“Late Pope Could Be Saint Soon.” How? WHY?

[Eliza10]

LITANY OF HUMILITY

(for private devotion only)
Which His Eminence Cardinal Merry del Val was accustomed to recite daily after the celebration of Holy Mass.

O Jesus! meek and humble of heart, hear me
From the desire of being esteemed,
From the desire of being loved,
From the desire of being extolled,
From the desire of being honored,
From the desire of being praised,
From the desire of being preferred,
From the desire of being consulted,
From the desire of being approved,
Deliver me, Jesus.
From the fear of being humiliated,
From the fear of being despised,
From the fear of suffering rebukes,
From the fear of being calumniated,
From the fear of being forgotten,
From the fear of being ridiculed,
From the fear of being wronged,
From the fear of being suspected,
Deliver me, Jesus.
That others may be loved more than I,
That others may be esteemed more than I,
That in the opinion of the world, others may increase,and I may decrease,
That others may be chosen and I set aside,
That others may be praised and I unnoticed,
That others may be preferred to me in everything,
That others become holier than I, provided that I maybecome as holy as I should,
J**esus, grant me the grace to desire it.
Imprimatur: + James A. McNulty - Bishop of Paterson, N.J.

 

[Eliza10]

I want to add that the honor Jesus gave Judas (who was far worse than Cardinal Law, or anyone) - the unspeakable honor of sitting with Him at the Last Supper table, makes the honor JPII gave Law, the post of Archpriest of a Basilica, pale into nothingness!

So as far as imitating Christ, you could argue JPII did not bestow enough honor on the sinner!

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

CHRIST’S DIVINE LOVE, WISDOM AND POWER
NEVER ATTACK A PRIEST
“Jesus, Mary, I love You, Save Souls.”
CRITICISM OF PRIESTS

Our Lord’s revelations to Mutter Vogel
“One should NEVER attack a priest, even when he’s in error, rather one should pray and do penance that I’ll grant him My grace again. He alone fully represents Me, even when he doesn’t live after My example!” (page 29, Mutter Vogel’s Worldwide Love, St. Grignion Publishing House, Altoting, South Germany (29. 6. 1929)).
When a Priest falls we should extend him a helping hand THROUGH PRAYER AND NOT THROUGH ATTACKS! “I myself will be his judge, NO ONE BUT I!” “Whoever voices judgment over a priest has voiced it over Me; child, never let a Priest be attacked, take up his defense.” (Feast of Christ the King 1937) "Child, Never judge your confessor, rather pray much for him and offer every Thursday, through the hands of My blessed Mother, Holy Communion (for Him) (18.6. 1939)&nsp; “Never again accept an out-of-the-way word about a Priest, and speak no unkind word (about them) EVEN IF IT WERE TRUE! Every Priest is My Vicar and My heart will be sickened and insulted because of it! If you hear a judgment (against a Priest) pray a Hail Mary.” (28. 6. 1939)
“If you see a Priest who celebrates the Holy Mass unworthily then say nothing about him, rather tell it to Me alone! I stand beside him on the altar!” “Oh pray much for My priests, that they’ll love purity above all, that they’ll celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass with pure hands and heart. Certainly the Holy Sacrifice is one and the same even when it is celebrated by an unworthy priest, but the graces called down upon the people is not the same!” (28. 2. 1938)
Mary. Queen of the Clergy, pray for them.

If a father and a mother learn that their son is being molested by a priest, should they refrain from taking action to protect their child on the ground that no priest is ever to be “attacked”? How could Christ have ever revealed this to anyone?

On the contrary, we are all obliged, out of love of God and neighbor, to do what is necessary:

1. to keep, defend, and spread the Faith
2. to prevent scandal
3. to protect minors from unchaste adults

Furthermore, we should fuflill the above duties even if doing so entails criticism of the actions of Popes, bishops, priests, or anyone else.

The above points should be obvious to all Catholics. They are all covered extensively in the catechism that Pope John Paul II promulgated. Just check its index.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

I want to add that the honor Jesus gave Judas (who was far worse than Cardinal Law, or anyone) - the unspeakable honor of sitting with Him at the Last Supper table, makes the honor JPII gave Law, the post of Archpriest of a Basilica, pale into nothingness!

So as far as imitating Christ, you could argue JPII did not bestow enough honor on the sinner!

Before we drown in a sea of sentimentality and start urging Pope Benedict XVI to canonize Judas Iscariot, let’s remember that God gave to his Church the disciplinary power of excommunication (*Mt *18:14), and that he provided it for a reason. Let’s remember, too, that the meekness of the Incarnate Son of God is only one facet of his human nature.

