 1937) "Child, Never judge your confessor, rather pray much for him and offer every Thursday, through the hands of My blessed Mother, Holy Communion (for Him) (18.6. 1939)&nsp; “Never again accept an out-of-the-way word about a Priest, and speak no unkind word (about them) EVEN IF IT WERE TRUE! Every Priest is My Vicar and My heart will be sickened and insulted because of it! If you hear a judgment (against a Priest) pray a Hail Mary.” (28. 6. 1939)
“If you see a Priest who celebrates the Holy Mass unworthily then say nothing about him, rather tell it to Me alone! I stand beside him on the altar!” “Oh pray much for My priests, that they’ll love purity above all, that they’ll celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass with pure hands and heart. Certainly the Holy Sacrifice is one and the same even when it is celebrated by an unworthy priest, but the graces called down upon the people is not the same!” (28. 2. 1938)
Mary. Queen of the Clergy, pray for them.