1 Mortal Sin = Hell?

[porthos11]

Kirane:

that’s why I think it is unfair. A man can lead a good life for eighty years or so, and then slip up at the last moment by not attending a Catholic Mass on Sunday and be condemned for all eternity to hell. But the other man who is bad for his entire life was lucky to have met up with a priest one hour before his execution, and he got to confess the thousands of times he caused horrific and unspeakable pain and hurt to others. And he is only sorry because he knows he will go to hell. So he ends up in heaven with all the angels and Saints.

No one goes to hell because he slips up. Slipping up is not a mortal sin. If you commit mortal sin, you know it, because you possess full knowledge and you did it with a deliberate act of the will.

If the hypothetical person “lived a good life” for 80 years and all of a sudden one day decides that he’s tired of the Church’s requirement and will not attend Mass anymore on Sunday and the Church be damned is deliberately turning his back on God and intentionally rejects him. God never forces his grace on anyone. So your hypothetical person knows that it’s a mortal sin and does it anyway, he is willingly choosing hell. There’s nothing unfair about that, since he himself wanted it.

This is because apart from God we can do NOTHING. Our good works are worthless. One thing Christians should always remember that we are NOT SAVED BY WORKS! Our good works are efficacious only when we are in a state of Grace. When a person leaves a state of grace through mortal sin, he cannot merit anyting. Only through the Cross can our works merit anything. So for one in mortal sin, his 80 years of good works are worth nothing.

And yes, if the criminal you mentioned truly repented of his lifetime of sin, offers up his execution as a just temporal punishment and turns to Christ for forgiveness, will indeed get his sins blotted out and he goes to heaven, perhaps with a stop in purgatory. All it takes is one confession: “I raped and murdered a thousand women. I am truly sorry and I ask God and men to forgive me. May God accept my death as a small atonement for my many grave sins, and may he have mercy on me a sinner.”

There is more rejoicing in heaven over this one repentant sinner. God is good.

Don’t try to ask for “fairness” from God, because if God were “fair”, we’d ALL end up in hell. You just be thankful he offers grace before judgment.

 

[petra]

Kirane:

No it doesn’t, because this man had led an entirely good and exemplary life up until the last moment when he just slipped and had the bad luck to die with a mortal sin on his soul, since he wanted to see the sports event, instead of attending Sunday Mass. Just for that one error, he is condemned to eternal hellfire. However, the other person was bad his entire life. He caused nothing but suffering and misery to hundreds of innocent people, young and old, throughout his entire life. It was only one hour before his execution that he repented and confessed his sins because he was sorry since he knew that otherwise he would go to hell. So he gets into heaven eventually. This teaching of Roman Catholicism seems wrong to me because it does not take into account the entire life of the individual.

Salvation is not a result of our good deeds outweighing the bad. If that were the case, we would, in affect, be earning our salvation—and that concept is unbiblical.

It is a result of the spiritual state that we are in upon death.

 

[Kirane]

petra:

It is a result of the spiritual state that we are in upon death.

So even if you had led a good life for your entire life, doing volunteer charitable work in prisons and hospitals and in the Church, this counts for nothing at all, as far as going to hell and suffering eternal fire with one mortal sin on your soul at the moment of death? And even if you had tortured thousands of innocent people for your whole life but one hour before your death had made a confession with sorrow for your sins because you knew you were going to hell otherwise, then since at the moment of death you repented, then you get to be with the angels and saints in heaven?
It seems unfair to put so much emphasis on what is your state 15 minutes before you die, rather than your whole life of 80 years?

 

[LilyM]

Kirane:

So even if you had led a good life for your entire life, doing volunteer charitable work in prisons and hospitals and in the Church, this counts for nothing at all, as far as going to hell and suffering eternal fire with one mortal sin on your soul at the moment of death? And even if you had tortured thousands of innocent people for your whole life but one hour before your death had made a confession with sorrow for your sins because you knew you were going to hell otherwise, then since at the moment of death you repented, then you get to be with the angels and saints in heaven?
It seems unfair to put so much emphasis on what is your state 15 minutes before you die, rather than your whole life of 80 years?

Kirane, it’s called HUMILITY - we need to acknowledge that our own so-called ‘good works’ are - not worthless (far from it) - but worth much less than obedience to God in matters that HE has declared are important - like attending His Church when He asks us to.

And the fact is, as one of the previous posters has said (you don’t appear to have read anyone else’s posts on this thread), we absolutely cannot ‘earn’ our way into heaven. All we can do is HOPE to ‘earn’ the mercy of God to save us from the hell that every last one of us so richly deserves because even our lesser sins are so many and heinous.