There are no real conflicts setting the following concepts at odds with one another: defending the Faith, preventing scandal, forgiving the repentant sinner, using the disciplinary authority that Christ grants to the Holy Father and the bishops, protecting children, and proclaiming God’s love.

To think that such conflicts exist is to be confused about the Catholic Faith.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Eliza10]

If a father and a mother learn that their son is being molested by a priest, should they refrain from taking action to protect their child on the ground that no priest is ever to be “attacked”? …

Obviously not.

 

[Eliza10]

Before we drown in a sea …

There are no real conflicts…To think that such conflicts exist is to be confused about the Catholic Faith…

You quoted what I said, but your comment had absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

It seems you missed the point entirely.

Perhaps you rushed to judgement of me, thinking my point was meerly sentimental, and not theological.

In the same way, you are rushing to judgement of a very great and very holy pope.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Before we drown in a sea of sentimentality and start urging Pope Benedict XVI to canonize Judas Iscariot, let’s remember that God gave to his Church the disciplinary power of excommunication (*Mt *18:14), and that he provided it for a reason.

If you perceive the sanction of excommunication as a “power”, then you only show that you do not understand it.

:twocents:
tee

 

[Eliza10]

Before we drown in a sea of sentimentality and start urging Pope Benedict XVI to canonize Judas Iscariot,…

This is really pretty flippant. If you read my posts, I said Judas is the Cain of God. You cannot read my posts and think that canonizing Judas is where my “sentamentatity” could possibly take me.

If you are missing the point and jumping so completely to erroneous conclusions so MUCH here, odds are, **you are missing the point entirely of Pope JPII. **

… let’s remember that God gave to his Church the disciplinary power of excommunication (*Mt *18:14),…

Is this what you are thinking???

Jesus did not excommunicate Judas. Think of that!

Don’t be a harsh judge!

You will be judged with the same measure that you judge others.

 

[LilyM]

Please tell that to the parents of boys who were sexually abused by priests during the pontificate of Pope John Paul II.

Excuse me??? Yes a lot of scandals came to light during JP2’s reign - a huge percentage of them relating to occurences of abuse that happened well before his pontificate - as in dating back to the 1940s and 1950s. Are you seriously suggesting that as a statistical fact there was more abuse occurring during his pontificate than any other just because more may have been reported? We have absolutely no way of knowing that this is so.

Unless and until

a) you know exactly what information he had on which to base the actions he took, including appointing or disciplining his bishops (which you never will) and

b) you know exactly what action he DID take (which you never will) and

c) you know to what extent certain of the Bishops covered up entirely on their own initiative (which you never will - although given their track record of obedience in other areas I think it highly likely that most of it was)

then you have absolutely no call to be judging the man.

 

[bones_IV]

Excuse me??? Yes a lot of scandals came to light during JP2’s reign - a huge percentage of them relating to occurences of abuse that happened well before his pontificate - as in dating back to the 1940s and 1950s. Are you seriously suggesting that as a statistical fact there was more abuse occurring during his pontificate than any other just because more may have been reported? We have absolutely no way of knowing that this is so.

Unless and until

a) you know exactly what information he had on which to base the actions he took, including appointing or disciplining his bishops (which you never will) and

b) you know exactly what action he DID take (which you never will) and

c) you know to what extent certain of the Bishops covered up entirely on their own initiative (which you never will - although given their track record of obedience in other areas I think it highly likely that most of it was)

then you have absolutely no call to be judging the man.

:clapping:

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

In addition to watching the PBS documentary Hand of God (suitable only for those who are old enough and strong enough in their faith), those interested in the reasons why Pope John Paul II cannot be beatified should be aware that the Pontiff, merely by reading one of the world’s major newspapers, could have become aware of the sexual abuse scandal in the priesthood as early as 1997.

The Pope didn’t need to be informed by his bishops or anyone in the Vatican as to what was happening on his watch. He had only to read Peter Steinfels’s news report in the July 25, 1997, edition of The New York Times. In an article entitled “$120 Million Damage Award For Sexual Abuse by Priest,” Steinfels reported that a Texas jury had awarded that amount on finding that the Diocese of Dallas had disregarded evidence that a priest had been guilty of the sexual abuse of boys. The jury also found that the diocese had attempted to conceal this scandal. The bishop of the diocese was Bishop Charles Grahmann.

Here is a link to the article:

select.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=F40914F93C580C768EDDAE0894DF494D81

Is it not the case that the Vicar of Christ should have known what every reader of *The New York Times *could have known? Moreover, is it not the case that John Paul II should have taken decisive action immediately? Can you imagine Pope St. Pius X or St. Charles Borromeo not taking decisive and immediate action in such a situation?

