“Late Pope Could Be Saint Soon.” How? WHY?

[Carrie_Andrews]

Don’t panic. All holy men and women have had their detractors. It is to be expected that there will be some to rush to the task on a leader who has lead so long. They will have no bearing on the outcome.

This is so true, and I feel like if I read one more of Steves posts I’m going to swallow my tongue out of pure frustration. Now he’s on about nuclear war, not that I disagree, I just feel a bit like a dog who has been thrown a bone.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Like St Maximillian Kolbe, who’s cannonization was also disputed, the final say will be Heaven’s.

Two verified miracles that can be attributed to John-Paul’s intercession.

If you don’t like it. take it upstairs–WAY upstairs.

 

[Sir_Knight]

1. Scandalous Masses. Masses that took place in Mexico, South America, and Africa which were filled with Pagan rituals such as using perfumed water and ornaments consecrated to African tribal religions in the Mass. The Use of a giant Buddhist Censor to burn incensce in the Vatican during a certain interfaith meeting. Allowing Anglicans to celebrate their Mass in Catholic Churches, Celebrating Mass with images of Buddha alongside Christ. etc. etc.

All of that is sort of alarming Do you have references for any of these?

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

Cannot? Where in church teaching do you find that a pope who has a scandal in the church can not be canonized? I am curious where you came up with this prohibition.

Let’s be logical. Catholicism is the epitome of logic and rationality.

If Pope John Paul II’s reactions to the abortion crisis and the child molestation crisis were adequate, then it follows that the Church’s teaching on abortion and child molestation cannot be true.

How can abortion be murder if you can support its legalization as a politician and still be allowed to present yourself as a Catholic in good standing, even receiving Holy Communion?

How can a priest’s molestation of an altar boy be an outrage and a sacrilege if bishops can knowingly allow this to happen without decisive and immediate disciplinary reactions on the part of the reigning Pope?

So, either Pope John Paul II is a saint and abortion and molestation are not mortal sins, or else abortion and molestation are mortal sins and Pope John Paul II cannot be a saint.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[AmyS]

Let’s be logical. Catholicism is the epitome of logic and rationality.

If Pope John Paul II’s reactions to the abortion crisis and the child molestation crisis were adequate, then it follows that the Church’s teaching on abortion and child molestation cannot be true.

How can abortion be murder if you can support its legalization as a politician and still be allowed to present yourself as a Catholic in good standing, even receiving Holy Communion?

How can a priest’s molestation of an altar boy be an outrage and a sacrilege if bishops can knowingly allow this to happen without decisive and immediate disciplinary reactions on the part of the reigning Pope?

So, either Pope John Paul II is a saint and abortion and molestation are not mortal sins, or else abortion and molestation are mortal sins and Pope John Paul II cannot be a saint.

Keep and spread the Faith.

Your reasoning makes absolutly no sense… And, again, it is not us who determines Pope John Paul II is a Saint, it is in the hands of God. You have no clue or idea what confessions Pope John Paul II made and you are not his judge, God is.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Let’s be logical. Catholicism is the epitome of logic and rationality.

If Pope John Paul II’s reactions to the abortion crisis and the child molestation crisis were adequate, then it follows that the Church’s teaching on abortion and child molestation cannot be true.

How can abortion be murder if you can support its legalization as a politician and still be allowed to present yourself as a Catholic in good standing, even receiving Holy Communion?

How can a priest’s molestation of an altar boy be an outrage and a sacrilege if bishops can knowingly allow this to happen without decisive and immediate disciplinary reactions on the part of the reigning Pope?

So, either Pope John Paul II is a saint and abortion and molestation are not mortal sins, or else abortion and molestation are mortal sins and Pope John Paul II cannot be a saint.

Keep and spread the Faith.

Problem is, your arguments aren’t logical. Sorry.
If Pope John Paul II’s reactions to the abortion crisis and the child molestation crisis were adequate, then it follows that the Church’s teaching on abortion and child molestation cannot be true.

