1 Mortal Sin = Hell?

[porthos11]

Kirane:

But eventually, he would end up in heaven with the angels and saints, and if someone on earth obtained a plenary indulgence for him, he would go to heaven at that moment?
However, the other man would be doomed to hell for what happened in the last few minutes of his life. According to Roman Catholic theology, is it not correct that his previous 42 million minutes of good works and charity would count for nothing against this last slip up of his where he wanted to watch a ball game instead of going to Sunday Mass.

His previous 42 million minutes of good works will be worth absolutely nothing. You are correct. When you are not in the state of grace, your good works are worth nothing at all, because we cannot earn our salvation. Only grace saves us. When you deliberately decide to disobey the Church in a grave matter, you have chosen to turn away from grace by spitting in God’s face, while knowing it. Therefore, your 42 million minutes of good works count for nothing. You seem to think good works save us. They don’t. And Protestants will emphasize this even more loudly than Catholics. Our good works cannot merit anything outside of God’s grace.

God does not weigh our good vs. bad on scales. All he sees is did you die in his grace or not.

And your hypothetical criminal who repents and re-enters grace before execution is saved. Because grace remits all eternal debt due to sin. All that matters is the state of your soul at death. If you die accepting God’s grace, you are saved. If you die unrepentant, then you willfully choose damnation. So why should you complain, after all, he knew what’s coming anyway?

Try not to force God to be “fair” because is he were “fair”, we will all go to hell. All of us.

 

[banjo]

Kirane:

It looks like to me that this Roman Catholic theology which condemns people to hell, while exonerating horrific criminals who repent at the last minute, and sending them to heaven, places too much emphasis on the last fifteen minutes of a person’s life and does not take into proper account the previous 42 million minutes of a person’s life.

Would you explain how the teaching of the Catholic Church, in the matter being discussed in this thread, disagrees with what God has spoken through the prophet Ezekiel in chapter 18 verses 21 through 28?

 

[Kirane]

porthos11:

Try not to force God to be “fair” because is he were “fair”, we will all go to hell. .

From another vantage point, it looks like you are “forcing” God to judge whether or not a person will attain heaven or hell depending on the last fifteen minutes of his life. Why are you forcing God to make this type of judgement based on such a miniscule portion of a person’s life, while ignoring such an enormous part of that person’s life, the previous 42 million minutes?

 

[porthos11]

Kirane:

From another vantage point, it looks like you are “forcing” God to judge whether or not a person will attain heaven or hell depending on the last fifteen minutes of his life. Why are you forcing God to make this type of judgement based on such a miniscule portion of a person’s life, while ignoring such an enormous part of that person’s life, the previous 42 million minutes?

I force nothing. This is the way God has ordained. And he doesn’t judge you based on your whole life. He judges you based on the state of your soul at the moment of death. That’s simply the way it works. Even Protestants adhere to this.

Actually God does not decide heaven and hell. The person does. God simply gives him what he wanted.

And I already posted why his previous 42 million minutes go out the window. He is not in a state of grace at death, and good deeds are worthless by themselves.Protestants again adhere to this, even more loudly than Catholics. We are saved only by grace. Outside of that, there is only justice. And God’s justice demands that even the slightest sin merits hell.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Kirane:

It looks like to me that this Roman Catholic theology which condemns people to hell, while exonerating horrific criminals who repent at the last minute, and sending them to heaven, places too much emphasis on the last fifteen minutes of a person’s life and does not take into proper account the previous 42 million minutes of a person’s life.

Agreed. The whole point of “judgement” is to look at one’s life as it was lived as a whole. I agree that there’s no way a just and loving God would condemn or allow to be condemned a person who lived a life as you have described just because he didn’t sit in a pew for an hour one Sunday.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

banjo:

Would you explain how the teaching of the Catholic Church, in the matter being discussed in this thread, disagrees with what God has spoken through the prophet Ezekiel in chapter 18 verses 21 through 28?

I prefer Ezekiel 18:30, myself.

 

[dcdurel]

ReformedCatholic:

Agreed. The whole point of “judgement” is to look at one’s life as it was lived as a whole. I agree that there’s no way a just and loving God would condemn or allow to be condemned a person who lived a life as you have described just because he didn’t sit in a pew for an hour one Sunday.