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[LilyM]

In addition to watching the PBS documentary Hand of God (suitable only for those who are old enough and strong enough in their faith), those interested in the reasons why Pope John Paul II cannot be beatified should be aware that the Pontiff, merely by reading one of the world’s major newspapers, could have become aware of the sexual abuse scandal in the priesthood as early as 1997.

The Pope didn’t need to be informed by his bishops or anyone in the Vatican as to what was happening on his watch. He had only to read Peter Steinfels’s news report in the July 25, 1997, edition of The New York Times. In an article entitled “$120 Million Damage Award For Sexual Abuse by Priest,” Steinfels reported that a Texas jury had awarded that amount on finding that the Diocese of Dallas had disregarded evidence that a priest had been guilty of the sexual abuse of boys. The jury also found that the diocese had attempted to conceal this scandal. The bishop of the diocese was Bishop Charles Grahmann.

Here is a link to the article:

select.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=F40914F93C580C768EDDAE0894DF494D81

Is it not the case that the Vicar of Christ should have known what every reader of *The New York Times *could have known? Moreover, is it not the case that John Paul II should have taken decisive action immediately? Can you imagine Pope St. Pius X or St. Charles Borromeo not taking decisive and immediate action in such a situation?

Keep and spread the Faith.

The New York Times? You mean the same New York Times whose star reporter Jayson Blair was exposed back in 2003 as a huge fabricator of facts and stories? If they tried to tell me my own name I’d make them produce my birth certificate to prove it!

I’ve had some experience with media, two of my friends having been involved 10 years ago in an event that was major news in our area. I read the newspapers and watched the tv and saw account after account which had almost literally EVERY fact wrong - names, dates, locations, most everything that I could independently verify.

JP2, being the most popular Pope of all times, probably knew better than to NOT take media reports with a sizeable grain of salt.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

The New York Times? You mean the same New York Times whose star reporter Jayson Blair was exposed back in 2003 as a huge fabricator of facts and stories? If they tried to tell me my own name I’d make them produce my birth certificate to prove it!

I’ve had some experience with media, two of my friends having been involved 10 years ago in an event that was major news in our area. I read the newspapers and watched the tv and saw account after account which had almost literally EVERY fact wrong - names, dates, locations, most everything that I could independently verify.

JP2, being the most popular Pope of all times, probably knew better than to NOT take media reports with a sizeable grain of salt.

The New York Times article to which I linked was written, not by Jayson Blair, but by religion reporter Peter Steinfels.

I invite anyone to identify any inaccuracies in Steinfels’s report, and to inform us of the grounds for calling them inaccuracies.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[pnewton]

Since St. Peter was sorry for what he had done and Cardinal Law was sorry for what he had allowed to be done, every Catholic, imitating God himself, must forgive them. Of course.

Nonetheless, there is a big difference between granting forgiveness and granting a new honor in addition to someone’s current office in the Church. Sometimes, granting a new honor to the forgiven sinner should be ruled out because of the scandal that may ensue.

Why? So a scandal ensues. Christianity is a scandal and was founded on a scandal. We need not fear if an act of mercy and forgiveness creates a scandal to the world. Jesus was extremely forgiving with tax collectors and prostitutes. He made a tax collector an apostle and a prostitute a close disciple. Perhaps Jesus shouldn’t be consider worthy of honor for his scandal?

[

[1 Cor 1:23](http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23)[ But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; ](http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23)](http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23)

Again the sex abuse scandal was but one part or the pontificate, which was in turn a part of the life of this man. It is not the whole. The Church is not America only.

 

[LilyM]

Since St. Peter was sorry for what he had done and Cardinal Law was sorry for what he had allowed to be done, every Catholic, imitating God himself, must forgive them. Of course.

Nonetheless, there is a big difference between granting forgiveness and granting a new honor in addition to someone’s current office in the Church. Sometimes, granting a new honor to the forgiven sinner should be ruled out because of the scandal that may ensue. This was the situation in the case of Cardinal Law.

People may well ask themselves: “Just how seriously does the Catholic Church take the sexual abuse of minors if she now gives this honor to Cardinal Law?”

Again, please see CCC 2284-2287.

Keep and spread the Faith.

Excuse me again, exactly how many offices did St Paul have within the church before he stopped persecuting Christians? Was he just forgiven his atrocities or was he forgiven AND trusted and honoured?

And I defy you to say that he did was not every bit as scandalous and damaging, if not more, than anything Cardinal Law may have done.

 

[chicago]

Again the sex abuse scandal was but one part or the pontificate, which was in turn a part of the life of this man. It is not the whole. The Church is not America only.

Is anyone else wondering why Mr. O’Brien is so hung up on this partiulcar issue?

In any case, perhaps we ought to ask him to do something productive with his energy by getting a job as “the devil’s advocate.”