You are repeating the same words over and over - ‘it’s unfair it’s unfair it’s unfair’. Well, it’s even less fair to God - who has given us everything, and without whom we are nothing - if we don’t obey Him, if we don’t worship Him in the manner He has asked us to, and if we don’t acknowledge the serious pain that our mortal sin causes Him and repent as soon as we’re aware of it.

 

[banjo]

Kirane:

So even if you had led a good life for your entire life, doing volunteer charitable work in prisons and hospitals and in the Church, this counts for nothing at all, as far as going to hell and suffering eternal fire with one mortal sin on your soul at the moment of death? And even if you had tortured thousands of innocent people for your whole life but one hour before your death had made a confession with sorrow for your sins because you knew you were going to hell otherwise, then since at the moment of death you repented, then you get to be with the angels and saints in heaven?
It seems unfair to put so much emphasis on what is your state 15 minutes before you die, rather than your whole life of 80 years?

Perhaps I should have added verse twenty-four to my previous post.

“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does the same abominable things that the wicked man does, shall he live? **None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, he shall die.” **Ezekiel 18:24

 

[Kirane]

LilyM:

Kirane, it’s called HUMILITY - we need to acknowledge that our own so-called ‘good works’ are - not worthless (far from it) - but worth much less than obedience to God in matters that HE has declared are important - like attending His Church when He asks us to.

That is difficult to understand because it appears to place too much weight on the last fifteen minutes of your life, while ignoring what happened the 80 years before that. Why should the last fifteen minutes of your life count for more than the previous 80x365x24x60 or about 42 million minutes before that?

 

[montanaman]

Kirane:

That is difficult to understand because it appears to place too much weight on the last fifteen minutes of your life, while ignoring what happened the 80 years before that. Why should the last fifteen minutes of your life count for more than the previous 80x365x24x60 or about 42 million minutes before that?

If in the last fifteen minutes of your life you’ve consciously rejected Christ (which is what a mortal sin does) and you die unrepentant, that’s it. This assumes, of course, you meet all the requirements of “mortal sin.”

 

[banjo]

If I may “piggy-back” on your post, montanaman, I believe what you have said agrees with Mt 10:22 - “But he who endures to the end will be saved.”

 

[TAS2000]

Plenty of people have covered that in order to be mortal, the sin has to be willful and done with full knowledge, so let me just add this aspect. WAY simplifying this:

• When we die, we will be judged.
• If we have mortal sin on our soul, we go to hell.
• If we are repentant, we go to heaven.
• We will all die eventually, and we can only die once.

As Christians, we all know this ahead of time. We have been fairly warned. But we don’t know when we will die, or surely we would all repent first, right?

So how many “chances” at death would you like to make it seem more “fair” to you? It isn’t the judgment that is unfair - the same standard applies to all – see points 2&3.

The objection reminds me of the scripture story of the man sending workers to his vineyards. At the end of the day, they all got the same pay, regardless of how long they worked. Our limited human understanding says “that’s not fair” but God sees more than we do.

Or that of the rich man and Lazarus. When the rich man went to hell, he asked to send Lazarus back from the dead to warn his brothers about hell awaiting them. He was told no. If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not listen to anyone. So even though we KNOW what we are risking, we willingly and defiantly do it anyway.

I think this “fair” attitude is indicative of our society, wherein nothing is really MY fault, I’m a VICTIM, and I’m ENTITLED to whatever I WANT, regardless of my own actions. (i.e.- it should all be given to me.) Otherwise it isn’t fair.

 

[LatinCat]

cocot:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, "Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs (CCC 1035).

Can someone elaborate a little more on this?
For instance missing mass and then dying. Surely, this doesn’t warrant damnation?
What if you are in a state of mortal sin, but you are repentant?
I can understand this if you are in mortal sin and not repentant.

Purposely missing mass with out a very good reason, (emergency, lack of availability of a Catholic Church, sickness, etc). is a mortal sin. And yes, if a person dies unrepentant of this sin, then they will go to hell. If they are repentant and have a firm intention of going to confession as soon as possible, then they can still be saved.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Well, if someone thinks a ball game is more important than going to Sunday Mass,

…well…

… those would be his priorities…

… everybody knows the rules …

…so, I guess he has made his decision…

 

[Kirane]

Al Masetti:

Well, if someone thinks a ball game is more important than going to Sunday Mass,

…well…

… those would be his priorities…

… everybody knows the rules …

…so, I guess he has made his decision…

It looks like to me that this Roman Catholic theology which condemns people to hell, while exonerating horrific criminals who repent at the last minute, and sending them to heaven, places too much emphasis on the last fifteen minutes of a person’s life and does not take into proper account the previous 42 million minutes of a person’s life.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Kirane:

It looks like to me that this Roman Catholic theology which condemns people to hell, while exonerating horrific criminals who repent at the last minute, and sending them to heaven, places too much emphasis on the last fifteen minutes of a person’s life and does not take into proper account the previous 42 million minutes of a person’s life.