He didn’t sit in a pew for an hour because he rejected God and his teachings. After all, God created him, keeps him alive, gives him his home, his family, possessions, suffered extremely just to give him the right to heaven, offers Himself in the mass thousands of times daily all over the world and all He askes is obedience and 1 hour a week to thank Him, worship Him, repent and ask for His grace not to sin. Thus, not sitting in a pew for one hour is really a rejection of the good and loving God, for his own selfish reasons.
He goes to hell because he is rejecting God and refuses to repent. God does not reject Him. God forces no one to hell. God loves everyone, even those in hell. He died to give us the grace to repent and turn to him. Everyone is in hell because they don’t want to repent and obey or believe God. It is a free choice.

Just the idea that if someone misses mass it is only not sitting in “a pew for one hour”, is indicative of a mentality that judges the value of God’s teachings by his own reasoning. That is pride. Pride can easily be a mortal sin by itself. The proud person presumes something is seriously sinful ONLY if he understands why it is sinful. He is telling God missing mass is not a bad sin. Thus, he is telling God that He is wrong. Pride is when the person makes himself God, because the person himself presumes to know more than God Himself. Proud people cannot go to heaven, because they would have to admit they are wrong and obey God. They refuse to do this because they are proud and they “know” they are right.

 

[wjp984]

what about all the Protestants who don’t have confesion. Are they all going to Hell? A lot of them think Catholics are going to Hell. Would it not be the ultimate irony if they are the ones who find out that because they denied themselves the sacrament of Reconciliaiton they are sent to Hell. I personally think that it is based on your willingness to confess. If God knows you go to Confession at least the recommended minimum of once a year, then God will forgive your sins. For all we know there might be one last chance for reconciliation even after death for those who seek it before the judgemnet and this option would be only available to the ones who would have otherwise gone anyways. Now, you might have to spend some mextra time in Purgatory for the payment of God’s mercy of allowing you to be saved from damnation in that scenario but the point is, we just don’t know.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Try thinking about it this way. The Old Testament is the “shadowy” version of the New Testament. In other words, everything in the New Testament is in the old, just in an imperfect sense.

For instance. In the Old Testament, we see the imperfect sacrifices of animals. In the New, we see the perfect sacrifice of Christ.

One of the major comparisons between the Old and New Testaments is that most often the Old Testament speaks of things as pertains to earthly life, whereas the New Testament equivalents pertain to eternal life. For instance, in the Old Testament, water saves physical life, such as in the parting of the sea, whereas in the New Testament, water saves eternal life in baptism.

Now given that, consider that a person whom failed to keep Holy the Sabbath day was to suffer the punishment of death. This was physical death. Spiritual death comes to those who fail to keep Holy the New Testament Sabbath, the Lord’s Day.

 

[Giver]

Jesus, who is God, loved us so much that he became man so he could take away our sin. He then gave us his Holy Spirit to keep us free from sin.

Now how can anyone believe that after someone has receive such a gift from God, they could just go out and disobey him, and all they would have to do is say: they are sorry? After which they would be forgiven and be absolved of their sin, and free to go out and disobey him again. St. Peter, St John, and the author of Hebrews didn’t say that was true.

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(2 Peter 2:20-22)”and anyone who has escaped the pollution of the world once by coming to know the Lord and savior Jesus Christ, and who then allows himself to be entangled by it a second time and mastered, will end up in a worse state than he began in.”

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

 

[thistle]

Giver:

Jesus, who is God, loved us so much that he became man so he could take away our sin. He then gave us his Holy Spirit to keep us free from sin.

Now how can anyone believe that after someone has receive such a gift from God, they could just go out and disobey him, and all they would have to do is say: they are sorry? After which they would be forgiven and be absolved of their sin, and free to go out and disobey him again. St. Peter, St John, and the author of Hebrews didn’t say that was true.

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(2 Peter 2:20-22)”and anyone who has escaped the pollution of the world once by coming to know the Lord and savior Jesus Christ, and who then allows himself to be entangled by it a second time and mastered, will end up in a worse state than he began in.”

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

Give it up Giver. Your position has been successfully rebutted by lots of posters in several threads.

 

[Giver]

thistle:

Give it up Giver. Your position has been successfully rebutted by lots of posters in several threads.

Obviously, not very successfully.

 

[thistle]

Giver:

Obviously, not very successfully.