 

[pnewton]

Excuse me again, exactly how many offices did St Paul have within the church before he stopped persecuting Christians? Was he just forgiven his atrocities or was he forgiven AND trusted and honoured?
.

I forgot about St. Paul. By the way, in the verse I quoted, the Greek word for stumbling block is skandalon, from which we get scandal.

 

[Fergal]

CHRIST’S DIVINE LOVE, WISDOM AND POWER
NEVER ATTACK A PRIEST
“Jesus, Mary, I love You, Save Souls.”
CRITICISM OF PRIESTS

Our Lord’s revelations to Mutter Vogel
“One should NEVER attack a priest, even when he’s in error, rather one should pray and do penance that I’ll grant him My grace again. He alone fully represents Me, even when he doesn’t live after My example!” (page 29, Mutter Vogel’s Worldwide Love, St. Grignion Publishing House, Altoting, South Germany (29. 6. 1929)).
When a Priest falls we should extend him a helping hand THROUGH PRAYER AND NOT THROUGH ATTACKS! “I myself will be his judge, NO ONE BUT I!” “Whoever voices judgment over a priest has voiced it over Me; child, never let a Priest be attacked, take up his defense.” (Feast of Christ the King 1937) "Child, Never judge your confessor, rather pray much for him and offer every Thursday, through the hands of My blessed Mother, Holy Communion (for Him) (18.6. 1939)&nsp; “Never again accept an out-of-the-way word about a Priest, and speak no unkind word (about them) EVEN IF IT WERE TRUE! Every Priest is My Vicar and My heart will be sickened and insulted because of it! If you hear a judgment (against a Priest) pray a Hail Mary.” (28. 6. 1939)
“If you see a Priest who celebrates the Holy Mass unworthily then say nothing about him, rather tell it to Me alone! I stand beside him on the altar!” “Oh pray much for My priests, that they’ll love purity above all, that they’ll celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass with pure hands and heart. Certainly the Holy Sacrifice is one and the same even when it is celebrated by an unworthy priest, but the graces called down upon the people is not the same!” (28. 2. 1938)
Mary. Queen of the Clergy, pray for them.

Oh what a powerful message. ( Mea Culpa x infinity)
I am going to print that one out and keep it in my prayer book.

 

[Eliza10]

The New York Times? You mean the same New York Times whose star reporter Jayson Blair was exposed back in 2003 as a huge fabricator of facts and stories? …
I’ve had some experience with media, two of my friends having been involved 10 years ago in an event that was major news in our area. I read the newspapers and watched the tv and saw account after account which had almost literally EVERY fact wrong - names, dates, locations, most everything that I could independently verify…

Steve O’Brien responded: “The New York Times article to which I linked was written, not by Jayson Blair, but by religion reporter Peter Steinfels.”

Lily didn’t say the article was written by Jayson Blair. Go back and read what she wrote, since you missed it. You have missed a lot in this thread that people have said to you.

Since you have demonstrated that you overlook so much here in this thread, how can your conclusions of what you read in the Times be credible?

The Times article that you gave the link to can be accessed by members of that site only.

So I haven’t read it. But tell us, Steve O’Brien, why you are strongly moved by an article by this Peter Steinfels? **What is it that makes Steinfels so credible to you? **What proof do you have that he is any different than Jayson Blair - since the Times enthusiastically prints stuff of that ilk?

A lot of the responders to your post in this thread recieve Our Eucharistic Lord faithfully at least weekly, and make regular confession. They may not write for big newspapers and get the worldly acclaim that Steinfels gets, but remember that Our Lord has a habit of revealing his wisdom to the simple of this world. Lowly fisherman and such!

And who are you aligned with anyway - those on the Times staff who are seeking to discredit the Holy Roman Catholic Church in any way they can, or those fellow believing Catholics here who are receivers of the extrodinary graces of Our Lord, from Whom all wisdom comes?

Because those on this thread are offering you godly wisdom so you can discern this matter better, and you are ignoring it.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

Those Catholics who are willing to confront reality can read the report of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice on the sexual abuse of minors by priests. This study was commissioned by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops and is posted on the bishops’ Web site:

nccbuscc.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/

Christ teaches us not to allow scandals in the pontificate of John Paul II or any other pontificate to undermine our faith, but he does ***not ***teach us to deny or ignore the existence of such scandals. This is clear from the parables of the weeds in the wheat field (Mt 13:24-30) and the bad fish in the net (Mt 13:47-50).

Another Biblical passage to keep in mind when we discuss the current crisis in the human dimensions of the Catholic Church is the following:

"And whoever receives one such little child for my sake, recieves me. But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it were better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

**“Woe to the world because of scandals! For it must needs be that scandals come, but woe to the man through whom scandal does come!” (Mt 18:5-7; CCD translation).

Keep and spread the Faith.