Actually, it does, and this is where it is distinguished from Protestant (though not Eastern Orthodox) theology. If a terrible sinner happens to repent at the last moment of his life and come to Christ, he would spend a lot of time in purgatory.

Catholic theology recognizes (or teaches, depending on your persepctive) that God is both perfectly just and perfectly merciful. Perfect mercy demands forgiveness, but perfect justice demands punishment. Catholic theology accounts for both.

 

[Kirane]

Lazerlike42:

If a terrible sinner happens to repent at the last moment of his life and come to Christ, he would spend a lot of time in purgatory…

But eventually, he would end up in heaven with the angels and saints, and if someone on earth obtained a plenary indulgence for him, he would go to heaven at that moment?
However, the other man would be doomed to hell for what happened in the last few minutes of his life. According to Roman Catholic theology, is it not correct that his previous 42 million minutes of good works and charity would count for nothing against this last slip up of his where he wanted to watch a ball game instead of going to Sunday Mass.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Kirane:

But eventually, he would end up in heaven with the angels and saints, and if someone on earth obtained a plenary indulgence for him, he would go to heaven at that moment?

No, one cannot obtain a plenary indulgence for the deceased.

However, the other man would be doomed to hell for what happened in the last few minutes of his life. According to Roman Catholic theology, is it not correct that his previous 42 million minutes of good works and charity would count for nothing against this last slip up of his where he wanted to watch a ball game instead of going to Sunday Mass.

I feel as though your problem is still one primarily of seeing heaven and hell as a reward/punishment system. Please read post #12, if you have not already.

 

[hurst]

Kirane:

According to Roman Catholic theology, is it not correct that his previous 42 million minutes of good works and charity would count for nothing against this last slip up of his where he wanted to watch a ball game instead of going to Sunday Mass.

What do you mean “slip up”? You yourself defined the hypothetical person as doing it deliberately. Obviously, his prior “good works” did not have much charity to them or much value to him if he was willing to deliberately throw them all away for the sake of a ball game.

Remember, when we sin mortally, even if we don’t die, we lose the value of all our past good works.

Those who are wicked find it easy to continue since they have nothing of value they are trying to hold on to - they have “nothing to lose”. But people who live virtuously have a lot to lose, and so put more effort into staying on the path.

hurst

 

[hurst]

Lazerlike42:

Kirane:

But eventually, he would end up in heaven with the angels and saints, and if someone on earth obtained a plenary indulgence for him, he would go to heaven at that moment?

No, one cannot obtain a plenary indulgence for the deceased.

Actually, she is correct.

hurst

 

[Lazerlike42]

hurst:

Actually, she is correct.

hurst

Are you sure? I had thought that this was forbade as a result of Tetzel’s indiscretions.

EDIT - I have checked and you are correct

However, by definition a plenary indulgence requires a person to be free of all attachment to sin; how this would play into the application of such an indulgence to the deceased seems to me to be a question that is not entirely clear.

 

[hurst]

Lazerlike42:

However, by definition a plenary indulgence requires a person to be free of all attachment to sin; how this would play into the application of such an indulgence to the deceased seems to me to be a question that is not entirely clear.

To obtain the plenary indulgence, one must indeed be free of sin. So if one were not actually free of sin when they attempted to obtain a plenary indulgence, then they do not actually obtain it. But in that case, it would be a partial indulgence, “prorated” according to one’s disposition. So the deceased will still benefit somewhat.

hurst

 

[Lazerlike42]

hurst:

To obtain the plenary indulgence, one must indeed be free of sin. So if one were not actually free of sin when they attempted to obtain a plenary indulgence, then they do not actually obtain it. But in that case, it would be a partial indulgence, “prorated” according to one’s disposition. So the deceased will still benefit somewhat.

hurst

No doubt. What I am curious about is whether the living person’s total detachment would cut it or if somehow the deceased would need to be totally detatched. I realize that that doesn’t seem possible based on what we know. I just don’t know if it is as clear cut as getting the indulgence and applying it. I mean, the Church has never claimed to have any idea how indulgences actually work in terms of applying them to the dead.