Everyone was very successful in rebutting you but you are too arrogant to admit it. Read all the posts in your threads. All posters defeated your points.
Anyway I guess I should be more charitable to an old delusional man who says he hears voices telling him he is right and everyone else in the world is wrong.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Giver:

Obviously, not very successfully.

Is this sarcasm? Is this a snyde quip at Thistle?

Giver, I am quite confident this is a sarcastic shot at Thistle. This is a sin. According to your own position, you are not being led by the Spirit are not really Christ’s.

 

[cocot]

Giver:

Now how can anyone believe that after someone has receive such a gift from God, they could just go out and disobey him, and all they would have to do is say: they are sorry? After which they would be forgiven and be absolved of their sin, and free to go out and disobey him again. St. Peter, St John, and the author of Hebrews didn’t say that was true.

Wasn’t it Peter himself who denied Christ three times? Talk about someone who had a “personal relationship with Jesus”.

OK, so truly 1 mortal sin can send you to Hell, but I would say the person must have a hardened heart and not be repentant.
I don’t think the guy missing mass fits that.

From a lot of the posts here I take it that everyone must be walking around in a state of grace. Truly we all are sinners and because of our tendency towards sin we sin again even after confession. I know I do, but even after committing a mortal sin who can say that afterwards they are not sorry? So, I would speculate that dying in such a state would not warrant Hell.

As a parent would you punish a child who 99% of the time is good the same as a child who always misbehaves? This mercy shown by the parent to the child is symbolic of the relationship of us to God the Father.

 

[banjo]

ReformedCatholic:

I prefer Ezekiel 18:30, myself.

Which part? “I will judge you?” We know God is our judge. “…according to your ways?” We know we will be judged according to our deeds. "Repent and turn from all your transgressions? That is the message prior to v.30 and reiterated in v.31.

 

[banjo]

**2181 **The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor. Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

Does grave sin = mortal sin?

 

[porthos11]

cocot:

Wasn’t it Peter himself who denied Christ three times? Talk about someone who had a “personal relationship with Jesus”.

OK, so truly 1 mortal sin can send you to Hell, but I would say the person must have a hardened heart and not be repentant.
I don’t think the guy missing mass fits that.

From a lot of the posts here I take it that everyone must be walking around in a state of grace. Truly we all are sinners and because of our tendency towards sin we sin again even after confession. I know I do, but even after committing a mortal sin who can say that afterwards they are not sorry? So, I would speculate that dying in such a state would not warrant Hell.

As a parent would you punish a child who 99% of the time is good the same as a child who always misbehaves? This mercy shown by the parent to the child is symbolic of the relationship of us to God the Father.

You are right, we do not know the state of anyone’s soul when he dies. We can only look at the objective gravity of the offense (for example, the guy intentionally missing Mass) and can even reasonably determine that the sin is mortal (for example, he explicitly and clearly did so to disobey the Church).

But indeed, who can say they’re not sorry? So great is God’s mercy that a simple “My Jesus, mercy” at the moment of death may restore him to grace and salvation, and I think the Savior will not reject any heartfelt plea for mercy. But then, he isn’t dying in the state of mortal sin anymore.

To die in the state of mortal sin means you must be unrepentant. Now Sunday Mass has been bound under pain of grave sin. Therefore if you deliberately and intentionally miss Mass with no good reason, then you have done so out of spite for the Church and her authority given by God. The sin lies in the disobedience then, not so much as the act of missing of Mass. The disobedience requires repentance. If he dies without nary a whiff of repentance, then he dies choosing himself, and God doesn’t force him.

God throws no one into hell. It’s people who willingly walk into it.

 

[Lazerlike42]

**2181 **The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor. Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

Does grave sin = mortal sin?

No. Grave sin refers to the gravity - how bad it is. Mortal sin requires:

1. Grave Matter
2. Full Knowledge
3. Full Consent of the Will

This sin would be mortal if all three conditions were met. So, if a person knowingly and deliberately did not participate while making that choice with full use of the will that would be a mortal sin.

Matter and knowledge are easy to tell. The degree to which someone’s will is fully consenting to an act is a very, very gray area however. All sorts of things may be playing on a person’s will and making him or her not fully culpable.

 

[Sir_Knight]

So if a person KNOWS that the church teaches that it is serious offense to miss mass on Sunday but doesn’t THINK that it is a mortal sin, then it isn’t?

That doesn’t seem right because a person can rationalize and HONESTLY convince themselves that just about anything isn’t a mortal sin.