The above is a non sequiter. John Paul’s “reactions” to abortion and child molestation do not ‘equal’ a refutation or an endorsement of the Church’s teachings on same. And what do you mean by ‘reactions’? What were Pius XII’s “reactions”, do you think, to the Nazi genocide? What were the reactions of various Popes to the Black Death, to the Norse invasions, the Protestant Reformation etc.? Does the fact that the Black Death decimated Europe, the Norse invaded various areas with piracy, pillage, rape and murder, and the Protestant Reformation fractured Christianity mean that the “reactions” of the Popes at the times were inadequate and that therefore Church teaching on murder, famine, and the entire fabric of Catholicism ‘cannot be true?’

How can abortion be murder if you can support its legalization as a politician and still be allowed to present yourself as a Catholic in good standing, even receiving Holy Communion?

That abortion is murder exists despite politicians and their posturing and despite actions by anybody on anything whatsoever. Ditto to any kind of wrong action. They are wrong not depending on whether a bishop does X or the Pope says Y.

So, either Pope John Paul II is a saint and abortion and molestation are not mortal sins, or else abortion and molestation are mortal sins and Pope John Paul II cannot be a saint.

Total false dichotomy, false premise. . .strawman.

You’re obviously sincerely seeking answers–but please, start listening and please don’t let yourself be confused. Your above examples show that you are very confused, indeed.

 

[LilyM]

Let’s be logical. Catholicism is the epitome of logic and rationality.

If Pope John Paul II’s reactions to the abortion crisis and the child molestation crisis were adequate, then it follows that the Church’s teaching on abortion and child molestation cannot be true.

How can abortion be murder if you can support its legalization as a politician and still be allowed to present yourself as a Catholic in good standing, even receiving Holy Communion?

How can a priest’s molestation of an altar boy be an outrage and a sacrilege if bishops can knowingly allow this to happen without decisive and immediate disciplinary reactions on the part of the reigning Pope?

So, either Pope John Paul II is a saint and abortion and molestation are not mortal sins, or else abortion and molestation are mortal sins and Pope John Paul II cannot be a saint.

Keep and spread the Faith.

So do you think every wife who takes back a cheating husband who begs her forgiveness is by that action condoning adultery and demonstrating a belief that adultery is not a mortal sin???

You think the fact that Jesus didn’t punish the woman caught in adultery - at all - in ANY way means that he approved of her sin?

 

[Eliza10]

.Don’t panic. All holy men and women have had their detractors…

True. Good reminder.

. It is to be expected that there will be some to rush to the task on a leader who has lead so long. They will have no bearing on the outcome.

Yes. But I do want my Guardian Angel to whack me over the head good and hard if I am ever part of a mob of Saint-detractors.

 

[AmyS]

So you think every wife who takes back a cheating husband who begs her forgiveness is by that action condoning adultery and demonstrating a belief that adultery is not a mortal sin???

You think the fact that Jesus didn’t punish the woman caught in adultery in ANY way means that he approved of her sin?

That is such a great point!

 

[Eliza10]

This is so true, and I feel like if I read one more of Steves posts I’m going to swallow my tongue out of pure frustration. Now he’s on about nuclear war, not that I disagree, I just feel a bit like a dog who has been thrown a bone.

Yes. Aren’t we all done with Steve now? We’ve heard what he has to say and we *know *he doesn’t want to hear what we have to say.

 

[AmyS]

Yes. Aren’t we all done with Steve now? We’ve heard what he has to say and we *know *he doesn’t want to hear what we have to say.

I haven’t posted or vistied here for a couple months… So this is my first run in with Steve. I understand the frustration. He will be in my prayers tonight. I am sure we will all be in his.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

Steve O’Brien keeps recommending a PBS documentary, but then giving the gnostic qualifier “only for those who are old enough and strong enough in their faith”

tee
(Who would not enter a strength-of-faith competition with anyone, but bets he is at least twice as old as Steve O’Brien)

I’d like Gorilla to know that there’s a difference between a Gnostic and a Catholic.

Some younger teenagers may be lurking on this forum. If you wish to see why I don’t think that a fourteen-year-old should watch the PBS documentary Hand of God, view it. Here’s the link again:

pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/handofgod/

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Eliza10]

This:

…So, either Pope John Paul II is a saint and abortion and molestation are not mortal sins, or else abortion and molestation are mortal sins and Pope John Paul II cannot be a saint.
…

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[Steve_O_Brien]

So do you think every wife who takes back a cheating husband who begs her forgiveness is by that action condoning adultery and demonstrating a belief that adultery is not a mortal sin???

You think the fact that Jesus didn’t punish the woman caught in adultery - at all - in ANY way means that he approved of her sin?

In the negative to both questions.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who supports the legalized murder of unborn children, is NOT begging the Catholic Church for forgiveness! And Nancy Pelosi is just one example!

Please see the media release of American Life League:

all.org/article.php?id=10901

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Let’s be logical. Catholicism is the epitome of logic and rationality.

If Pope John Paul II’s reactions to the abortion crisis and the child molestation crisis were adequate, then it follows that the Church’s teaching on abortion and child molestation cannot be true.

How can abortion be murder if you can support its legalization as a politician and still be allowed to present yourself as a Catholic in good standing, even receiving Holy Communion?

How can a priest’s molestation of an altar boy be an outrage and a sacrilege if bishops can knowingly allow this to happen without decisive and immediate disciplinary reactions on the part of the reigning Pope?

So, either Pope John Paul II is a saint and abortion and molestation are not mortal sins, or else abortion and molestation are mortal sins and Pope John Paul II cannot be a saint.

Keep and spread the Faith.

And if the Pope dealt harshly with them, then others would be saying that he should not be made a saint because he failed to forgive in the same manner that Jesus forgave.

 

[Sir_Knight]

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who supports the legalized murder of unborn children, is NOT begging the Catholic Church for forgiveness! And Nancy Pelosi is just one example!.

That is something between her and her local bishop. The Pope’s job is not to micro-manage the church.

I personally think that, based on what I see, she should be excommunicated along with every other Catholic who publicly supports postions which are in opposition to Catholic church teaching BUT it is NOT my place to judge the local bishop for not taking certain actions which I think that he should. That judgement is reserved for the Father.

As our Lord’s revelations to Mutter Vogel states, we should NEVER attack a priest, even when he’s in error because every Priest is Christ’s Vicar and Jesus’s heart will be sickened and insulted if an unkind word is spoken about a priest EVEN IF IT IS TRUE.

 

[LilyM]

In the negative to both questions.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who supports the legalized murder of unborn children, is NOT begging the Catholic Church for forgiveness! And Nancy Pelosi is just one example!

Please see the media release of American Life League:

all.org/article.php?id=10901

Keep and spread the Faith.

Who says the woman caught in adultery was begging for forgiveness either? She simply didn’t want to be stoned to death for her sins!

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

And if the Pope dealt harshly with them, then others would be saying that he should not be made a saint because he failed to forgive in the same manner that Jesus forgave.

Those others would be diabolically mangling the true notion of Jesus’s forgiveness.

God’s future forgiveness for the repentant does ***NOT ***cancel the Church’s right and obligation to bar obstinate public sinners from Holy Communion and to excommunicate them. If the Church does not have this right, then St. Paul was wrong to warn–harshly and ominously–against sacrilegious Communions in 1 Cor 11:27-32.

This exclusion from Holy Communion is explicitly envisaged in the Church’s legislation (canon 915). Are we to say that Christ’s Church is thereby violating the duty of forgiveness?

We should reject false understandings of forgiveness–false understandings that undermine the Faith and endanger both spiritual and physical lives. Such a distortion is now helping to endanger the natural lives of unborn children, and also the supernatural lives that God intends for them.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[pnewton]

Let’s be logical. Catholicism is the epitome of logic and rationality.
.

Your arguement has a hole big enough to drive all os Arnie Schwartnegger’s SUV’s through side-by-side (Oops, wrong thread analogy)

Even though aborition is a sin, there is no evidence that the pope keeps up with the voting records of all catholic legislatures in every country in the world on every subject. That would be an absurd amount of information. I keep up with the news and live in America and I don’t even know who your talking about. There is a reason why the Catholic Church practices local control on many issues. Even a bishop would have his hands full with a single parish.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

Who says the woman caught in adultery was begging for forgiveness either? She simply didn’t want to be stoned to death for her sins!

Since Jesus forgave her sin, this lady must have been sorry for it, for it is a teaching of the Catholic Church that God will not forgive our sins unless we are sorry for them.

Please see these *CCC *sections: 1450-1451, 1489.

Keep and spread the Faith.